Ego vs Immortality Framed Forever

[TheDizee]

One just has to look north to see why it was a smart move to not offer petro a full nmc. The hawks are saddled with 4 contracts on players they can’t do anything with, whom are now mad that they are having to go through a rebuild. You don’t saddle yourself by paying a guy on the wrong side of 30 nine million dollars and let him decide whether you can move him when he becomes dead weight.
Had petro been 28 no problem, but he will be 31 shortly after the season starts. We’re also in a pandemic that no one knows when it will return everything back to normal. I say cherish the good times with petro, thank him for his service and move on to trying to win the next cup. Getting nostalgic wins you nothing and will leave you like the trash up north.

everytime you bring up seabrook deal and how it could very likely be 27s future, the posters [mod edit] whine and say that hes better than seabrook and more durable. well hes certainly more durable but everyone has a breaking point eventually. dude will be 31 by start of the next season, his best days are behind him.

 

[Stelmacki]

Didn't Brett Hull leave over an NTC and win the cup the next year with Dallas? He still got his statue and banner and is beloved by everyone and he even played for that stacked Detroit squad. He committed far worse crimes to the fans than Petro leaving over a full nmc imo

Hull was an all time-great, hall of famer and single-handedly saved the franchise from moving. He also is the reason St. Louis hockey is on the map. Pietrangelo only has a chance to, arguably, be one of those things.

 

[BlueSeal]

Hull was an all time-great, hall of famer and single-handedly saved the franchise from moving. He also is the reason St. Louis hockey is on the map. Pietrangelo only has a chance to, arguably, be one of those things.

Pie’s name is on the Cup for the Blues, he’s a greater Blue than Hull just for that.

 

[Stelmacki]

Pie’s name is on the Cup for the Blues, he’s a greater Blue than Hull just for that.

So is Jake Allen’s.

 

[BlueSeal]

So is Jake Allen’s.

Yup! Meanwhile Chopper, Ferderko, Pronger, etc etc etc etc ETC aren’t. BETTER Blues teams have tried and FAILED.

If we’re talking greatest, look at the Cup. Holds all those answers. That’s why losing Pie is different than those other guys and Army should have signed him.

 

[Stelmacki]

Yup! Meanwhile Chopper, Ferderko, Pronger, etc etc etc etc ETC aren’t. BETTER Blues teams have tried and FAILED.

If we’re talking greatest, look at the Cup. Holds all those answers. That’s why losing Pie is different than those other guys and Army should have signed him.

Can’t really sign someone who doesn’t want to be here. It’s like people who are mad at Mozeliak for not signing Stanton.

 

[Xerloris]

Pie’s name is on the Cup for the Blues, he’s a greater Blue than Hull just for that.

You clearly have no idea what Hull did for this city and the kids growing up at the time. There would be no St.Louis Blues without Hull.

 

[Reality Czech]

A GM with no ego who wanted the team to have the best players to succeed would have signed Pie long before Faulk. Now that we know the details, there is NO reason Army couldn’t have come to terms and signed him.

As much as Pie’s personality/ego/etc might have/could have/had any play in this, he’s only an employee and his boss was already making moves and giving out raises long before discussing anything with Pie, so take that as you will.

No matter what, Pie’s # will be retired, he will get a statue and he will be immortalized. Saying that, I still prefer Pat Maroon over him. Sorry not sorry lol.

I'm not disagreeing with the spirit of your post, but how do we know that Petro was even willing to re-sign a year ago? Isn't it possible that he was determined to test FA no matter what we offered, unless it was something really absurd? I honestly don't think Army would do anything to push him out the door, but what if Petro's camp told him straight up we are not going to sign before the contract ends? Would it change people's perspective at all?

I am disappointed Petro left, but I am not really interested in taking sides without knowing exactly how everything went down behind closed doors. I'm sure both sides could have done things differently, but doesn't mean it would have changed the outcome. When you consider the bonuses and the lack of NV state tax, Petro stands to make a lot more money with Vegas. I think that was his top priority, otherwise he wouldn't have Newport representing him. To be honest, I am not sure that this makes Vegas a significantly better team when you factor in giving away Schmidt and not having cap space to add a top 6 center.

Also, please stop comparing Hull and Petro. Hull is an absolute legend that a generation of kids idolized. Petro is a solid D-man who has never been top 3 at his own position.

 

[blues80]

The 1st cup caption puts him in elite player discussion sorry It just does

 

[TruBlu]

The 1st cup caption puts him in elite player discussion sorry It just does

Just because you say it doesn't make it so. It's a team sport, but if you want to point to people having elite contributions to the cup run Petro isn't in first place, not even in second place, imo. Binny, followed by ROR, were the greatest contributing actors in that cup run.

 

[Renard]

Jeff Gordon had an interesting piece in the St. Louis Post Dispatch today about the Pietrangelo contract.

Petro took less money with the Vegas deal than he was offered by the Blues. He did get a no-movement clause, but in order to get it, he has to move himself and his family half way across the country.

Gordon's take on the situation is - Petro wanted out.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Can’t really sign someone who doesn’t want to be here. It’s like people who are mad at Mozeliak for not signing Stanton.

He did want to be here. He just didn't want to take a huge step below his market value to do it.

There is a massive distinction there.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Jeff Gordon had an interesting piece in the St. Louis Post Dispatch today about the Pietrangelo contract.

Petro took less money with the Vegas deal than he was offered by the Blues. He did get a no-movement clause, but in order to get it, he has to move himself and his family half way across the country.

Gordon's take on the situation is - Petro wanted out.

That's just bad reporting, because the difference in taxes means he actually gets more...and that difference only increases because of how much signing bonus money he received, which is a big financial advantage for him.

 

[EastonBlues22]

I'm not disagreeing with the spirit of your post, but how do we know that Petro was even willing to re-sign a year ago? Isn't it possible that he was determined to test FA no matter what we offered, unless it was something really absurd? I honestly don't think Army would do anything to push him out the door, but what if Petro's camp told him straight up we are not going to sign before the contract ends? Would it change people's perspective at all?

We know because it was reported that his camp reached out to Armstrong to talk about an extension, and also reported that Armstrong pushed talks off because of "market uncertainty."

This notion that Pietrangelo was always set on going UFA even way back then is revisionist history.

 

[Stlbluesfan8]

So is Jake Allen’s.

but jake wasn't the captain, didn't score the biggest goal or one of the biggest goals in blues history and didn't have a monster playoff run.

if ROR didn't win the conn smythe, its gotta be Schwartz or petro imo. binnington did have a monster period 1 game 7 against boston, like epic, but I don't know if he was great thru out the run.

just the way I see it I guess.

 

[Reality Czech]

We know because it was reported that his camp reached out to Armstrong to talk about an extension, and also reported that Armstrong pushed talks off because of "market uncertainty."

This notion that Pietrangelo was always set on going UFA even way back then is revisionist history.

OK, fair enough. But we can also agree he wasn't "set on" returning to the Blues either. We don't know what limits ownership set, how far Army was willing to go, or what demands Petro and his agent had. The market certainly is "uncertain." I'm sure both sides are playing the media to save face. Maybe he wasn't set on going to UFA, but he surely knew it might come to that. As did Army, obviously. All the warm fuzzies of captaining a team to the Cup, having a wife with local ties and wanting to become one of the all-time Blues greats don't really matter when we are talking about a difference of millions of dollars.

 

[SwivelSchwartz]

with backes you knew it was legit, with captain creampuff, you can tell its just an act. no legit "family guy" moves his wife and kids to north america's biggest and craziest party city LOL. people can try to justify it all they want lol.

i wish him all the best but people need to drop giving him Pronger treatment. he never was even close to being Pronger 2.0 so stop it right now. The Pronger trade set us back YEARS, this move (or lack of move I guess) is actually gonna benefit us moving forward just like it enabled the Cards to go on a run in 2013 without Albert. (and if they had a real manager and not Matheny, they would have won in 2012 too).

Blues will win a cup before the Knights do.

True, but we did also get Michael Wacha as a comp pick which helped quite a bit

 

[illinidave]

I never got the NMC importance in this deal. Was AP afraid that DA was going to trade the team captain in the latter part of the deal? If that's the case, wouldn't a 5 or 10-team NTC be good enough if he could still get the signing bonus structure? I just couldn't see someone like AP get traded; his skill set IMO will not degrade as much over time as I think some think will (if that makes sense). He's not the speed demon or the flashy scorer; he's the guy you know will come away with the puck almost every time.

Again, I think DA made a mistake in getting Faulk for that term when he did. Sent the wrong message to AP and we're now hamstrung when dealing with Dunner.

 

[Majorityof1]

I never got the NMC importance in this deal. Was AP afraid that DA was going to trade the team captain in the latter part of the deal? If that's the case, wouldn't a 5 or 10-team NTC be good enough if he could still get the signing bonus structure? I just couldn't see someone like AP get traded; his skill set IMO will not degrade as much over time as I think some think will (if that makes sense). He's not the speed demon or the flashy scorer; he's the guy you know will come away with the puck almost every time.

Again, I think DA made a mistake in getting Faulk for that term when he did. Sent the wrong message to AP and we're now hamstrung when dealing with Dunner.

With an NTC (full or partial), the GM could still waive him and send him to ride the bus in Springfield as a measure to force him to accept a trade elsewhere if his contract became really problematic. In the unlikely chance of another expansion draft, the GM could dangle him in front of the new team.

I think most players are worried about injuries diminishing their skills with these type of contracts rather than natural diminishment from aging. Take Tarasenko for example. Let's imagine he comes back from this surgery able to play, but severely diminished because his shoulder will never fully heal. PRetend he is a defensive liability good for 30ish points with poor defense, ie not near his $7.5M contract. Despite having a full NTC, we can waive him or expose him to Seattle. We can even trade them assets to insure they pick him despite a no trade clause.

Those might be small things when you are getting paid Millions either way. But if the player earned the right to get that protection, and can get it elsewhere, why not take it.

 

[TurgPavs]

Yup. The one thing Pietrangelo wanted was the NMC and Army wouldn't give it to him. The main thing he wanted was security Army wouldn't budge on it.

Thats not true. Plenty of talk and at least one article out there that stated that Army did budge on the NMC and offered a partial NMC to Petro.
It came down to Money. Money is the single point that Petro and his agent wanted in the first negotiation, which paid Petro as a top 10 defensemen over the course of that contract, and again during this negotiation.
The Blues offered 64 million over a 8 year deal, he signed for 61+ million on a 7 year deal.
You point out a NMC, Army offered a partial NMC.

Security? moving out of a house where you live year around, into a town where you have never lived before, away from your wife's family, away from your kids school, away from the franchise that drafted you, in a city where you are loved by your fans, on a team where you are respected by your team mates and administration, away from a media base that has treated you very well........and you call this security? You got to be kidding me.
Its about Money, nothing more.

 

[Brian39]

comparing a HOF to 27 is pretty unfair to 27. he will not be a HOF player.

27 is basically equal to a Jim Edmonds or maybe a Scott Rolen (but those players are still IMO better at their sport than 27 was). Very good players but in Edmonds case, not a HOFer.

He has a pretty good shot at the HOF if he wins a Cup in the next 5 years or an Olympic gold in 2022.

He already has a Cup, Olympic gold, World Cup gold, and a World Junior gold. He wore a C on that Cup win and TSN's projection for Team Canada in 2022 had him on the top pairing. Not many guys played top 2 minutes on two different Cup winners, so doing that (plus two best on best international golds) puts him in the conversation. Similarly, 3 best on best golds is pretty rare air to combine with a Cup win.

Barring major injuries that sideline him for 1.5 seasons, he is going to play 1,200 NHL games. He'll hit 700 points if he averages just 36 points a year over the life of this contract, with a small shot at moving into the top 20 of all time D man scoring (he would need to average 47 points a year throughout the contract which means he'd need 2-3 more years like this one and then stay healthy).

He's no Pronger, but at even odds the smart money would be on him eventually getting into the HOF.

 

[Brian39]

Thats not true. Plenty of talk and at least one article out there that stated that Army did budge on the NMC and offered a partial NMC to Petro.
It came down to Money. Money is the single point that Petro and his agent wanted in the first negotiation, which paid Petro as a top 10 defensemen over the course of that contract, and again during this negotiation.
The Blues offered 64 million over a 8 year deal, he signed for 61+ million on a 7 year deal.
You point out a NMC, Army offered a partial NMC.

Security? moving out of a house where you live year around, into a town where you have never lived before, away from your wife's family, away from your kids school, away from the franchise that drafted you, in a city where you are loved by your fans, on a team where you are respected by your team mates and administration, away from a media base that has treated you very well........and you call this security? You got to be kidding me.
Its about Money, nothing more.

You said you wanted the assistant regional manager job and I made you assistant to the regional manager. Why aren't you satisfied?

You said you wanted an interest rate locked in at 2% and I approved you for a loan with a variable 2% interest rate. You got what you wanted, why are you upset?

By definition, a partial NMC is less protection for a player than a full NMC. A refusal to offer a full NMC and instead offer a partial NMC is the team saying in no uncertain terms "we aren't going to commit to keeping you for 7 or 8 years."

We can debate about whether it was wise not to offer him the full NMC he wanted, but this new narrative that Petro was asking for assurance that he wouldn't be moved during the contract because he didn't want to be here is bizarre. One of the sticking points of this negotiation is that the team wasn't willing to put it in writing that Petro wouldn't have to relocate his family after his kids started school. Full stop. That is what a refusal to offer a full NMC was. He went to a place where he got that assurance. Using this as evidence that he didn't really want to be here take some intense mental gymnastics.

 

[TurgPavs]

He has a pretty good shot at the HOF if he wins a Cup in the next 5 years or an Olympic gold in 2022.

He already has a Cup, Olympic gold, World Cup gold, and a World Junior gold. He wore a C on that Cup win and TSN's projection for Team Canada in 2022 had him on the top pairing. Not many guys played top 2 minutes on two different Cup winners, so doing that (plus two best on best international golds) puts him in the conversation. Similarly, 3 best on best golds is pretty rare air to combine with a Cup win.

Barring major injuries that sideline him for 1.5 seasons, he is going to play 1,200 NHL games. He'll hit 700 points if he averages just 36 points a year over the life of this contract, with a small shot at moving into the top 20 of all time D man scoring (he would need to average 47 points a year throughout the contract which means he'd need 2-3 more years like this one and then stay healthy).

He's no Pronger, but at even odds the smart money would be on him eventually getting into the HOF.

I would say if he hits those numbers, they will be lower in scoring and GP, then both Gonchar and M Schneider, and neither are in the HOF.
The guy that I am still surprised that is not in the HOF is Brad McCrimmon, 1222 GP, 403 Points, and a +443, which I believe is a mark that no other defensemen has hit with 1100+ GP.

 

[TurgPavs]

You said you wanted the assistant regional manager job and I made you assistant to the regional manager. Why aren't you satisfied?

You said you wanted an interest rate locked in at 2% and I approved you for a loan with a variable 2% interest rate. You got what you wanted, why are you upset?

By definition, a partial NMC is less protection for a player than a full NMC. A refusal to offer a full NMC and instead offer a partial NMC is the team saying in no uncertain terms "we aren't going to commit to keeping you for 7 or 8 years."

We can debate about whether it was wise not to offer him the full NMC he wanted, but this new narrative that Petro was asking for assurance that he wouldn't be moved during the contract because he didn't want to be here is bizarre. One of the sticking points of this negotiation is that the team wasn't willing to put it in writing that Petro wouldn't have to relocate his family after his kids started school. Full stop. That is what a refusal to offer a full NMC was. He went to a place where he got that assurance. Using this as evidence that he didn't really want to be here take some intense mental gymnastics.

NO the argument was that the Blues where not budging. Reports are that the Blues moved quite a bit even offering a partial NMC.
Regardless of the NMC situation, the Blues where not going to match the salary + signing bonus that he wanted.

Money drove this Petro bus, the same way it did with his first contract.

 

[DangerDarrin]

To me, I value legacy more than money or whatever else that certain player is chasing. Especially when he will make over 100 mil in his career. Is there a chance they might have moved Petro once his play started deteriorating? Sure...But then it is 100% on the GM and owner and then the fans can protest and raise hell all they want. I don't feel that would happen though, to be honest. This situation is different and I feel will tarnish his Blues legacy. Look at how much Bobby Plager is loved in St.Louis; That dude has, and always will bleed blue and Petro could have been the same thing. Instead, Petro gave up so many great things NOT on a contract to go to play for a different team. The decision was up to him and he chose his way. Time to move on and focus on the future. I loved Petro, was always a big supporter but I am not gonna lie, I have a little resentment towards him, not management, for the way everything was played out