Proposal: EDM - CGY

[Ledge And Dairy]

You seem to be trying to spin the fact that hanifin is better defensively into a negative?

Hanifin is better defensively? We can both very easily agree on that?

I don't think Rasmus Andersson is better offensively, or at least not in any meaningful way. Their offensive results are a spitting image of eachother, both EV and on the PP

If rasmus offensive results are worthy of being a number 1 dman, than Hanifins (virtually identical) offensive results make him that as well.

You keep trying to paint Andersson as a step above offensively, when he isn't.



About Bouchard Ekholm.

A) Yes, Ekholm has been better than Bouchard EV over the last 3 years since he is much better defensively while putting up similar offense EV

The reason people (and not everyone) view Bouchard as better is 3 reasons

1: Age: Bouchard is on the way up being 22,23,24,25 in those seasons, Ekholm is 31,32,33, 34 in those seasons. This does not apply as Hanifin and Andersson are the same age
2: Evan Bouchard is one of the best PP weapons in the NHL. Ekholm does not contribute in this area. Again, since Hanifin and Andersson have similar PP results, this does not apply.
3: Bouchards EV offense is better than Ekholms, even despite year 1 of the sample being his rookie year. Andersson does not have said edge

But looking at the last 3 years, give me Ekholm. Going forward, give me bouchard.

Your lack of reading ability is showing again. I specifically said "Any player who partners with Tanev massively has their defensive numbers skyrocket."

It's not just Tanev tho. He's the big one where guys have WAY better results with him, but guys also have better results with Weegar and other dmen.

There's not many guys who have had Hanifin and Andersson as partner's separately in the same year unfortunately

I am not arguing Hanifin better defensively. He is but it's not by a whole lot. As for offensively you are completely wrong. Hanifin is a good puck mover (hence why I called him a PMD like 3 times now). He is good at rushing the puck up ice with his speed. He also shoots the puck a lot, but the shots generally miss the net or are pretty easy saves for the goalie. As for Andersson, he has a great slapper and is far more technically gifted with the puck than Hanifin. Hanifin simply pads his counting stats with his vastly higher shot count.

Nobody is arguing Hanifin isn't a good defenseman here. The difference is Andersson is around the 20-25 rank in the league and Hanifin is around 30-35 in the league.

 

[dgibb10]

I am not arguing Hanifin better defensively. He is but it's not by a whole lot. As for offensively you are completely wrong. Hanifin is a good puck mover (hence why I called him a PMD like 3 times now). He is good at rushing the puck up ice with his speed. He also shoots the puck a lot, but the shots generally miss the net or are pretty easy saves for the goalie. As for Andersson, he has a great slapper and is far more technically gifted with the puck than Hanifin. Hanifin simply pads his counting stats with his vastly higher shot count.

Nobody is arguing Hanifin isn't a good defenseman here. The difference is Andersson is around the 20-25 rank in the league and Hanifin is around 30-35 in the league.

Hanifin pads his goal and assist numbers, and also his teams on ice goals numbers, and also his teams shot numbers, and also his teams expected goals numbers? That just sounds like being a good defensemen tbh.

If Hanafin was all expected goals, no real goals that statement would have some weight.

But he isn't.

Hanifin has 31 goals since 21-22. He has 31.05 expected goals. This is more than Andersson has despite Andersson getting 200 more minutes on the PP. Seems like they aren't padded.

You've made a lot of weird stylistic claims without any substance behind them.

"Andersson is a number 1 D and Hanifin is a number 2 because I say so" is basically your entire argument.

They don't get used more than one another outside of the coin flip choice to use Andersson more on the PP, and Hanifin has tended to get the slightly harder minutes.

Here is my claim:

Hanifin is the better PK guy
Hanifin is better defensively
They are virtually identical offensively and on the PP, both in terms of individual production and on ice results.

Andersson does draw more penalties I'll give him that.

 

[Drake1588]

If they are out (and not tied with the Oilers, as they are today), Calgary is going to have many options when it comes to an Andersson trade. I have to think they'll come up with a rationale to avoid trading him within the province.

It's not true that they won't make moves with one another, and you do what you need to do to help your team. Yet this is a key piece and he's going to generate plenty of competing offers. I doubt Conroy does it if he doesn't have to, and he doesn't have to do it. That rivalry is real.

 

[dgibb10]

I am not arguing Hanifin better defensively. He is but it's not by a whole lot. As for offensively you are completely wrong. Hanifin is a good puck mover (hence why I called him a PMD like 3 times now). He is good at rushing the puck up ice with his speed. He also shoots the puck a lot, but the shots generally miss the net or are pretty easy saves for the goalie. As for Andersson, he has a great slapper and is far more technically gifted with the puck than Hanifin. Hanifin simply pads his counting stats with his vastly higher shot count.

Nobody is arguing Hanifin isn't a good defenseman here. The difference is Andersson is around the 20-25 rank in the league and Hanifin is around 30-35 in the league.

Also 1 point.

Andersson without Hanifin on the ice has a 50.4% xGoals share in his career. Not bad, but nothing to write home about.

 

[Figgy44]

If they are out (and not tied with the Oilers, as they are today), Calgary is going to have many options when it comes to an Andersson trade. I have to think they'll come up with a rationale to avoid trading him within the province.

It's not true that they won't make moves with one another, and you do what you need to do to help your team. Yet this is a key piece and he's going to generate plenty of competing offers. I doubt Conroy does it if he doesn't have to, and he doesn't have to do it. That rivalry is real.

Rivalry aside, I'm not sure the Oilers have what the Flames are looking for. Flames are looking for value, but value wise, Conroy wants a portion of the value to be potential star players (C/D) who are closer to the NHL, than players not yet drafted. Oilers don't have and cannot afford to move players like that which is why Conroy would easily have other offers he prefers unless Edmonton does something like what OP mentioned.

I'm sure the two teams could make a trade, but I don't think it's an Andersson/Weegar calibre deal. Maybe a trade for an expiring contract depth player at the TDL due to injuries or something.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Hanifin pads his goal and assist numbers, and also his teams on ice goals numbers, and also his teams shot numbers, and also his teams expected goals numbers? That just sounds like being a good defensemen tbh.

If Hanafin was all expected goals, no real goals that statement would have some weight.

But he isn't.

Hanifin has 31 goals since 21-22. He has 31.05 expected goals. This is more than Andersson has despite Andersson getting 200 more minutes on the PP. Seems like they aren't padded.

You've made a lot of weird stylistic claims without any substance behind them.

"Andersson is a number 1 D and Hanifin is a number 2 because I say so" is basically your entire argument.

They don't get used more than one another outside of the coin flip choice to use Andersson more on the PP, and Hanifin has tended to get the slightly harder minutes.

Here is my claim:

Hanifin is the better PK guy
Hanifin is better defensively
They are virtually identical offensively and on the PP, both in terms of individual production and on ice results.

Andersson does draw more penalties I'll give him that.

This is a very reoccurring problem with you. Actual eye test means nothing to you. Over the last 4 years you've likely only seen Andersson and Hanifin play about 10 times each. So all you do is spout off stats. There is no stat for Andersson being a better stick handler and overall play maker. There is also no one here denying that Andersson was flat out bad last year, whereas Hanifin had a very good year.

For once maybe try listening to the people who have watched the 2 guys play nearly every single one of their games over the last 4 years. We see what they can and can't do, we see who is skilled in different areas more than anyone else. This is such a dumb argument because to every Calgary fan it is so clear how wrong you are but your determination to argue because the stats say they are even is just silly. Nearly all of Calgary's defense in the last 4 years have had high end possession numbers (especially guys who have played in the top 4) because of the teams system.

 

[dgibb10]

This is a very reoccurring problem with you. Actual eye test means nothing to you. Over the last 4 years you've likely only seen Andersson and Hanifin play about 10 times each. So all you do is spout off stats. There is no stat for Andersson being a better stick handler and overall play maker. There is also no one here denying that Andersson was flat out bad last year, whereas Hanifin had a very good year.

For once maybe try listening to the people who have watched the 2 guys play nearly every single one of their games over the last 4 years. We see what they can and can't do, we see who is skilled in different areas more than anyone else. This is such a dumb argument because to every Calgary fan it is so clear how wrong you are but your determination to argue because the stats say they are even is just silly. Nearly all of Calgary's defense in the last 4 years have had high end possession numbers (especially guys who have played in the top 4) because of the teams system.

If this system makes it so easy to have great possession numbers, what does that say about Andersson who did not have great possession numbers? Did Andersson not play in that exact same system?

I'd say the fact that Hanifin was very good last year whereas Andersson was, to quote you, "flat out bad" is reason to have Hanifin higher.

Stylistic arguments have no place in an argument for who's better. In an argument for who a team should acquire? 100%. You should be looking for a guy who is a stylistic fit. And some guys strengths may be obsolete on a certain team, and other guys may be more needed.

However, in an argument about who is BETTER, those arguments are frankly irrelevant. It doesn't matter HOW you help your team score more goals, or HOW you stop the opponent, all that matters is that you do.

And frankly I do not trust fans of teams about stuff like this. You get every fanbase convinced that whatever player on their team is riding some ridiculous shooting/goaltending luck is somehow different and they have broken the stat.

Eg. Rasmus Andersson. He has gotten ridiculous goaltending behind him in a small sample size and a 14% on ice shooting % EV to convince people he's dominating all while getting frankly caved in out there this year. Couple that with the quadrupling his career shooting % so far and you get the most predictable fan blinders of all time.

 

[dgibb10]

This is a very reoccurring problem with you. Actual eye test means nothing to you. Over the last 4 years you've likely only seen Andersson and Hanifin play about 10 times each. So all you do is spout off stats. There is no stat for Andersson being a better stick handler and overall play maker. There is also no one here denying that Andersson was flat out bad last year, whereas Hanifin had a very good year.

For once maybe try listening to the people who have watched the 2 guys play nearly every single one of their games over the last 4 years. We see what they can and can't do, we see who is skilled in different areas more than anyone else. This is such a dumb argument because to every Calgary fan it is so clear how wrong you are but your determination to argue because the stats say they are even is just silly. Nearly all of Calgary's defense in the last 4 years have had high end possession numbers (especially guys who have played in the top 4) because of the teams system.

Also, I have a question.

So, in march 2023 Andersson was outside your top 25 dmen

Since that time he had a, to quote you "flat out bad" year.

What caused him to enter your top 25 dmen today?

Is there some new info you found, some new research you did to drop a bunch of guys out?

Who from this list above has he passed, along with I will throw out another 23 for you to compare him to:

Ekholm, Bouchard, Spurgeon, McDonagh, Gavrikov, Roy, Forsling, Pesce, Brodin, Pettersson, Montour, Skjei, Faber, Sanderson, Pulock, Dobson, Dunn, Theodore, Fehervary, Weegar, Seider, Hanifin, Harley,

You had him outside your top 25, and Hanifin from 30-35, and then, after Hanifin had a significantly better year by your own admission. Andersson shoots up? Same with Weegar?