Pre-Game Talk: ECSF Game 3| Pittsburgh Penguins @ Ottawa Senators - Penguins lead series 2-0

[Tender Rip]

The Leafs absolutely burned Boston all series long with the stretch pass. If not for a historic ten minute collapse, the stretch pass would of been one of the biggest reasons the Leafs upset the Bruins. The Leafs were using the stretch pass masterfully when it was there and making sound decisions when the Bruins took it away.

I still have to laugh at the people who think DB has one breakout in his system and forces the team to use it for every structured breakout. That would make the Pens the only team I've ever heard of in org. hockey that uses one breakout.

Apparently under DB, the puck carrier must do the stretch pass no matter what he sees. No outlets, no gaining the line, no regroups, just stretch that ****er....

I heard a twitter rumor the stretch pass is why James Neal is so lazy.

Any argument can be made to look extreme and silly if you reduce it to its most base core and assume that it's proponents allow for no flexibility or context.

Think back to our first game against the Bruins this year. For the first 15 minutes or there about we were in our zone all the time, sending blind outlet passes up the wall constantly, and constantly lost possession. Bruins took a 2-0 lead, and even Errey made a point of how we needed to get away from those breakouts, come up as a unit or skate it through until ice opened up for the stretc pass. By the end of the first period, that is what we did, ice started to open up and THEN the stretch pass became a key PART of the reason our superior speed came at them in waves on a heavy, heavy 2-1 forecheck.

Those of us who rail against the stretch pass do so full well knowing a: that we have other options, b: that the stretch pass is often an excellent weapon for us and c: that players themselves have responsibility for choosing the opportune play.

But it remains that if you are getting destroyed because you are repeatedly doing something the opponent is totally prepared to take away, the coach MUST adjust or get his players to adjust.

In that game against Boston it took less than a period. No sweat, good job Bylsma and I said as much then. But seeing the opponents dictate their game to you and abusing your breakout for three full games in a row in the playoffs like the Isles did in game 2-3-4.... that's worthy of critique, and our inability to break out with purpose was a major reason for that no matter who you want to blame that inability on.

In game 2 against Ottawa, this part of our game was by far the best it has been in these playoffs so far. Much more varied, much more about surveying and choosing what was there for the taking. Here the reason it got close had nothing to do with the system, which worked very well throughout, and everything to do with individual mistakes and poor decisions allowing some cheapish Ottawa goals and breakaways. And if course if we had converted on our chances and PPs like in previous games none of that would have mattered as we'd be getting close to double digits in scoring.

In short, there are no one here, or at least very few people I might have on my ignore list, who argue against the stretch pass the way you imply.

 

[PKV Jungle Friends]

I'm certain that I'm not alone in this one...

Is anyone else here not even slightly worried about Ottawa? I'm not the least bit concerned that they'll keep the Pens out of the third round

I really don't even care if the Pens drop this game, although a 3-0 lead would be nice

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'm not really "worried," per se, but there's always the possibility that Anderson catches fire. The sooner we put them away, the better.

 

[madinsomniac]

Apparently Sens fans feel that the DEAD SILENCE in our arena is unbearable "regardless of what we say." Because, you know, we're big fat liars and all.

Personally I'd think they'd be more worried about their team's poor showing in the first two games, being down 2-0 in a series against the team that dominated the East all season, and/or still losing on a night when our goalie had an uncharacteristically bad game. But whatever. I'm sure that the DEAD SILENCE in our arena is a very important issue as well. Looks like we won't be getting the Loud Arena Stanley Cup.

Eh... The Pens win 2 more and The sens arena will be infinitely more quiet than Consol till next year, well except when there are concerts there, I guess....


I just love the logic...

Players: 'The Crowd was great tonight'
+
Media: 'Its so loud I cant hear'
+
Opposing players: 'Their crowd was really into it'
+
Fans at the game: 'It was real loud'

< Person watching at home: 'man their arena is quiet'

 

[Big McLargehuge]

The 'crowd is pathetic' audience is such a joke. Ignoring the words of everyone that's actually at the place over what they hear on their precious TVs.

At least Consol doesn't turn into a road game when we play our rivals.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The 'crowd is pathetic' audience is such a joke. Ignoring the words of everyone that's actually at the place over what they hear on their precious TVs.

At least Consol doesn't turn into a road game when we play our rivals.

Once more, a picture is worth a thousand words.

My girlfriend's ears still were ringing this morning from last night. I looked over and saw her like this, fingers in her ears and telling me that the noise was hurting her ears, a lot of the game, and snapped a picture:

Library my ass. It was amazing there last night.

 

[Captain Hook]

Yeah, I thought the crowd last game was really good. It seemed like there were some loud "Let's go Pens" chants down the stretch of the game and obviously a lot to cheer for before that with Sid doing his thing. It seemed a little weak the first game but that game was a 4-1 snoozefest.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Any argument can be made to look extreme and silly if you reduce it to its most base core and assume that it's proponents allow for no flexibility or context.

Think back to our first game against the Bruins this year. For the first 15 minutes or there about we were in our zone all the time, sending blind outlet passes up the wall constantly, and constantly lost possession. Bruins took a 2-0 lead, and even Errey made a point of how we needed to get away from those breakouts, come up as a unit or skate it through until ice opened up for the stretc pass. By the end of the first period, that is what we did, ice started to open up and THEN the stretch pass became a key PART of the reason our superior speed came at them in waves on a heavy, heavy 2-1 forecheck.

Those of us who rail against the stretch pass do so full well knowing a: that we have other options, b: that the stretch pass is often an excellent weapon for us and c: that players themselves have responsibility for choosing the opportune play.

But it remains that if you are getting destroyed because you are repeatedly doing something the opponent is totally prepared to take away, the coach MUST adjust or get his players to adjust.

In that game against Boston it took less than a period. No sweat, good job Bylsma and I said as much then. But seeing the opponents dictate their game to you and abusing your breakout for three full games in a row in the playoffs like the Isles did in game 2-3-4.... that's worthy of critique, and our inability to break out with purpose was a major reason for that no matter who you want to blame that inability on.

In game 2 against Ottawa, this part of our game was by far the best it has been in these playoffs so far. Much more varied, much more about surveying and choosing what was there for the taking. Here the reason it got close had nothing to do with the system, which worked very well throughout, and everything to do with individual mistakes and poor decisions allowing some cheapish Ottawa goals and breakaways. And if course if we had converted on our chances and PPs like in previous games none of that would have mattered as we'd be getting close to double digits in scoring.

In short, there are no one here, or at least very few people I might have on my ignore list, who argue against the stretch pass the way you imply.

Exactly what a number of us have been saying for some time.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with Bylsma's system. In fact quite the opposite. But anything can be defended and taken away. The analogy that I gave early on, of a team with the best running game in the league in the NFL just running the ball every single play game after game, even when the other team moves everyone into the box to stop the run. It is stupid.

And it took Bylsma until game five to adjust, which during that game I noted he did and gave him credit for.

In game five I saw far more often players looking down ice and if the pass was taken away a forward came back to support bringing the puck up ice instead. That was also the same game that the lines finally changed to what we had been screaming for. That was great and all, but why did it take until game five and maybe Shero reading Bylsma the riot act? That was the question.

Saying that people were attacking the stretch pass is a straw man. It was an issue of not making reads and taking what the other team was giving. It was not the only reason the Islanders had such success, their speed and out working us and out speeding us to loose pucks was maybe even a bigger reason. But it still was an issue that was headscratching to figure out why it took so long to make an adjustment to.

 

[GreatStateofHockey]

Sens fan here, but since I live in Minneapolis I also follow the NHL as a whole very well.

Last time Spezza came back from injury he scored 38 points in the last 30 games. He's very good at staying in game shape. I'll agree that his hands might not be as good since he's been out for a while, but his shot will be as good as ever (very hard, hit 100.5 in the skills comp).

He'll most likely be matched up against Crosby, as he's one of our best 2-way forwards. Crosby is very hard to contain, but he will give us our best shot.I don't know if having him back will necessarily amp them up, but Spezza definitely makes the Sens a much better team. With Spezza back, I expect the Sens to make the Penguins pay much more around the net, especially with how many rebounds Vokouns giving up. The Penguins defense has been very good around the net. If Lehner/Anderson can play well, I expect it to be very close, with Spezza being the possible X-factor.

And with Karlsson, I'm sure you guys have seen how sub-par he's been. His skating is nowhere near where it has been. His problem has been positioning, and he needs to realize that with the shape that he's in, he won't be able to catch up to Crosby/Malkin if he makes a mistake, something that he might have been able to do without his injury.

Overall, the Pens are a great team, possibly the best in the NHL and if the Sens want to take two at home and even it up, their defense has to play much better and limit stupid mistakes (see Cowen and Karlsson games 1&2).

Here's to hoping the Sens can make it competetive, as in games 1 and 2 the Pens played much better and looked like it will be hard to prevent a sweep.

 

[Tofveve]

Re: The Isles

To use a boxing analogy, styles make fights. I think honestly, the Isles just had the right combination of speed and tenacity to give our slower team a ton of grief. I don't feel nearly as nervous against any of the other teams in the league.

Someone mentioned in one of the closed threads about how we shouldn't reward Byslma for sticking with the stretch pass. While that's true, it also shows that, for all we ***** about it, the stretch pass also works wonders against a great number of teams. Not the greatest coaching by any means, sure, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just because the Isles were fast enough to throw into one of our breakout schemes.

I agree with you that the Isle's tremendous speed gave the Pens fits. But that speed isn't there with the Sens, and probably not anyone else left in the playoffs.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Any argument can be made to look extreme and silly if you reduce it to its most base core and assume that it's proponents allow for no flexibility or context.

Think back to our first game against the Bruins this year. For the first 15 minutes or there about we were in our zone all the time, sending blind outlet passes up the wall constantly, and constantly lost possession. Bruins took a 2-0 lead, and even Errey made a point of how we needed to get away from those breakouts, come up as a unit or skate it through until ice opened up for the stretc pass. By the end of the first period, that is what we did, ice started to open up and THEN the stretch pass became a key PART of the reason our superior speed came at them in waves on a heavy, heavy 2-1 forecheck.

Those of us who rail against the stretch pass do so full well knowing a: that we have other options, b: that the stretch pass is often an excellent weapon for us and c: that players themselves have responsibility for choosing the opportune play.

But it remains that if you are getting destroyed because you are repeatedly doing something the opponent is totally prepared to take away, the coach MUST adjust or get his players to adjust.

In that game against Boston it took less than a period. No sweat, good job Bylsma and I said as much then. But seeing the opponents dictate their game to you and abusing your breakout for three full games in a row in the playoffs like the Isles did in game 2-3-4.... that's worthy of critique, and our inability to break out with purpose was a major reason for that no matter who you want to blame that inability on.

In game 2 against Ottawa, this part of our game was by far the best it has been in these playoffs so far. Much more varied, much more about surveying and choosing what was there for the taking. Here the reason it got close had nothing to do with the system, which worked very well throughout, and everything to do with individual mistakes and poor decisions allowing some cheapish Ottawa goals and breakaways. And if course if we had converted on our chances and PPs like in previous games none of that would have mattered as we'd be getting close to double digits in scoring.

In short, there are no one here, or at least very few people I might have on my ignore list, who argue against the stretch pass the way you imply.

You must have quite the list of people on your ignore list then, because this has been going on for well over a year, yet somehow you have never noticed it (those with agendas often see what they want I suppose).

I've seen people continue to blame the stretch pass when it has nothing to do with why the team struggled.

Bad game? Stretch pass!

Trouble getting through the NZ? That damn stretch pass!

Players become turnover machines? DB and his ****ing stretch pass!

It's lazy analysis.

As I said repeatedly, you and others with obvious agendas agt. DB can find plenty of other knocks on him without resorting to cliched arguments.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

The Sens' fans seem to not only be obsessed with the crowd noise, but with this notion that the Pens are soft as butter and that their kryptonite is to hit them and they will then fold like a tent.

Talk about fighting your last wars. Yeah the Pens went bonkers in the Philly series when Philly got physical with them and Giroux had that one hit on Crosby, but only someone who had no clue about this current team (hint: a third are different than even the start of the year, let alone last year's playoffs) would imagine that grit was an issue with this team.

You would think Orpik scrambling the brains of Gryba so that he is out of the playoffs at least through now would have been another clue. Then again the Sens have outhit the Pens each of the last two games, so they must believe this nonsense as well. Must be why they have a 2-0 lead in the series.

So yeah, I encourage them to continue to go after this weak spot on the Pens and hit away. If that is their plan, this series could be over before the Pens return to Pittsburgh.

As for the emotion of the crowd and the supposed quiet in CEC, however misguided because the network dampens the sound for television, maybe they should concentrate on why their team has come out as zombies each of the previous two games. I fully had expected the Pens to face a storm at the start of game two, a desperate team. From watching the game though you would have thought that it was Pittsburgh down 1-0 not the Senators. It shocked me how flat they came out to be frank. The Pens got sloppy later in the game but basically merely hung onto the lead for the rest of the game. I expect to see the desperation this game tonight from them, but I expected that last game too. But yeah worry about the CEC crowd noise, not how shockingly quiet the Sens came out last night.

 

[JTG]

People do blame the stretch pass for a lot of things. My thoughts are that, yeah, sometimes it's used a bit too much. I have always thought this team has looked it's best when all 3 forwards come back in the zone, our center comes back deep, and picks the puck up with speed. We then come up as a unit. The stretch pass shouldn't be a 1st read on a play. It should be used as an element of surprise. Coming up as a 5 man unit is more effective that a guy getting hit with a pass 50 feet down ice, then having to fend off 3 opponents until his teammates catch up.

 

[ColePens]

To me, JTG, everything is situational. The Isles fed off our stretch. I would have changed it. The Kings last night really struggled against San Jose's stretch, that's a time to really push them around with it. Every team/system/strategy is different.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

To me, JTG, everything is situational. The Isles fed off our stretch. I would have changed it. The Kings last night really struggled against San Jose's stretch, that's a time to really push them around with it. Every team/system/strategy is different.

Adapting to our opponent is something DB doesn't seem particularly interested in though. His approach is that if it doesn't work at first, then keep shoving it down their throats until it eventually does.

 

[ColePens]

Adapting to our opponent is something DB doesn't seem particularly interested in though. His approach is that if it doesn't work at first, then keep shoving it down their throats until it eventually does.

I will give DB credit here, AB. I think he gives the players alot of room to create their own. I think they have options to run instead of a very simple 1 system game. So the players, themselves, fail to adapt, too. If you listen to his pre-game talk and some of his mic'd up work, he is sending the right message. He tells them what to expect. And yet - they still end up shocked.

This is where the age-old argument comes about. You can blame players, which would be true. I tend to blame coaching for not recognizing the players can make these decisions themselves.

 

[Coach Travis]

If I had to pencil us in for a loss, this would be it. Sens are trying to defend going down 3-0, they'll be pumped up because Spezza is back, it's in their barn...

 

[JTG]

I definitely pin the adaptation thing on players. And truth be told, a lot of our downfall the last handful of years have solely been on the players. Even in these playoffs, does anyone think DB coaches some of our big guys to take 3 stupid, mindless, selfish penalties a game? Does he coach us not to make simple plays and get pucks in deep when pressured? Does he coach 2 defensemen to chase the same guy behind the net and leave our center to cover 2 guys in front? I'd say a majority of the mistakes made these playoffs have been execution and not coaching. The one thing DB has control of is the line combos.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Once more, a picture is worth a thousand words.

My girlfriend's ears still were ringing this morning from last night. I looked over and saw her like this, fingers in her ears and telling me that the noise was hurting her ears, a lot of the game, and snapped a picture:

Library my ass. It was amazing there last night.

A sens fans would argue she was checking her pulse.

It's pretty funny the sens fans are attacking the crowd at consol when their barn is infamous for other teams fans taking over when teams like the leafs and habs come to town. But we won't talk about that.

Finish these whiney sens ****ers

 

[ColePens]

If I had to pencil us in for a loss, this would be it. Sens are trying to defend going down 3-0, they'll be pumped up because Spezza is back, it's in their barn...

Completely agree, TU. We are going to need to weather a storm like Ottawa did in Game 2. We EASILY could have been up 3 goals in that first 12 minutes.

If Vokoun can steal the show or the Sens fail to make good on their little run, then this is the game the Sens win. I think they will come out and activate their defense. Pens will need to adjust by going back and supporting the breakout. They could spring a lot of 2 on 1s if they do so. They added a little bit of pressure on the Pens when they activated their defense.

The first period will be very telling. We need TV to make sure he stops the easy ones and gives us a chance. Maybe even pull a Game 6 against the Isles.

 

[Dying Alive]

The Sens' fans seem to not only be obsessed with the crowd noise, but with this notion that the Pens are soft as butter and that their kryptonite is to hit them and they will then fold like a tent.

Talk about fighting your last wars. Yeah the Pens went bonkers in the Philly series when Philly got physical with them and Giroux had that one hit on Crosby, but only someone who had no clue about this current team (hint: a third are different than even the start of the year, let alone last year's playoffs) would imagine that grit was an issue with this team.

You would think Orpik scrambling the brains of Gryba so that he is out of the playoffs at least through now would have been another clue. Then again the Sens have outhit the Pens each of the last two games, so they must believe this nonsense as well. Must be why they have a 2-0 lead in the series.

So yeah, I encourage them to continue to go after this weak spot on the Pens and hit away. If that is their plan, this series could be over before the Pens return to Pittsburgh.

As for the emotion of the crowd and the supposed quiet in CEC, however misguided because the network dampens the sound for television, maybe they should concentrate on why their team has come out as zombies each of the previous two games. I fully had expected the Pens to face a storm at the start of game two, a desperate team. From watching the game though you would have thought that it was Pittsburgh down 1-0 not the Senators. It shocked me how flat they came out to be frank. The Pens got sloppy later in the game but basically merely hung onto the lead for the rest of the game. I expect to see the desperation this game tonight from them, but I expected that last game too. But yeah worry about the CEC crowd noise, not how shockingly quiet the Sens came out last night.

They also don't seem to realize that they're not Philly, there's not that preexisting level of absolute hatred that made it possible to sucker the Pens into playing so badly. NYI fans were saying that too, hit the Pens after the whistles and they'll go so crazy it'll cost them the series. Uh, no. That only worked for the Flyers because those teams hate each other on a deep personal level, and it was only going to work the one time. They learned their lesson and played the Flyers much smarter this season. You'll have to come up with a way to beat them by actually playing hockey now.

 

[cheesedanish87]

https://twitter.com/emptynetters/status/336138669645770752

Chris Neil said Jason Spezza's return will open things up for Kyle Turris, "instead of going against Orpik every shift."


Anyone who questions how good Orpik is needs to read that, still cant believe there was people who thought pens should bench Orpik.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Hoping for a win, but expecting a lose, Sens will play there best game tonight, dont think Spezza will do much, but just him being in the lineup will give the team a boost.

 

[ColePens]

https://twitter.com/emptynetters/status/336138669645770752

Chris Neil said Jason Spezza's return will open things up for Kyle Turris, "instead of going against Orpik every shift."


Anyone who questions how good Orpik is needs to read that, still cant believe there was people who thought pens should bench Orpik.

Like i've said before... sometimes sitting in the press box can be the best thing for players (Vitale, TK, and now Orpik). He sat with that injury and he instantly looks back to his old form. He has looked great.

 

[ColePens]

Jaded - you know why I know NBC Sports drains the noise? Because the music/announcers voices are so loud in CEC right now and I can't even hear it over the speakers of my television.

Being at Game 1, I was like "wow.. the volume is turned up pretty damn high here compared to a regular season game." I could actually feel the vibrations from the bass coming out of the speakers. I'm listening on television and I can't even hear the music in the background it's so ****ing drained.

That was my dead giveaway. But why do they do it? So their announcers are more lucid? I want to hear noise. I want to hear craziness. It's playoffs.