Proposal: EDM - CGY

[Ledge And Dairy]

You seem to be trying to spin the fact that hanifin is better defensively into a negative?

Hanifin is better defensively? We can both very easily agree on that?

I don't think Rasmus Andersson is better offensively, or at least not in any meaningful way. Their offensive results are a spitting image of eachother, both EV and on the PP

If rasmus offensive results are worthy of being a number 1 dman, than Hanifins (virtually identical) offensive results make him that as well.

You keep trying to paint Andersson as a step above offensively, when he isn't.



About Bouchard Ekholm.

A) Yes, Ekholm has been better than Bouchard EV over the last 3 years since he is much better defensively while putting up similar offense EV

The reason people (and not everyone) view Bouchard as better is 3 reasons

1: Age: Bouchard is on the way up being 22,23,24,25 in those seasons, Ekholm is 31,32,33, 34 in those seasons. This does not apply as Hanifin and Andersson are the same age
2: Evan Bouchard is one of the best PP weapons in the NHL. Ekholm does not contribute in this area. Again, since Hanifin and Andersson have similar PP results, this does not apply.
3: Bouchards EV offense is better than Ekholms, even despite year 1 of the sample being his rookie year. Andersson does not have said edge

But looking at the last 3 years, give me Ekholm. Going forward, give me bouchard.

Your lack of reading ability is showing again. I specifically said "Any player who partners with Tanev massively has their defensive numbers skyrocket."

It's not just Tanev tho. He's the big one where guys have WAY better results with him, but guys also have better results with Weegar and other dmen.

There's not many guys who have had Hanifin and Andersson as partner's separately in the same year unfortunately

I am not arguing Hanifin better defensively. He is but it's not by a whole lot. As for offensively you are completely wrong. Hanifin is a good puck mover (hence why I called him a PMD like 3 times now). He is good at rushing the puck up ice with his speed. He also shoots the puck a lot, but the shots generally miss the net or are pretty easy saves for the goalie. As for Andersson, he has a great slapper and is far more technically gifted with the puck than Hanifin. Hanifin simply pads his counting stats with his vastly higher shot count.

Nobody is arguing Hanifin isn't a good defenseman here. The difference is Andersson is around the 20-25 rank in the league and Hanifin is around 30-35 in the league.

 

[dgibb10]

I am not arguing Hanifin better defensively. He is but it's not by a whole lot. As for offensively you are completely wrong. Hanifin is a good puck mover (hence why I called him a PMD like 3 times now). He is good at rushing the puck up ice with his speed. He also shoots the puck a lot, but the shots generally miss the net or are pretty easy saves for the goalie. As for Andersson, he has a great slapper and is far more technically gifted with the puck than Hanifin. Hanifin simply pads his counting stats with his vastly higher shot count.

Nobody is arguing Hanifin isn't a good defenseman here. The difference is Andersson is around the 20-25 rank in the league and Hanifin is around 30-35 in the league.

Hanifin pads his goal and assist numbers, and also his teams on ice goals numbers, and also his teams shot numbers, and also his teams expected goals numbers? That just sounds like being a good defensemen tbh.

If Hanafin was all expected goals, no real goals that statement would have some weight.

But he isn't.

Hanifin has 31 goals since 21-22. He has 31.05 expected goals. This is more than Andersson has despite Andersson getting 200 more minutes on the PP. Seems like they aren't padded.

You've made a lot of weird stylistic claims without any substance behind them.

"Andersson is a number 1 D and Hanifin is a number 2 because I say so" is basically your entire argument.

They don't get used more than one another outside of the coin flip choice to use Andersson more on the PP, and Hanifin has tended to get the slightly harder minutes.

Here is my claim:

Hanifin is the better PK guy
Hanifin is better defensively
They are virtually identical offensively and on the PP, both in terms of individual production and on ice results.

Andersson does draw more penalties I'll give him that.

 

[Drake1588]

If they are out (and not tied with the Oilers, as they are today), Calgary is going to have many options when it comes to an Andersson trade. I have to think they'll come up with a rationale to avoid trading him within the province.

It's not true that they won't make moves with one another, and you do what you need to do to help your team. Yet this is a key piece and he's going to generate plenty of competing offers. I doubt Conroy does it if he doesn't have to, and he doesn't have to do it. That rivalry is real.

 

[dgibb10]

I am not arguing Hanifin better defensively. He is but it's not by a whole lot. As for offensively you are completely wrong. Hanifin is a good puck mover (hence why I called him a PMD like 3 times now). He is good at rushing the puck up ice with his speed. He also shoots the puck a lot, but the shots generally miss the net or are pretty easy saves for the goalie. As for Andersson, he has a great slapper and is far more technically gifted with the puck than Hanifin. Hanifin simply pads his counting stats with his vastly higher shot count.

Nobody is arguing Hanifin isn't a good defenseman here. The difference is Andersson is around the 20-25 rank in the league and Hanifin is around 30-35 in the league.

Also 1 point.

Andersson without Hanifin on the ice has a 50.4% xGoals share in his career. Not bad, but nothing to write home about.

 

[Figgy44]

If they are out (and not tied with the Oilers, as they are today), Calgary is going to have many options when it comes to an Andersson trade. I have to think they'll come up with a rationale to avoid trading him within the province.

It's not true that they won't make moves with one another, and you do what you need to do to help your team. Yet this is a key piece and he's going to generate plenty of competing offers. I doubt Conroy does it if he doesn't have to, and he doesn't have to do it. That rivalry is real.

Rivalry aside, I'm not sure the Oilers have what the Flames are looking for. Flames are looking for value, but value wise, Conroy wants a portion of the value to be potential star players (C/D) who are closer to the NHL, than players not yet drafted. Oilers don't have and cannot afford to move players like that which is why Conroy would easily have other offers he prefers unless Edmonton does something like what OP mentioned.

I'm sure the two teams could make a trade, but I don't think it's an Andersson/Weegar calibre deal. Maybe a trade for an expiring contract depth player at the TDL due to injuries or something.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Hanifin pads his goal and assist numbers, and also his teams on ice goals numbers, and also his teams shot numbers, and also his teams expected goals numbers? That just sounds like being a good defensemen tbh.

If Hanafin was all expected goals, no real goals that statement would have some weight.

But he isn't.

Hanifin has 31 goals since 21-22. He has 31.05 expected goals. This is more than Andersson has despite Andersson getting 200 more minutes on the PP. Seems like they aren't padded.

You've made a lot of weird stylistic claims without any substance behind them.

"Andersson is a number 1 D and Hanifin is a number 2 because I say so" is basically your entire argument.

They don't get used more than one another outside of the coin flip choice to use Andersson more on the PP, and Hanifin has tended to get the slightly harder minutes.

Here is my claim:

Hanifin is the better PK guy
Hanifin is better defensively
They are virtually identical offensively and on the PP, both in terms of individual production and on ice results.

Andersson does draw more penalties I'll give him that.

This is a very reoccurring problem with you. Actual eye test means nothing to you. Over the last 4 years you've likely only seen Andersson and Hanifin play about 10 times each. So all you do is spout off stats. There is no stat for Andersson being a better stick handler and overall play maker. There is also no one here denying that Andersson was flat out bad last year, whereas Hanifin had a very good year.

For once maybe try listening to the people who have watched the 2 guys play nearly every single one of their games over the last 4 years. We see what they can and can't do, we see who is skilled in different areas more than anyone else. This is such a dumb argument because to every Calgary fan it is so clear how wrong you are but your determination to argue because the stats say they are even is just silly. Nearly all of Calgary's defense in the last 4 years have had high end possession numbers (especially guys who have played in the top 4) because of the teams system.

 

[dgibb10]

This is a very reoccurring problem with you. Actual eye test means nothing to you. Over the last 4 years you've likely only seen Andersson and Hanifin play about 10 times each. So all you do is spout off stats. There is no stat for Andersson being a better stick handler and overall play maker. There is also no one here denying that Andersson was flat out bad last year, whereas Hanifin had a very good year.

For once maybe try listening to the people who have watched the 2 guys play nearly every single one of their games over the last 4 years. We see what they can and can't do, we see who is skilled in different areas more than anyone else. This is such a dumb argument because to every Calgary fan it is so clear how wrong you are but your determination to argue because the stats say they are even is just silly. Nearly all of Calgary's defense in the last 4 years have had high end possession numbers (especially guys who have played in the top 4) because of the teams system.

If this system makes it so easy to have great possession numbers, what does that say about Andersson who did not have great possession numbers? Did Andersson not play in that exact same system?

I'd say the fact that Hanifin was very good last year whereas Andersson was, to quote you, "flat out bad" is reason to have Hanifin higher.

Stylistic arguments have no place in an argument for who's better. In an argument for who a team should acquire? 100%. You should be looking for a guy who is a stylistic fit. And some guys strengths may be obsolete on a certain team, and other guys may be more needed.

However, in an argument about who is BETTER, those arguments are frankly irrelevant. It doesn't matter HOW you help your team score more goals, or HOW you stop the opponent, all that matters is that you do.

And frankly I do not trust fans of teams about stuff like this. You get every fanbase convinced that whatever player on their team is riding some ridiculous shooting/goaltending luck is somehow different and they have broken the stat.

Eg. Rasmus Andersson. He has gotten ridiculous goaltending behind him in a small sample size and a 14% on ice shooting % EV to convince people he's dominating all while getting frankly caved in out there this year. Couple that with the quadrupling his career shooting % so far and you get the most predictable fan blinders of all time.

 

[dgibb10]

This is a very reoccurring problem with you. Actual eye test means nothing to you. Over the last 4 years you've likely only seen Andersson and Hanifin play about 10 times each. So all you do is spout off stats. There is no stat for Andersson being a better stick handler and overall play maker. There is also no one here denying that Andersson was flat out bad last year, whereas Hanifin had a very good year.

For once maybe try listening to the people who have watched the 2 guys play nearly every single one of their games over the last 4 years. We see what they can and can't do, we see who is skilled in different areas more than anyone else. This is such a dumb argument because to every Calgary fan it is so clear how wrong you are but your determination to argue because the stats say they are even is just silly. Nearly all of Calgary's defense in the last 4 years have had high end possession numbers (especially guys who have played in the top 4) because of the teams system.

Also, I have a question.

So, in march 2023 Andersson was outside your top 25 dmen

Since that time he had a, to quote you "flat out bad" year.

What caused him to enter your top 25 dmen today?

Is there some new info you found, some new research you did to drop a bunch of guys out?

Who from this list above has he passed, along with I will throw out another 23 for you to compare him to:

Ekholm, Bouchard, Spurgeon, McDonagh, Gavrikov, Roy, Forsling, Pesce, Brodin, Pettersson, Montour, Skjei, Faber, Sanderson, Pulock, Dobson, Dunn, Theodore, Fehervary, Weegar, Seider, Hanifin, Harley,

You had him outside your top 25, and Hanifin from 30-35, and then, after Hanifin had a significantly better year by your own admission. Andersson shoots up? Same with Weegar?

 

[ManofSteel55]

This feels like too much for Andersson, but if you include the extra that Edmonton would have to give Calgary to get them to deal him to us, it's probably accurate. If they wanted more, I would say no for sure.

I honestly don't expect Conroy to ever complete a trade for a marquee player with us. I expect he would use this deal for leverage to get something close to this, and that he would offered enough to take a little less from someone else. R. Andersson to Edmonton is - unlikely.

 

[LTIR]

Names!!! lol Give me names. Or better yet, create a thread

Parayko to start.
If BOS stays cold than Carlo is another

Neither of which would cost 3 1sts +

 

[ICanMotteBelieveIt]

I think like 5 teams beat that offer without blinking.

Retain 50% and he's the best contract in the league for two playoff runs.

With all due respect this is Andersson, not Fox. I love Andersson and I'm a fellow swede but come on... hyperbole deluxe.

 

[DJJones]

With all due respect this is Andersson, not Fox. I love Andersson and I'm a fellow swede but come on... hyperbole deluxe.

You are correct, if Fox made 2M he'd have the best contract in the league.

But he doesn't...

 

[TFHockey]

Parayko to start.
If BOS stays cold than Carlo is another

Neither of which would cost 3 1sts +

Well, I don't like Carlo as much as Andersson, and I think Parayko is a little older and pricier than we'd like. But thanks for a real reply

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

If this system makes it so easy to have great possession numbers, what does that say about Andersson who did not have great possession numbers? Did Andersson not play in that exact same system?

I'd say the fact that Hanifin was very good last year whereas Andersson was, to quote you, "flat out bad" is reason to have Hanifin higher.

Stylistic arguments have no place in an argument for who's better. In an argument for who a team should acquire? 100%. You should be looking for a guy who is a stylistic fit. And some guys strengths may be obsolete on a certain team, and other guys may be more needed.

However, in an argument about who is BETTER, those arguments are frankly irrelevant. It doesn't matter HOW you help your team score more goals, or HOW you stop the opponent, all that matters is that you do.

And frankly I do not trust fans of teams about stuff like this. You get every fanbase convinced that whatever player on their team is riding some ridiculous shooting/goaltending luck is somehow different and they have broken the stat.

Eg. Rasmus Andersson. He has gotten ridiculous goaltending behind him in a small sample size and a 14% on ice shooting % EV to convince people he's dominating all while getting frankly caved in out there this year. Couple that with the quadrupling his career shooting % so far and you get the most predictable fan blinders of all time.

How did Andersson not have great possession numbers between 20/21 and 22/23? I am not talking about 23/24 where only Weegar had good possession numbers from the Flames blue line (yes Hanifin included, his possession numbers were worse than Andersson's, despite having a better season).

If you really want to rank Hanifin higher than Andersson based on 1 season where 1 player was playing for a new contract and the other was still recovering from lingering injuries from his car crash then fine. All the power to you. But you are very much in the minority. 99% of people will view Andersson as the better player.

Trust? Who cares about trust? This has nothing to do with your team. You are literally arguing for the sake of arguing. Again you've only watched him play a handful of games over his entire career, so quite frankly I don't think you are qualified to make these ridiculously long posts about how good or bad a player is. Yes stats are useful for comparing players around the league but eye test always trumps that. If you really want to have an idea of how good or bad Andersson is as a player go watch his next 20 games or so.

Nobody is expecting Andersson to keep up a 17% shooting percentage, nor is anyone expecting him to remain a PPG to the end of the season. But 60 points is well within reason for him this year. He has absolutely been playing excellent so far this season. He's played with a lot of confidence and poise, like he did a couple years ago.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Also, I have a question.

So, in march 2023 Andersson was outside your top 25 dmen
View attachment 926456
Since that time he had a, to quote you "flat out bad" year.

What caused him to enter your top 25 dmen today?

Is there some new info you found, some new research you did to drop a bunch of guys out?

Who from this list above has he passed, along with I will throw out another 23 for you to compare him to:

Ekholm, Bouchard, Spurgeon, McDonagh, Gavrikov, Roy, Forsling, Pesce, Brodin, Pettersson, Montour, Skjei, Faber, Sanderson, Pulock, Dobson, Dunn, Theodore, Fehervary, Weegar, Seider, Hanifin, Harley,

You had him outside your top 25, and Hanifin from 30-35, and then, after Hanifin had a significantly better year by your own admission. Andersson shoots up? Same with Weegar?

As for this, man you really went into the archives for that one lmao. I made that post purposely avoiding mentioning Flames players to avoid sounding bias. As well as a lot of recency bias as Karlsson, Morrissey, Dahlin, Heiskanen, Montour, Sergachev, and Lindholm were all having very strong seasons. (as seen here)

Due to Lindholm's defensive game I had no issue ranking him that high if he could keep up that level of offense. However that offense clearly has not replicated itself so he would be a fast cut from that top 25.
Sergachev also followed up that season with very poor offensive numbers and his defensive play has always been subpar, so he would be another cut.
I defended Ekblad for a very long time. The previous 2 years (20/21 and 21/22) he was elite and I like to use a 3 year sample size when judging a player. But the last 3 years he has been very average so I don't think there is any world where I can justifiably rank him as high as I did then.
Chychrun and Jones have been pretty mid as well since posting that.

So I would cut those 5 players from that list and move Weeger, Andersson, Dobson, Bouchard, and Seider into my top 25 (in no particular order). Everyone else else you mentioned I would not consider ranking above those 25 players at this point in time (except Theodore who I clearly already had in the top 25 but you mentioned anyways). I do think Faber and Sanderson are pretty close though.

 

[dgibb10]

It seems calgary

How did Andersson not have great possession numbers between 20/21 and 22/23? I am not talking about 23/24 where only Weegar had good possession numbers from the Flames blue line (yes Hanifin included, his possession numbers were worse than Andersson's, despite having a better season).

If you really want to rank Hanifin higher than Andersson based on 1 season where 1 player was playing for a new contract and the other was still recovering from lingering injuries from his car crash then fine. All the power to you. But you are very much in the minority. 99% of people will view Andersson as the better player.

Trust? Who cares about trust? This has nothing to do with your team. You are literally arguing for the sake of arguing. Again you've only watched him play a handful of games over his entire career, so quite frankly I don't think you are qualified to make these ridiculously long posts about how good or bad a player is. Yes stats are useful for comparing players around the league but eye test always trumps that. If you really want to have an idea of how good or bad Andersson is as a player go watch his next 20 games or so.

Nobody is expecting Andersson to keep up a 17% shooting percentage, nor is anyone expecting him to remain a PPG to the end of the season. But 60 points is well within reason for him this year. He has absolutely been playing excellent so far this season. He's played with a lot of confidence and poise, like he did a couple years ago.

20-21 wasn't pretty tbh especially when you consider how excellent giordano was away from Andersson and with Tanev

21-22 he spent stapled to noah hanifin so the possession numbers there are pretty pointless to go over, both had had the same numbers (which were excellent btw)

22-23 they were good, but still a step below the other 3 (especially Tanev and Weegar)

 

[dgibb10]

How did Andersson not have great possession numbers between 20/21 and 22/23? I am not talking about 23/24 where only Weegar had good possession numbers from the Flames blue line (yes Hanifin included, his possession numbers were worse than Andersson's, despite having a better season).

If you really want to rank Hanifin higher than Andersson based on 1 season where 1 player was playing for a new contract and the other was still recovering from lingering injuries from his car crash then fine. All the power to you. But you are very much in the minority. 99% of people will view Andersson as the better player.

Trust? Who cares about trust? This has nothing to do with your team. You are literally arguing for the sake of arguing. Again you've only watched him play a handful of games over his entire career, so quite frankly I don't think you are qualified to make these ridiculously long posts about how good or bad a player is. Yes stats are useful for comparing players around the league but eye test always trumps that. If you really want to have an idea of how good or bad Andersson is as a player go watch his next 20 games or so.

Nobody is expecting Andersson to keep up a 17% shooting percentage, nor is anyone expecting him to remain a PPG to the end of the season. But 60 points is well within reason for him this year. He has absolutely been playing excellent so far this season. He's played with a lot of confidence and poise, like he did a couple years ago.

I disagree with the claim he's been playing excellent so far this year.

He's been at a 46% xgoals share propped up by a ridiculous PDO.

Hanifin's possession numbers were not worse than Anderssons in 23-24

I rank Hanifin higher because I think he has been better in basically every year they've played together. I think they are equal offensively with Hanifin being better defensively.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

It seems calgary


20-21 wasn't pretty tbh especially when you consider how excellent giordano was away from Andersson and with Tanev
View attachment 926923

21-22 he spent stapled to noah hanifin so the possession numbers there are pretty pointless to go over, both had had the same numbers (which were excellent btw)

22-23 they were good, but still a step below the other 3 (especially Tanev and Weegar)View attachment 926924

So now you go year by year and some years don't count???? That makes zero sense. You are also literally saying his possession numbers were great, which is contradictory to your last post

 

[dgibb10]

As for this, man you really went into the archives for that one lmao. I made that post purposely avoiding mentioning Flames players to avoid sounding bias. As well as a lot of recency bias as Karlsson, Morrissey, Dahlin, Heiskanen, Montour, Sergachev, and Lindholm were all having very strong seasons. (as seen here)
View attachment 926891
Due to Lindholm's defensive game I had no issue ranking him that high if he could keep up that level of offense. However that offense clearly has not replicated itself so he would be a fast cut from that top 25.
Sergachev also followed up that season with very poor offensive numbers and his defensive play has always been subpar, so he would be another cut.
I defended Ekblad for a very long time. The previous 2 years (20/21 and 21/22) he was elite and I like to use a 3 year sample size when judging a player. But the last 3 years he has been very average so I don't think there is any world where I can justifiably rank him as high as I did then.
Chychrun and Jones have been pretty mid as well since posting that.

So I would cut those 5 players from that list and move Weeger, Andersson, Dobson, Bouchard, and Seider into my top 25 (in no particular order). Everyone else else you mentioned I would not consider ranking above those 25 players at this point in time (except Theodore who I clearly already had in the top 25 but you mentioned anyways). I do think Faber and Sanderson are pretty close though.

Again, my question remains.

Why do Ekblad Chychrun Jones and Sergachev get moved down for not being average and mid last year, but Andersson, who was, to quote you "flat out bad", moves up.

Are you saying Andersson was worse in 20-21 than 23-24 (which tbh I would say is true)?

 

[dgibb10]

So now you go year by year and some years don't count???? That makes zero sense. You are also literally saying his possession numbers were great, which is contradictory to your last post

I ignored 21-22 in this case because him and hanifin played every single minute together, making their possession results identical unless you want to look at like various random half shifts over the course of the year, and we were Talking about him vs Hanifin.

Which goes onto my point. Andersson has only really had great results alongside Hanifin.

You agree that Weegar is better from what I've gathered, and in terms of Tanev, I'd simply say every single dman on calgary had significantly better results with tanev than andersson.

 

[Yepthatsme]

I ignored 21-22 in this case because him and hanifin played every single minute together, making their possession results identical unless you want to look at like various random half shifts over the course of the year, and we were Talking about him vs Hanifin.

Which goes onto my point. Andersson has only really had great results alongside Hanifin.

You agree that Weegar is better from what I've gathered, and in terms of Tanev, I'd simply say every single dman on calgary had significantly better results with tanev than andersson.

I have to admire the confidence that a Devil’s fan is trying to argue against multiple Flame’s fans about who was their best defenseman. Hanifin was an analytics darling and I was one of his most vocal supporters when Flmaes fans didn’t appreciate him, but last year was the only year of their respective Flames careers that Andersson wasn’t the better defenseman. It wasn’t entirely close either, and it was easy for everyone who watched to see.

Weren’t you also the fan who was trying to say Markstrom actually wasn’t good last year too?

 

[Hobnobs]

Hanifin pads his goal and assist numbers, and also his teams on ice goals numbers, and also his teams shot numbers, and also his teams expected goals numbers? That just sounds like being a good defensemen tbh.

If Hanafin was all expected goals, no real goals that statement would have some weight.

But he isn't.

Hanifin has 31 goals since 21-22. He has 31.05 expected goals. This is more than Andersson has despite Andersson getting 200 more minutes on the PP. Seems like they aren't padded.

You've made a lot of weird stylistic claims without any substance behind them.

"Andersson is a number 1 D and Hanifin is a number 2 because I say so" is basically your entire argument.

They don't get used more than one another outside of the coin flip choice to use Andersson more on the PP, and Hanifin has tended to get the slightly harder minutes.

Here is my claim:

Hanifin is the better PK guy
Hanifin is better defensively
They are virtually identical offensively and on the PP, both in terms of individual production and on ice results.

Andersson does draw more penalties I'll give him that.

What makes Hanifin better at PK and defense exactly?