Dubas appreciation thread

[Joey Hoser]

Marleau was the wrong player at a horrendous price, though.

Dubas has shown the ability to get many better players than Marleau for near league minimum.

We have Thornton, Spezza, Simmons and Bogosian for less than we paid Marleau, and we won't have to give up any first rounders to get rid of them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If that's true, my god...

That depth probably could have helped, considering that that was the year Gardiner and Dermott were both playing injured in the playoffs.

 

[RogerR]

We have Thornton, Spezza, Simmons and Bogosian for less than we paid Marleau, and we won't have to give up any first rounders to get rid of them.

The Marleau contract was a disaster. Thornton alone for 700K looks better than he ever did.

 

[RogerR]

Another Dubas signing that seems to be forgotten by some is getting Joey Anderson for 3 years at 750k for his 22-24 year old seasons. Solid two way player with potential

Was quite surprised Anderson would sign that for 3 years. Great value. I think his style will make him a fan fav.

 

[RogerR]

I know the media and other team's fans complain about how much the Leafs spend on those players, but in general there is no problem with those contracts. As long as the players are actually worth those contracts.

What the problem is, and nobody in the media has been able to articulate this properly, is that when you sign 4 people to so much money it dramatically reduces your margin for error with other contracts. You cannot overpay other players or else it hurts the team a lot more than others who make the same mistake.

To build around those high priced guys you have to sign the right support player(s) to the right salary for the right amount of years. If you are wrong about any of those characteristics the team has to jump through hoops to create cap space or get out of the contract. Patrick Marleau is a good example of this, he was the right player (at the time) for the right price, but they were wrong on the term. Because they were wrong about giving him the extra year, the team had to offer their 1st round pick to fix the problem.

It just gets annoying the laziness with no one commenting on the OTHER 40 million that can be spent. Even guys like Thornton, Spezza, Simmonds having fantastic value contracts I don't hear anything about.
I still think in regards to Marleau, yes 1 year too long. I also think in general never sign a late 30's player to anything close to 6 milion, even for 1 year. There are always quality vets available for 700k to 1 million. Even in that time period Justin Williams and Chara were not signimng anything remotely close to that
There was actually Canuck fans laughing this offseason still about Leafs "4 players 40 million". Meanwhile their GM was handing-out 40 million to pure garbage and none of their young talent was even signed yet. NO one noticed because none of those players made 10+. But they sure add up fast. Their 4th line is making 11.5 million this year. LOL

 

[Stephen]

The bargain bin acquisitions have been a godsend. If they run the same playbook over the next few years and bring back a few of these guys, bring in a couple more and find a good ELC here and there to supplement the Core during the flat cap I think we could successfully weather some of the bigger hurdles. Aka our $11 million number two center.

 

[zeke]

The bargain bin acquisitions have been a godsend.

Godsend makes it sound miraculous.

But it's not really.

It should be every management's assumption that there will be good cheap players available every year, and the best GMs are the ones that can consistently find them year after year.

Thats the real skill of GMing imo - not getting elite talent for bargains, but the recognition that the bottom roster talents are highly replaceable and interchangeable and a real GM earns his stripes by consistently adding the good cheap players.

 

[RogerR]

The bargain bin acquisitions have been a godsend. If they run the same playbook over the next few years and bring back a few of these guys, bring in a couple more and find a good ELC here and there to supplement the Core during the flat cap I think we could successfully weather some of the bigger hurdles. Aka our $11 million number two center.

They'll also have Dubas great drafting to rely on. Having young talent on ELCs will be nice

 

[RogerR]

Godsend makes it sound miraculous.

But it's not really.

It should be every management's assumption that there will be good cheap players available every year, and the best GMs are the ones that can consistently find them year after year.

Thats the real skill of GMing imo - not getting elite talent for bargains, but the recognition that the bottom roster talents are highly replaceable and interchangeable and a real GM earns his stripes by consistently adding the good cheap players.

So Bennings 4th line of 11.5 is not wise?

 

[Twine Tickler]

Godsend makes it sound miraculous.

But it's not really.

It should be every management's assumption that there will be good cheap players available every year, and the best GMs are the ones that can consistently find them year after year.

Thats the real skill of GMing imo - not getting elite talent for bargains, but the recognition that the bottom roster talents are highly replaceable and interchangeable and a real GM earns his stripes by consistently adding the good cheap players.

It is something I think KD has done so well since being in charge. So much so that I believe Toronto has became the premiere destination to reclaim/prolong your career for prospective UFA's. It seems as though we are consistently getting bargains in this capacity. I think it has been a shrewd strategy by management. Intentionally or unintentionally we always leave ourselves with at least 2 roster spots that need to be filled with close to minimum league salary players. When the player signs at league minimum they recognize that, play aside, they will only really be fighting for that roster spot based on cap restraints. They recognize that guys making more than them have less of a shot at cracking the lineup as they do not contractually fit in our cap. If you want to stay or start in the league, or you want to reclaim your career, signing league minimum in TO has been the best recipe as of late. It is exactly why I mute this nonsense of 4 players making 40mill. Our bottom 6 under KD has never been horrible. We haven't had the results maybe, but its not because we have no money to spend on bottom 6 players. Vancouver has the most expensive bottom 6 in the league, and they are absolute dogshit. Much rather pay the players who consistently put up close to or over a pt/game, than overpay for guys who at best will give you 0.5pt/game

 

[RogerR]

I'm sure some teams will be complaining about these bargain deals soon.

 

[zeke]

It is something I think KD has done so well since being in charge. So much so that I believe Toronto has became the premiere destination to reclaim/prolong your career for prospective UFA's. It seems as though we are consistently getting bargains in this capacity. I think it has been a shrewd strategy by management. Intentionally or unintentionally we always leave ourselves with at least 2 roster spots that need to be filled with close to minimum league salary players. When the player signs at league minimum they recognize that, play aside, they will only really be fighting for that roster spot based on cap restraints. They recognize that guys making more than them have less of a shot at cracking the lineup as they do not contractually fit in our cap. If you want to stay or start in the league, or you want to reclaim your career, signing league minimum in TO has been the best recipe as of late. It is exactly why I mute this nonsense of 4 players making 40mill. Our bottom 6 under KD has never been horrible. We haven't had the results maybe, but its not because we have no money to spend on bottom 6 players. Vancouver has the most expensive bottom 6 in the league, and they are absolute dogshit. Much rather pay the players who consistently put up close to or over a pt/game, than overpay for guys who at best will give you 0.5pt/game

And remember, those vets don't come here on cheapo deals without being impressed with that elite young core all locked up.

 

[RogerR]

And remember, those vets don't come here on cheapo deals without being impressed with that elite young core all locked up.

Yup. they are coming here because of the overall state of the organization. They aren't even meeting with the Leafs if it's a big mess here.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Going forward Dubas will be judged on playoff success
I like most things he's done here but I'm not sure this is the right core

 

[Twine Tickler]

And remember, those vets don't come here on cheapo deals without being impressed with that elite young core all locked up.

Absolutely. Not to mention, you have highly effective vets, outperforming those contracts by miles, playing in roles that are not traditionally given to league minimum contracts. Spezz has been given a very big role despite being 3rd/4th line. Consistently is taking the 1st draw in the defensive zone on the PK, and gets PP2 minutes. Jumbo is top line w/ PP1 minutes. Simmer is PP1. Bogo PK1...All of these guys are all but promised a role on the Leafs when they sign. Out of necessity yes, but also because they know they still have the ability to do the job. Of the names listed above, I would say they have been the most consistent players outside of Matthews/Marner. I really don't consider that to be a fluke. They are seasoned Vets who know what it takes to stay in an NHL lineup. Funny how the league likes to talk about the big 4 making 40 million, yet give little airtime to the "bottom 4" making 4 million. Or better yet instead of looking at the big 4 making 40 million, how about 8 key players making 44million? the narrative is however you want it to be. Look at the roster as a whole instead of the individual contracts and there really is nothing to complain about. And I haven't even touched on our much deeper prospect pool that is continually maturing in the right direction since KD took over

 

[Stephen]

Godsend makes it sound miraculous.

But it's not really.

It should be every management's assumption that there will be good cheap players available every year, and the best GMs are the ones that can consistently find them year after year.

Thats the real skill of GMing imo - not getting elite talent for bargains, but the recognition that the bottom roster talents are highly replaceable and interchangeable and a real GM earns his stripes by consistently adding the good cheap players.

Well, the other side of the equation is Dubas created the straight jacket he had to escape out of, so it can’t be a 100% lovefest and a GM’ing 101 lesson.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Going forward Dubas will be judged on playoff success
I like most things he's done here but I'm not sure this is the right core

Although I agree, this team needs to show they can win in the playoffs, I think the actions KD has taken thus far after our previous playoff struggles have been very appropriate. The thing I appreciate about KD, is he is not afraid to deviate from his original plans. Abundance of leadership, Size, and physicality were never part of his original plan. He has adjusted to what the current winning model suggests is effective. I know it is easy to say, I will judge him by his playoff success, and to some degree it is fair. But to me, this roster has no reason not to succeed in the playoffs this time around. Their lack of success this post season would fall predominantly on the players and Sheldon IMO should they falter. KD has assemble a roster that looks poised to compete for the Stanley Cup. Similar to TB in 2018-19, it would be hard to blame Stevey Y for the lightning getting swept by CBJ. Nevertheless, I am confident if this was not the right formula, Dubas and co. will go back to the drawing board and figure it out for the following year.

 

[zeke]

Going forward Dubas will be judged on playoff success
I like most things he's done here but I'm not sure this is the right core

this core has played very well in the playoffs against elite teams.

 

[CanadasTeam]

His vision is starting to come together. Plus he has learned some lessons.

This, I appreciate. Thank you Dubas.

 

[ShaneFalco]

this core has played very well in the playoffs against elite teams.

They need to win

 

[zeke]

They need to win

caring overmuch just about a playoffs "win" or two is how teams like Montreal and Vancouver get way overhyped and make many resulting poor decisions.

 

[RogerR]

T

caring overmuch just about a playoffs "win" or two is how teams like Montreal and Vancouver get way overhyped and make many resulting poor decisions.

This. "winninga round" has become so laughably overrated as an achievemnt. Habs made the playoffs because of a fluke last year.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

The Marleau contract was a disaster. Thornton alone for 700K looks better than he ever did.

Just that third year. I'm perfectly fine with the contract otherwise. The leafs had ample cap space as the "young core" were all under elc's. A good mentor for the young guys, scored 27 goals his first year (not too shabby).

But that third year.... Let's just say I made a tiny little bit of a "fuss" about it on these boards the very day the contract was announced.

 

[RogerR]

Just that third year. I'm perfectly fine with the contract otherwise. The leafs had ample cap space as the "young core" were all under elc's. A good mentor for the young guys, scored 27 goals his first year (not too shabby).

But that third year.... Let's just say I made a tiny little bit of a "fuss" about it on these boards the very day the contract was announced.

Additional issue is how horribly overplayed he was in that second year.

 

[zeke]

Just that third year. I'm perfectly fine with the contract otherwise. The leafs had ample cap space as the "young core" were all under elc's. A good mentor for the young guys, scored 27 goals his first year (not too shabby).

But that third year.... Let's just say I made a tiny little bit of a "fuss" about it on these boards the very day the contract was announced.

No team ever has ample capspace to waste $6m like that.

That contract was one of the key reasons the leafs wasted those elite ELC core years.