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Draft and UDFA Thread 2017-18

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RangerSeth said:
Any chance Kotkaniemi falls to us, and if so what do y'all think of him?
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There's a chance. I like him. I think we might do better depending on who's left on the board but it wouldn't be a bad pick at all.

The good things about him--very good size, very good and productive season as a 17 year old in Finland's top league. One of the youngest players in the draft.

The thing I've heard the most that he needs to work on is skating. It's kind of like Lias last year--that's his biggest issue. IMO if not some NHL games next year--he'll be playing at least some in the NHL at the latest (barring injury) the 19-20 season. It won't take him long.

As for forwards I like Svechnikov, Zadina, Tkachuk and Wahlstrom more. On the list I've made Kotkaniemi comes in at 10--so he's definitely in the neighborhood. Ideally IMO the pick is a defenseman. We don't have a No. 1 D prospect in our system though we do have a bunch of very good young D prospects. Center is not a weakness now either though. I mean Chytil, Andersson, Howden, Nieves--we have a young centers that are coming and coming soon. If you think Chytil is a potential legit No. 1 C--adding Kotkaniemi would certainly turn that position prospect wise into a strength but we'd still be missing that guy who could be a No. 1 D.
 
RangerSeth said:
I don't know many of the Euro prospects, so I'm just going based off rankings for them. Lol

I just hope we don't go completely off the board.
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I think most scouts would agree that Kravstov is one of the most interesting players in this draft.

To me (someone who is far from an expert on these guys FTR) he seems like the guy with highest ceiling outside Dahlin and Svechnikov. His offensive tools are drool worthy.
 
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Bozle said:
I think most scouts would agree that Kravstov is one of the most interesting players in this draft.

To me (someone who is far from an expert on these guys FTR) he seems like the guy with highest ceiling outside Dahlin and Svechnikov. His offensive tools are drool worthy.
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You could make an argument for his potential, and probably Denisenko as well. From a pure talent standpoint, Denisenko is right there — maybe even slightly more naturally talented.
 
Rangers future right now by position--I'm going with guys who were 23 or younger in 17-18 that are either Rangers now or have something of a shot in the next two-three years to become an NHL player:

Goal--Shesterkin, Georgiev, Huska

Defense--Skjei, Pionk, Hajek, Lindgren, Rykov, DeAngelo, Bigras, Day

Forwards--Buchnevich, Chytil, Andersson, Howden, Ronning, Lettieri, Nieves, Gettinger, Gropp, Barron, Fontaine, Virta

Looking at this we're weakest at forward but to me the most glaring hole is a No. 1 D. Goaltending looks great. The D group I would think there is at least two top 4 players and at least 4 good NHL defensemen at least given the time. Considering that Skjei kind of already is a second pairing guy and Pionk and DeAngelo have played quite a bit in the NHL I don't think that's a reach and that's the better part of a working defense. Buchnevich is a top 6 forward--potentially a legit 1st line wing. After that Chytil, Andersson and Howden take care of the center position though Lias might end up a wing. The rest of that bunch are more reaches though I think Nieves showed enough last year to show that he could be at least a pretty decent 4th line player.

We need a No. 1 D and we need more quality forward depth. My strategy dependent on who is left on the board at 9 would be to lean towards a d-man at the No. 9 pick and forwards afterwards at least through the second round. I'd also try to move the 26 OA up into the teens if at all possible--hoping that Kravtsov or Farabee might be still around and if not I'd be looking at Bokk.
 
eco's bones said:
Rangers future right now by position--I'm going with guys who were 23 or younger in 17-18 that are either Rangers now or have something of a shot in the next two-three years to become an NHL player:

Goal--Shesterkin, Georgiev, Huska

Defense--Skjei, Pionk, Hajek, Lindgren, Rykov, DeAngelo, Bigras, Day

Forwards--Buchnevich, Chytil, Andersson, Howden, Ronning, Lettieri, Nieves, Gettinger, Gropp, Barron, Fontaine, Virta

Looking at this we're weakest at forward but to me the most glaring hole is a No. 1 D. Goaltending looks great. The D group I would think there is at least two top 4 players and at least 4 good NHL defensemen at least given the time. Considering that Skjei kind of already is a second pairing guy and Pionk and DeAngelo have played quite a bit in the NHL I don't think that's a reach and that's the better part of a working defense. Buchnevich is a top 6 forward--potentially a legit 1st line wing. After that Chytil, Andersson and Howden take care of the center position though Lias might end up a wing. The rest of that bunch are more reaches though I think Nieves showed enough last year to show that he could be at least a pretty decent 4th line player.

We need a No. 1 D and we need more quality forward depth. My strategy dependent on who is left on the board at 9 would be to lean towards a d-man at the No. 9 pick and forwards afterwards at least through the second round. I'd also try to move the 26 OA up into the teens if at all possible--hoping that Kravtsov or Farabee might be still around and if not I'd be looking at Bokk.
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I feel slightly less worried about forward for a couple of reasons.

I feel like we have some useful or potentially useful players in a good age range who don’t necessarily qualify for this list (Kreider, Zibanejad, Hayes). Whereas on defense I think we lean more toward “what you see is what you’ve got.”

I think we’d have better luck finding quality wingers down the road than quality defenseman. All things being equal, twist my arm, I lean toward a defenseman. But there are variables in place.
 
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Has anyone built out tiers through the first 100 picks or so? I'd be interested to see where the Rangers picks fall within those tiers to get a better sense about the wisdom of any potential moves.

I think the 9OA is in a consensus 3rd tier, but I have no idea where the 4th tier might end. If those late firsts are getting down into a 5th or 6th tier that extends to the mid second round or so I'd hope a move up is in the cards.
 
Edge said:
I feel slightly less worried about forward for a couple of reasons.

I feel like we have some useful or potentially useful players in a good age range who don’t necessarily qualify for this list (Kreider, Zibanejad, Hayes). Whereas on defense I think we lean more toward “what you see is what you’ve got.”

I think we’d have better luck finding quality wingers down the road than quality defenseman. All things being equal, twist my arm, I lean toward a defenseman. But there are variables in place.
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In a vacuum, I absolutely see where you’re coming from. But history shows that 1st line forwards come from the 1st round more so than do 1st pairing d-men. Would prefer to go forward heavy in the 1st round and then pick more D thereafter...
 
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RangerSeth said:
He is a top tier guy now though. Bob said he spoke to several scouts who put him ahead of Zadina.
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Personally, I’d feel a little sense of relief if Kotkaniemi goes early.

I like him a lot, but it’s also no secret I’ve had a difficult time visualizing him as a first line center. There’s a part of me that would feel conflicted if the Rangers take him 9th. Not because he doesn’t bring very good value, but because I know there’d be at least a guy on the board that I like noticeably better.
 
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We need to find a way to come away with 1 of Tkachuk, Walhstrom, Farabee or Kravtsov.

I really like Tkachuk, his game is built for the NHL, he will always be around the net, has good hands, good on the boards.

I like the idea of Walhstrom a lot, if he were to pan out of course, we haven't had a winger with a great shot since idk when. RH also.

I think Farabee is more of a guarantee, he will generate, playmaker and very good skater.

Kravtsov is very intriguing, he kinda reminds me of Chytil, tall thin, fast and explosive, too bad he is rising and we probably can't grab him with our later 1st round picks.
 
Mac n Gs said:
Safe to assume everyone but the only absolute unavailable one is Hank. I’d add that the extremely unlikely to be available group includes Lias, Chytil, Zibanejad, Skjei, and maybe Kreider/Buch.
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I think if we want to trade for pick 2, 3 or 4 Ziba or Kreids are on the table.
 
Edge said:
I think the inherent challenge is in how we define high floor/low ceiling.

I think there are a number of guys who have pretty high ceilings, but it’s not the highlight reel play and so others might assume they don’t have that ceiling.

It’s all about how we perceive these things. I think we tend to gloss over a lot of things when we talk about ceiling based on how it “looks” or what we think it might be based on key words we look for.

For me, ceiling is results.

And results is a weird mix of skill, IQ, drive, odds/percentsges, ability to play an NHL level game, an understanding of context in which a prospect is playing prior to turning pro and a lot of other factors.

There are a lot of commentary presented by people that really isn’t backed up by any kind of evidence or with any context.

The more you press them, the more you realize that things tend to fall into one of two categories:

1. They don’t really know why they believe what they believe. It’s like religion — people gravitate toward what sounds good or supports their mindset, but they don’t really think about what it means.

Or

2. They have a different definition of terms we assume are universal. This harkens back to the post I made the other day about BPA and buzz words/phrases like that. You quickly find that while you have the same broad concept in mind, you ultimately view the components of that concept quite differently.

In either case, I think we often have a hard time understanding why there is a difference in how someone can view something so differently.

So we talk about risk and ceilings, but I think those can be abstract terms. We don’t stop to consider that what we view as skill, isn’t what someone else does. Likewise, we don’t always account for the understanding that someone else doesn’t think a certain players upside is the same as we do.

In short, I think it’s a lot more complicated than most people realize and that’s why we follow these things as a hobby and not as an occupation.
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Completely agree with you. But if you aren't a scout and/or on the board, your informations must be originated from the media.
For example IMO we need scoring winger. We need somebody who can score 40+ and mor than 80pts, somebody like Ovie, Laine, Boeser... Somebody who can be our franchise for decade. Is it correct?
BTW what is your category?
 
GregSirico said:
Kotkaniemi is now going 3rd now, there is no doubt about it I think.
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I'm okay with that. Some people see the next Kopitar. I'm thinking maybe similar to Zibanejad. He would be a good pick at 9 if we were to choose him there. There would at least be one other guy that I would take before him at 9 though.

On the Rangers official site--there's a video clip interview of Dave Quinn and Darren Pang asks him about Tkachuk and Quinn says he sees him becoming more of a goal scorer and mentions his good hands. I'm sure the Rangers have particular players in mind and I expect them to move up to get them if possible. I think Tkachuk and Quinn are probably their two main targets. I'm wondering whether the Rangers will make a big push to get another pick in the top 10--Montreal, Ottawa, Arizona, Vancouver and try to get both.

As for what that would take I don't know. Quinn has ties to certain Rangers players--Shattenkirk and Hayes for two. Not saying the Rangers wouldn't move either but I think they'd be most reluctant to move those two.
 
eco's bones said:
I'm okay with that. Some people see the next Kopitar. I'm thinking maybe similar to Zibanejad. He would be a good pick at 9 if we were to choose him there. There would at least be one other guy that I would take before him at 9 though.

On the Rangers official site--there's a video clip interview of Dave Quinn and Darren Pang asks him about Tkachuk and Quinn says he sees him becoming more of a goal scorer and mentions his good hands. I'm sure the Rangers have particular players in mind and I expect them to move up to get them if possible. I think Tkachuk and Quinn are probably their two main targets. I'm wondering whether the Rangers will make a big push to get another pick in the top 10--Montreal, Ottawa, Arizona, Vancouver and try to get both.

As for what that would take I don't know. Quinn has ties to certain Rangers players--Shattenkirk and Hayes for two. Not saying the Rangers wouldn't move either but I think they'd be most reluctant to move those two.
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Whats his tie with Hayes?

I'd group the player's likeliness to move as such

0% Unless they say otherwise: Hank, Staal (vomit), Smith

Very unlikely barring an extreme overpayment: Shattenkirk, Skjei, Zibanejad, Kreider, Hayes, Chytil, Andersson

Unlikely because reasons: Vesey

less than 50%: Pionk, Fast, Buchnevich

50/50: Namesinkov/Spooner, Zuccarello

Available: DeAngelo, Pionk, Namesinkov/Spooner
 
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Go Away Staal said:
Whats his tie with Hayes?

I'd group the player's likeliness to move as such

0% Unless they say otherwise: Hank, Staal (vomit), Smith

Very unlikely barring an extreme overpayment: Shattenkirk, Skjei, Zibanejad, Kreider, Hayes, Chytil, Andersson

Unlikely because reasons: Vesey

less than 50%: Pionk, Fast, Buchnevich

50/50: Namesinkov/Spooner, Zuccarello

Available: DeAngelo, Pionk, Namesinkov/Spooner
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Huh. I don't see those categories the same at all.

0% likely to move: Hank, Chytil, Andersson

Very unlikely barring an extreme overpayment: Shattenkirk, Skjei, Zibanejad, Pionk, Buchnevich

Unlikely (reasons or otherwise): Kreider*, Staal, Smith

Less than 50%: Namestnikov (Spooner), Hayes, Vesey, Fast, DeAngelo, Gilmour, O'Gara

50/50: Spooner (Namestnikov), Zuccarello

(Actively) available: Zuccarello, Spooner (Namestnikov), Hayes, Kreider*, DeAngelo, Gilmour, O'Gara, Vesey (in order of likelihood to be traded)

*I have Kreider in these categories, because of the players who could garner an extreme overpayment, he's the one they would be most likely to move (due to age, desirability, and contractual status) as a jolt to the rebuilding process.
 
Go Away Staal said:
Whats his tie with Hayes?

I'd group the player's likeliness to move as such

0% Unless they say otherwise: Hank, Staal (vomit), Smith

Very unlikely barring an extreme overpayment: Shattenkirk, Skjei, Zibanejad, Kreider, Hayes, Chytil, Andersson

Unlikely because reasons: Vesey

less than 50%: Pionk, Fast, Buchnevich

50/50: Namesinkov/Spooner, Zuccarello

Available: DeAngelo, Pionk, Namesinkov/Spooner
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He tried to recruit Hayes to BU--but though Hayes went to BC they've kept in regular contact with each other ever since or at least Hayes has said so. Amanda Borges interviews him on the Rangers website on June 1st.

A couple of Hayes comments from that:

On Quinn's hiring: 'I was pretty pumped up about it. I've known Quinn-y for a while now. He recruited me when I went to college and we've built a pretty good friendship since then'.

On their prior relationship: 'He's actually reached out to me while I've been in the NHL prior to this---not about coaching---just about my game and stuff'.

Hayes and Shattenkirk IMO are not likely going anywhere. I wouldn't be hiring a coach and then trading away players that he knows and want to play for him. I'm expecting to get a letter this year and Shattenkirk might too. I'm not sure where Kreider fits into this but it might be a similar thing---a lot of these guys out of Boston hang together and generally they have very good personalities. One other thing is that the Hayes and Tkachuk brothers are cousins.
 
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Mock draft of the day for me

9 - Wahlstrom
26 - Wilde
28 - Miller
39 - Foudy
48 - O'Brien
70 - Wise
88 - Fehervary
101 - Almeida
132 - Perunovich
163 - Iskhahov

And then I woke up.
 
eco's bones said:
He tried to recruit Hayes to BU--but though Hayes went to BC they've kept in regular contact with each other ever since or at least Hayes has said so. Amanda Borges interviews him on the Rangers website on June 1st.

A couple of Hayes comments from that:

On Quinn's hiring: 'I was pretty pumped up about it. I've known Quinn-y for a while now. He recruited me when I went to college and we've built a pretty good friendship since then'.

On their prior relationship: 'He's actually reached out to me while I've been in the NHL prior to this---not about coaching---just about my game and stuff'.
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Quinn also coached Jimmy Hayes in 2008, US under 18s.

Justin Faulk too
 
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Sarge13 said:
Quinn also coached Jimmy Hayes in 2008, US under 18s.

Justin Faulk too
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Yeah I added a little more to my post. It sounds to me that Quinn has connections to a lot of Boston area hockey players + those who played for BU, BC--probably Harvard and maybe others like Northeastern and U. Mass Lowell---as well he has a lot of connections to players who played for the US National teams in the past.
 
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Brooklyn Rangers Fan said:
Huh. I don't see those categories the same at all.

0% likely to move: Hank, Chytil, Andersson

Very unlikely barring an extreme overpayment: Shattenkirk, Skjei, Zibanejad, Pionk, Buchnevich

Unlikely (reasons or otherwise): Kreider*, Staal, Smith

Less than 50%: Namestnikov (Spooner), Hayes, Vesey, Fast, DeAngelo, Gilmour, O'Gara

50/50: Spooner (Namestnikov), Zuccarello

(Actively) available: Zuccarello, Spooner (Namestnikov), Hayes, Kreider*, DeAngelo, Gilmour, O'Gara, Vesey (in order of likelihood to be traded)

*I have Kreider in these categories, because of the players who could garner an extreme overpayment, he's the one they would be most likely to move (due to age, desirability, and contractual status) as a jolt to the rebuilding process.
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I don't see any of the Boston area NCAA guys being traded. I'm fine with letting Kreider go if the return is right, like #10 OA++.

The other thing is that he was one of the few guys who really stood out in a positive way after the letter. A lot of guys dogged it afterwards, he was one of maybe 5 or 6 guys who didn't.
 
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eco's bones said:
Yeah I added a little more to my post. It sounds to me that Quinn has connections to a lot of Boston area hockey players + those who played for BU, BC--probably Harvard and maybe others like Northeastern and U. Mass Lowell---as well he has a lot of connections to players who played for the US National teams in the past.
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Gorton, Greeley, Quinn, Gordie Clark - all northeast guys who have roots in the Boston clubs as well as Providence and u of Maine.

I was a mainstay at the Providence College hockey camps in the 1980s all of these guys are very familiar to me.
 
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