Draisaitl or Bergeron

[GreatGonzo]

Again, you don’t take Bergeron for is offensive abilities, you take him for his defensive abilities. Shave some points off Bergeron if you’d like, but it’s not going to change how good of a two way player he is.

Ok then who’s going to drive the offense? Can Bergy carry a line? Can he be the main play driver and scorer?

 

[Three On Zero]

Ok then who’s going to drive the offense? Can Bergy carry a line? Can he be the main play driver and scorer?

That all depends on which team you’re adding him to.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Draisiatl is the superior offensive player, that’s not even a debate.

This thread is about adding a player in their prime to your team. I value what Bergeron can bring as a defensively sound forward more than I do the bump in offensive production you get from Draisiatl with the poor defensive tendencies.

Florida won the cup without a 100 point scorer, Vegas won the cup without a 100 point scorer.

To me what Bergeron brings is a more useful skill set

That’s fair, I believe there’s multiple ways to win a cup, including being an offensive dynamo.

I just brought it up because I was wondering if the totality of the two-way play was the tipping favour or moreso the defensive side of the ice.

Tampa, Pittsburgh, Colorado won cups around offensive superstars

personally I’d value draisaitl’s offence as it’s harder to come by that, and if you put a good enough system in place, the offence will outweigh the defence.

 

[McHelpus]

Bergeron defensive two way play makes up for the gap in points, and you don’t know what kind of player you’re getting with Draisaitl away from McDavid. He could very well only be a 100pt player .

80 points + defensive play > 100-110 points + defensive liability

So you are taking into account Mcdavid but what about Bergeron teammates? Oh wait, that doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Three On Zero]

That’s fair, I believe there’s multiple ways to win a cup, including being an offensive dynamo.

I just brought it up because I was wondering if the totality of the two-way play was the tipping favour or moreso the defensive side of the ice.

Tampa, Pittsburgh, Colorado won cups around offensive superstars

personally I’d value draisaitl’s offence as it’s harder to come by that, and if you put a good enough system in place, the offence will outweigh the defence.

Those teams also had stud defenceman and or goaltending.

Tampa had Vasi/Hedman, Pittsburgh had MAF/Letang, Colorado had Makar.

Toronto went full blown offence and has been a failure, Edmonton went full blown offence and was a failure prior to getting Ekholm.

I prefer a team that has a solid depth structure and isn’t reliant on top forwards to out score the teams defensive deficiencies. Now if you have those pieces, you take Draisiatl.

 

[Aashir Mallik]

Those teams also had stud defenceman and or goaltending.

Tampa had Vasi/Hedman, Pittsburgh had MAF/Letang, Colorado had Makar.

Toronto went full blown offence and has been a failure, Edmonton went full blown offence and was a failure prior to getting Ekholm.

I prefer a team that has a solid depth structure and isn’t reliant on top forwards to out score the teams defensive deficiencies. Now if you have those pieces, you take Draisiatl.

Yea that is true, but I don't thinik Tampa or Pittsburgh win their cup swapping Mack/Kuch for Bergeron, whilst they do with Draisaitl. Colorado is a bit of an outlier with just how dominant their offence was so I think you could be fine either way, but I'd rather take Draisaitl as he plays a mackinnon role closer than Bergeron does

I'd argue that at least for Toronto's case it's actually been the offence that's been the problem. You saw it first hand in the second round series last year, 10 goals for and 14 goals againsr in 5 games and the core 4 combined for 3G. Ditto this year 12GF and 18GA in 7GP, with core 4 combining for 6G, in both situations adding bergeron would not have had as much of an impact as having Drasaitl IMO.

I think a team like the 19-20 and 20-21 Islanders, 19-20 Stars, 22-23 Panthers (maybe) and going more broadly, Carolina, Winnipeg, LosAngeles, Rangers would also have benefitted from having a Draisaitl vs a Bergeron as their offence always struggles come playoff time


I think team composition does play heavily into it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a current playoff team where taking bergeron would actually be advantageous over draisaitl

 

[GreatGonzo]

That all depends on which team you’re adding him to.

So you are adding Bergy to a team with an already set offensive guy who can score?

 

[Three On Zero]

Yea that is true, but I don't thinik Tampa or Pittsburgh win their cup swapping Mack/Kuch for Bergeron, whilst they do with Draisaitl. Colorado is a bit of an outlier with just how dominant their offence was so I think you could be fine either way, but I'd rather take Draisaitl as he plays a mackinnon role closer than Bergeron does

I'd argue that at least for Toronto's case it's actually been the offence that's been the problem. You saw it first hand in the second round series last year, 10 goals for and 14 goals againsr in 5 games and the core 4 combined for 3G. Ditto this year 12GF and 18GA in 7GP, with core 4 combining for 6G, in both situations adding bergeron would not have had as much of an impact as having Drasaitl IMO.

I think a team like the 19-20 and 20-21 Islanders, 19-20 Stars, 22-23 Panthers (maybe) and going more broadly, Carolina, Winnipeg, LosAngeles, Rangers would also have benefitted from having a Draisaitl vs a Bergeron as their offence always struggles come playoff time


I think team composition does play heavily into it, but I'm having a hard time coming up with a current playoff team where taking bergeron would actually be advantageous over draisaitl

I mentioned it before but I want to see more from Draisaitl as a solo player before betting on him being the same type of player away from McDavid.

Malkin without Crosby has put up 199 points in 148 games with a +25

Draisiatl without McDavid has put up 53 points in 52 games with +/- of 0

Perhaps it’s being too harsh but I am leery of adding a player that’s been heavily influenced by another and assuming he can keep the same production level.

It really is a “what if” scenario for me. Draisiatl can lose a step offensively and be somewhat useless where a defensive player is less likely to get worse defensively.

So you are adding Bergy to a team with an already set offensive guy who can score?

That all depends on which team you’re adding him to.

From OP “ Which guy are you adding to your team, all things equal, both right in prime, assuming similar contract/health etc”

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I'm a fan of Bergeron but I take Drai and it's not particularly close.

When building a team it's a lot easier to find defensive forwards than it is to find a guy who can produce like Draisaitl.

 

[Marlowe Syn]

I have this weird affinity for elite 200' all zone centers. Bergeron was dominant. Drai may put more points on the board. Bergeron keeps the other team off the scoresheet. While still being a solid top6 level contributor. There is no wrong answer here in my opinion, but my preference is for the total package.

 

[Three On Zero]

I have this weird affinity for elite 200' all zone centers. Bergeron was dominant. Drai may put more points on the board. Bergeron keeps the other team off the scoresheet. While still being a solid top6 level contributor. There is no wrong answer here in my opinion, but my preference is for the total package.

100%

 

[GreatGonzo]

I mentioned it before but I want to see more from Draisaitl as a solo player before betting on him being the same type of player away from McDavid.

Malkin without Crosby has put up 199 points in 148 games with a +25

Draisiatl without McDavid has put up 53 points in 52 games with +/- of 0

Perhaps it’s being too harsh but I am leery of adding a player that’s been heavily influenced by another and assuming he can keep the same production level.

It really is a “what if” scenario for me. Draisiatl can lose a step offensively and be somewhat useless where a defensive player is less likely to get worse defensively.


That all depends on which team you’re adding him to.

From OP “ Which guy are you adding to your team, all things equal, both right in prime, assuming similar contract/health etc”

Ok but would you feel confident in Bergeron being THE guy offensively?

Also it’s interesting because Bergeron averages 56 points per 82 without Marchand and then 68 points per 82 with him. That’s a pretty big increase in offense.

It was said before, it’s more difficult to find a player like Draisaitl than it is Bergeron.

 

[Mike C]

Nobody in the league can be "the guy" when McDavid is on the same team.

Drai has the Hart, Lindsay and Ross + absolutely smokes Bergeron in offense playoffs included. His playoff PPG is double what Bergeron had, the defensive gap ain´t going to bridge that.

Drai may have the Hart but Bergeron has the Heart

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Based on Draisaitl going to a team that doesn’t have a McDavid to carry the workload. It’s really not that outlandish to think his production would drop in a different environment

Bozo is there to carry the workload in Vancouver.

 

[Regal]

I mentioned it before but I want to see more from Draisaitl as a solo player before betting on him being the same type of player away from McDavid.

Malkin without Crosby has put up 199 points in 148 games with a +25

Draisiatl without McDavid has put up 53 points in 52 games with +/- of 0

Perhaps it’s being too harsh but I am leery of adding a player that’s been heavily influenced by another and assuming he can keep the same production level.

It really is a “what if” scenario for me. Draisiatl can lose a step offensively and be somewhat useless where a defensive player is less likely to get worse defensively.


That all depends on which team you’re adding him to.

From OP “ Which guy are you adding to your team, all things equal, both right in prime, assuming similar contract/health etc”

37 of those games are from when Drai was a 50 point sophomore. And he scored at a better rate in those games than his games with McDavid that year.

 

[Three On Zero]

Ok but would you feel confident in Bergeron being THE guy offensively?

Also it’s interesting because Bergeron averages 56 points per 82 without Marchand and then 68 points per 82 with him. That’s a pretty big increase in offense.

It was said before, it’s more difficult to find a player like Draisaitl than it is Bergeron.

The league has numerous 100+ point players, the league doesn’t have numerous two way players as good as Bergeron was

 

[GreatGonzo]

The league has numerous 100+ point players, the league doesn’t have numerous two way players as good as Bergeron was

Except Draisaitl has hit 100 points 5 times in the past 6 years. How many players have done that?

 

[Three On Zero]

Except Draisaitl has hit 100 points 5 times in the past 6 years. How many players have done that?

And how many players have won the Selke trophy 6 times?

 

[TruePowerSlave]

And how many players have won the Selke trophy 6 times?

No amount of defensive brilliance will compensate for the massive difference in scoring. Drai can be the offensive catalyst for any team in the league, you simply don’t want Bergeron in that role.

 

[GreatGonzo]

And how many players have won the Selke trophy 6 times?

A selke doesn’t make up for the massive gap of offense though.

 

[Three On Zero]

A selke doesn’t make up for the massive gap of offense though.

And the offense doesn’t make up for the massive gap in defence.

 

[Connor McConnor]

I mean, 6x Selke winner? With a username like that I must presume that your loyalties belong to 29, but Patrice is really no slouch to have accolades like that. Scorers like Draisaitl are valuable ofc but so are guys like him who can put down the clamps.

Wow a 6x reputation award winner! I've never insinuated Bergeron is a slouch but we are talking a potential top 50 player of all time versus a borderline top 100

 

[GreatGonzo]

And the offense doesn’t make up for the massive gap in defence.

I actually disagree. I feel Bergerons defense isn’t good enough to make up for all that offense.

 

[Three On Zero]

I actually disagree. I feel Bergerons defense isn’t good enough to make up for all that offense.

That good for you, we are all entitled to our opinions. This is a thread based on hypothetical after all. This entire dialogue is summed up simply by you liking Draisaitl and me liking Bergeron

I don’t see Draisaitl as the same offensive player away from McDavid and you dont see Bergeron as one of the best defensive forwards.

 

[GreatGonzo]

That good for you, we are all entitled to our opinions. This is a thread based on hypothetical after all. This entire dialogue is summed up simply by you liking Draisaitl and me liking Bergeron

I don’t see Draisaitl as the same offensive player away from McDavid and you dont see Bergeron as one of the best defensive forwards.

You have done this countless times in this thread. You hold it against Draisaitl that he has McDavid but then don’t hold the same standards for Bergeron. If anyone “likes” anyone, you are clearly favoring Bergeron.

Can you guarantee his offense would be just as good without Marchand or Pastrnak? Can you guarantee his defense would be just as great if he didn’t play within a system that helped him excel, with a HOF Defenseman a majority of his career? With other top notch defensemen and elite goaltending overall.

It goes both ways. You can’t just say Draisaitl wouldn’t be the same, but drop off Bergeron anywhere…in any situation, and he would be just as elite as he was in Boston.

I actually do view him as such, my point is you are really over exaggerating how impactful his defense is overall.