GDT: Ducks at Leafs @ 7pm on SNO ... Dec 12th 2024

[ULF_55]

I’m gonna buy a roasted baby chicken tomorrow and eat the whole thing pretending it’s a duck. For good luck of course.

I'd suggest getting a dozen.

 

[notbias]

People either like to complain, or seem to have unrealistic expectations of what players are, what you expect lower in the lineup, or what players are paid.

Domi is our 6th TOI forward. In Florida that guy makes $4.425 mil. In Edmonton that guy makes $3 mil. In Colorado that guy makes $5.75 mil. Our guy makes $3.75 mil. This isn't egregious.

All the complainers out complaining.. this team needs to win a couple of games, so that they go hide under the bridge for a while..

Our goalies are paid $3 million... why does no one use this in their calculations?

Whatever overpayments exist in the top 6 are offset by the goalies.

This team needs bottom 6 scoring to help win.

Edit: I see you are not complaining... so maybe this isn't directed to you and we actually agree... the bottom 6 is not severally underpaid but they are underperforming for sure.

 

[Fogelhund]

Not sure about how those comparable's you've listed are doing but Domi has 6 points in 20 games and I believe pointless in the last 14.
Is that what we should expect?

My response was to a post, that a $3.75 mil player on the third line, was poor asset management, when in fact it's pretty normal for a player with his usage.

Our expectations, should be for a player to be around 0.4-0.5PPG +-... something he achieved last year, but is failing to do this year. I'll give him a pass, assuming injury had affected his ability for now. We should expect more going forward from him though, that much is for sure. We've got 54 games... he should be near 24 - 27 points for the balance of the year, and hopefully start shooting more as well, for his performance to be acceptable.

 

[ULF_55]

Not sure about how those comparable's you've listed are doing but Domi has 6 points in 20 games and I believe pointless in the last 14.
Is that what we should expect?

After some review I realized that Domi is slightly overpaid 3rd. liner.

This year he probably shouldn't have been playing, so perhaps he'll get back to being a 3rd. liner rather than someone who probably should have been watching the games.

 

[Fogelhund]

This team needs bottom 6 scoring to help win.

14 points in the last 10 games. Four teams have done better over that stretch. (by one point) It seems they are winning. Domi has been injured for a time, and needs to get back to speed. McMann has been out for a bit, and will be back soon... Patches is getting back to speed, Matthews is probably finally near 100%.. Knies was out...

It might be shocking, but we've been running a bunch of Marlies, and guys like Robertson, and Holmberg who have been completely ineffective... and Reaves too.

You complain about running guys in the lineup, when we have young guys with upside... and I'm looking around... is it Robertson you are referring too? Or Grebenkin? Robertson has been ineffective and Grebenkin doesn't look ready to contribute offensively, and isn't as good defensively yet... he really should just be with the Marlies getting plenty of icetime. Holmberg as bad as he's been, actually has six points.... which is more than Robertson and Grebenkin have combined by three times.

I can't wait until we get a healthy lineup, and Holmberg and Reaves are in the press box. But... Reaves and Holmberg don't really get scored on, when they are on the ice either.... so they aren't really hurting us. Grebenkin isn't as good defensively as either of those two, and hasn't been on the ice for a goal scored yet.

I really like Grebenkin's upside, and probably next year he should be a contributor... but I just wish they'd keep him on the Marlies and give him the ice time he needs. In the meantime, we will mostly be healthy soon, (McMann should be back Saturday, and we can see what a McMann, Minten, Domi 3rd line can do) and get to see what we've actually got, and who can contribute properly. Despite the injuries, and the terrible lineups, we've won a lot of games, and are in a good spot. I haven't like how they've played the last three or four games, but there are always these streaks in season.

Give it time, and relax man... this will work itself out somehow.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

This should be a stat padding game

At the very least we shouldn’t get outplayed here

 

[ULF_55]

Grebenkin recall ... is this to keep paying him NHL money?

 

[notbias]

14 points in the last 10 games. Four teams have done better over that stretch. It seems they are winning. Domi has been injured for a time, and needs to get back to speed. McMann has been out for a bit, and will be back soon... Patches is getting back to speed, Matthews is probably finally near 100%.. Knies was out...

14 points in 10 games from 12 players? Seems terrible, but maybe it's not.

Which players? Were they in the top 6 during the games they scored like Holmberg (think he had 2 or 3 points in the top 6)? That makes a difference.

It might be shocking, but we've been running a bunch of Marlies, and guys like Robertson, and Holmberg who have been completely ineffective... and Reaves too.

Left out Lorentz, Kampf, Dewar, Domi, and McMann who have all had bad years production wise.

You complain about running guys in the lineup, when we have young guys with upside... and I'm looking around... is it Robertson you are referring too? Or Grebenkin? Robertson has been ineffective and Grebenkin doesn't look ready to contribute offensively, and isn't as good defensively yet... he really should just be with the Marlies getting plenty of icetime. Holmberg as bad as he's been, actually has six points.... which is more than Robertson and Grebenkin have combined by three times.

I am complaining about running a 4th line that has 0 offensive upside when we have the ability to put someone like Holmberg on that line instead of Reaves and insert someone with offensive upside on the 4th line.

Complain about Robertson all you want, but he put up big numbers last year and clearly has offensive upside, he is playing with guys who have no skill offensively whatsoever in Lorentz and someone like Minten who positionally will put up points but isn't driving anything.

Maybe try him with Domi and Minten and see if he can produce with a passer and a defensively responsible C who can chip in offensively instead blackholes.

I can't wait until we get a healthy lineup, and Holmberg and Reaves are in the press box. But... Reaves and Holmberg don't really get scored on, when they are on the ice either.... so they aren't really hurting us. Grebenkin isn't as good defensively as either of those two, and hasn't been on the ice for a goal scored yet.

Holmberg was getting 17 minutes a night not long ago, you may be upset when you see him on the 4th line.

I think Lorentz has been useless since the first 5 games and would be fine with him sitting.

I really like Grebenkin's upside, and probably next year he should be a contributor... but I just wish they'd keep him on the Marlies and give him the ice time he needs. In the meantime, we will mostly be healthy soon, and get to see what we've actually got, and who can contribute properly. Despite the injuries, and the terrible lineups, we've won a lot of games, and are in a good spot. I haven't like how they've played the last three or four games, but there are always these streaks in season.

Yes, thanks to the goalies we have.

I don't think we've been dominant all year.

Give it time, and relax man... this will work itself out somehow.

I'm not worried at all, but I still think decisions like having a useless 4th line when we have better players in the pressbox is silly.

Maybe you like boring hockey and relying on goaltending, but it's not my favourite and I don't think getting outplayed will translate well in the long run.

 

[ToneDog]

This should be a stat padding game

At the very least we shouldn’t get outplayed here

There is a reason they are sponsored by Oreo this year.

 

[Fogelhund]

14 points in 10 games from 12 players? Seems terrible, but maybe it's not.

Which players? Were they in the top 6 during the games they scored like Holmberg (think he had 2 or 3 points in the top 6)? That makes a difference.

Umm... the team has 14 points in 10 games. The team. Dude.

Left out Lorentz, Kampf, Dewar, Domi, and McMann who have all had bad years production wise.

Lorentz has had perfectly acceptable production for a fourth liner. Dewar has sucked.
McMann is on pace for what you'd expect from a third liner. Kampf has underperformed. Domi has been injured and needs to be around 0.4-0.5 PPG from here out, if healthy.

I am complaining about running a 4th line that has 0 offensive upside when we have the ability to put someone like Holmberg on that line instead of Reaves and insert someone with offensive upside on the 4th line.

Complain about Robertson all you want, but he put up big numbers last year and clearly has offensive upside, he is playing with guys who have no skill offensively whatsoever in Lorentz and someone like Minten who positionally will put up points but isn't driving anything.

Maybe try him with Domi and Minten and see if he can produce with a passer and a defensively responsible C who can chip in offensively instead blackholes.

Robertson had time with Domi and McMann... they scored nothing.
He had time with Nylander... nothing.
There comes a time when you realize the guy just isn't going to make it here.... and I've been a big supporter of Robertson, but I think he's done here. He just doesn't work in Berube's system.

Holmberg was getting 17 minutes a night not long ago, you may be upset when you see him on the 4th line.

I think Lorentz has been useless since the first 5 games and would be fine with him sitting.



Yes, thanks to the goalies we have.

I don't think we've been dominant all year.



I'm not worried at all, but I still think decisions like having a useless 4th line when we have better players in the pressbox is silly.

Maybe you like boring hockey and relying on goaltending, but it's not my favourite and I don't think getting outplayed will translate well in the long run.

I don't think we've been dominant... but we are doing well enough, with a patchwork roster, filled with Marlies and guys who aren't NHLers... and we'll finally get a decent lineup soon.... maybe we can properly judge, when everyone is back. The reality is, the guys in the pressbox haven't been better...

 

[Fogelhund]

Grebenkin recall ... is this to keep paying him NHL money?

Probably... it looks like McMann is back for Saturday, and the Marlies don't play again until Saturday anyway. They can keep him with the big club, keep coaching him as to what they want, pay him more, and send him down on Friday and he doesn't miss any Marlies games. That's the only thing that makes sense out of this.

 

[1specter]

Umm... the team has 14 points in 10 games. The team. Dude.





Lorentz has had perfectly acceptable production for a fourth liner. Dewar has sucked.
McMann is on pace for what you'd expect from a third liner. Kampf has underperformed. Domi has been injured and needs to be around 0.4-0.5 PPG from here out, if healthy.




Robertson had time with Domi and McMann... they scored nothing.
He had time with Nylander... nothing.
There comes a time when you realize the guy just isn't going to make it here.... and I've been a big supporter of Robertson, but I think he's done here. He just doesn't work in Berube's system.




I don't think we've been dominant... but we are doing well enough, with a patchwork roster, filled with Marlies and guys who aren't NHLers... and we'll finally get a decent lineup soon.... maybe we can properly judge, when everyone is back. The reality is, the guys in the pressbox haven't been better...

Come on Fogelhund, I know exactly who you are talking to here. Don't bother with an individual who will always argue out of bad faith and their sole purpose is to be pedantic and nothing else.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

"Darcy Tucker said:
I was surprised how intense it was. It was like Papi is pissed he missed a slew of games and wasn't playing up to his standard. That goal could be the start of something. I can see him snapping and getting back to his dominant self. No way I'd bet against Matthews right now. Not against the Ducks. I'd take the Leafs money line and Matthews to score again and get 3+ shots as a single game parlay. But I don't really care about the gambling "

I lied.

If I win I'm buying you all Time Hortons. GLG

 

[notbias]

Umm... the team has 14 points in 10 games. The team. Dude.

So an irrelevant statement to our discussion, good start.

How has the bottom 6 been this season? That was the discussion.

Lorentz has had perfectly acceptable production for a fourth liner. Dewar has sucked.
McMann is on pace for what you'd expect from a third liner. Kampf has underperformed. Domi has been injured and needs to be around 0.4-0.5 PPG from here out, if healthy.

Dewar is better defensively, Lorentz has the 56th lowest PPG amongst forwards (10 GP, 421 forwards qualify), points in 4 out of 28 games is pretty terrible, but he is not the biggest issue anyway.

McMann has spent time in the top 6.

So a bunch of guys underperformed, we agree, the bottom 6 is struggling, you are arguing my point?

Robertson had time with Domi and McMann... they scored nothing.
He had time with Nylander... nothing.
There comes a time when you realize the guy just isn't going to make it here.... and I've been a big supporter of Robertson, but I think he's done here. He just doesn't work in Berube's system.

So he spent time with struggling players...

18 minutes with Holmberg/Nylander is not a great sample size, but that line did well.

He did well with JT/Pacioretty in their time together.

The top 3 lines he played with are (in order): Minten/Lorentz, Domi/McMann, Holmberg/McMann

Terrible offensively or struggling... not a chance to succeed, and when put with players, they've held their own/done well (Pacioretty/JT has some of the best numbers for a line on our team).

I don't think we've been dominant... but we are doing well enough, with a patchwork roster, filled with Marlies and guys who aren't NHLers... and we'll finally get a decent lineup soon.... maybe we can properly judge, when everyone is back. The reality is, the guys in the pressbox haven't been better...

Goalies, again, currently have the best tandem in the NHL.

The reality is the bottom 6 doesn't deserve to be unchanged either, they haven't done anything.

I am advocating for more offensive firepower in the bottom 6 since we can't score outside of the top 6.

 

[Fogelhund]

So an irrelevant statement to our discussion, good start.

How has the bottom 6 been this season? That was the discussion.



Dewar is better defensively, Lorentz has the 56th lowest PPG amongst forwards (10 GP, 421 forwards qualify), points in 4 out of 28 games is pretty terrible, but he is not the biggest issue anyway.

McMann has spent time in the top 6.

So a bunch of guys underperformed, we agree, the bottom 6 is struggling, you are arguing my point?



So he spent time with struggling players...

18 minutes with Holmberg/Nylander is not a great sample size, but that line did well.

He did well with JT/Pacioretty in their time together.

The top 3 lines he played with are (in order): Minten/Lorentz, Domi/McMann, Holmberg/McMann

Terrible offensively or struggling... not a chance to succeed, and when put with players, they've held their own/done well (Pacioretty/JT has some of the best numbers for a line on our team).



Goalies, again, currently have the best tandem in the NHL.

The reality is the bottom 6 doesn't deserve to be unchanged either, they haven't done anything.

I am advocating for more offensive firepower in the bottom 6 since we can't score outside of the top 6.

This was your statement... you defined the discussion.


This team needs bottom 6 scoring to help win.

I'm sorry that you think a discussion on the team winning, isn't relevant to a statement about them winning. I'm sorry that you have no idea what to expect from a bottom six, or what is league normal. I'm sorry that you don't know, that sometimes players play up when necessary, and that reflects on their points.

I get it, you like to complain and spin endlessly with pedantic ramblings, and I'm attempting to neutralize that. Go back to your schtick. In the meantime, rationality suggests waiting until the team is healthy, and see how it performs then.. whether they win, and whether the bottom six is contributing enough, over an extended stretch of healthy games. I get it, marginal players don't produce when paired with non-NHL players... but, I'm not going to judge based on that, I've got patience, and don't run around screaming the Sky is Falling after a couple of bad games.... 28 games into the season, with a ton of games with large number of players in the infirmary....

 

[notbias]

This was your statement... you defined the discussion.


This team needs bottom 6 scoring to help win.

Their winning % is the second worst in the last 5 years, not sure if I'd be happy with the amount of winning or how they are winning, but if you are, great.

Treliving's first year was the worst.

I'm sorry that you think a discussion on the team winning, isn't relevant to a statement about them winning. I'm sorry that you have no idea what to expect from a bottom six, or what is league normal. I'm sorry that you don't know, that sometimes players play up when necessary, and that reflects on their points.

We need the best goaltending in the league and Marner to carry this team, it seems like a winning strategy, you are a great hockey mind.

I get it, you like to complain and spin endlessly with pedantic ramblings, and I'm attempting to neutralize that. Go back to your schtick. In the meantime, rationality suggests waiting until the team is healthy, and see how it performs then.. whether they win, and whether the bottom six is contributing enough, over an extended stretch of healthy games. I get it, marginal players don't produce when paired with non-NHL players... but, I'm not going to judge based on that, I've got patience, and don't run around screaming the Sky is Falling after a couple of bad games.... 28 games into the season, with a ton of games with large number of players in the infirmary....

You addressed nothing from my post and attacked me.

Is your schtick being wrong and claiming victory?

I want more talent in the bottom 6 because they can not score, this has been an issue all season, no one thinks the sky is falling, but 8 years of not getting secondary scoring and your response is "we are winning"... it's worked well so far.

 

[Doublerum1975]

Has our second power play unit scored a goal yet this year?

 

[CincoHolio]

Leafs fans are kind of spoiled that we had 3 huge prospects fulfill their potential. If only that were the case for other rebuilds.

Look at Buffalo and Ottawa. Sometimes it never clicks even with star talent. At least the Ducks have a cabinet of highly touted forwards coming up at the same time. Zegras not reaching his potential might hurt them big though. Their other young players could change things. On paper doesn't always translate to on ice. That's what's probably going to happen in Anaheim.

add MTL to that list. Leafs org i think has far superior scouting and development than those teams, but we've also been a bit lucky in tanking and winning the lotto in the right year.

 

[crump]