Dougie Hamilton or Mackenzie Weegar?

[Xirik]

Hamilton sucks.

Hamilton Beating the Canucks must have been very traumatizing for you.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Hamilton Beating the Canucks must have been very traumatizing for you.

I’ll rephrase.

I’ve never been sold on Hamilton being a top pairing defenseman. Weegar to me is a top pairing guy who is great in all 200ft of ice. Weegar may not be as great offensively as Hamilton but Weegar isn’t a slouch in that regard either and is by far the most complete.

I don’t think he “sucks” in that he’s trash like a Nurse or Trouba but as far as top pairing dman goes I do think he sucks as a top pairing defenseman.

He’s always been such a polarizing player to me. Great skating ability, tremendous scoring ability from the point, offensively gifted, has the size, but his low mental acuity, his inability to effectively use his size coupled with his general poor defensive hockey sense and lazy tendencies is frankly off putting.

To me he’s very much in the Matheson, Klingberg, Mike Green, Hronek category of OFD that aren’t really top pairing level but their minutes and usage gives the illusion that they are because of a set of circumstances such as not having a true all situations #1D, lack of defensive depth, or because they individually possess an isolated strength in either offensive or defensive ability that the team prioritizes.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Devils fan saying Weegar and someone who loves Dougie, Weegar is just a complete 200 ft animal and I think Dougie's injury from last year is gonna hamper him from being stable enough to ride out the rest of his career.

I’ll rephrase.

I’ve never been sold on Hamilton being a top pairing defenseman. Weegar to me is a top pairing guy who is great in all 200ft of ice. Weegar may not be as great offensively as Hamilton but Weegar isn’t a slouch in that regard either and is by far the most complete.

I don’t think he “sucks” in that he’s trash like a Nurse or Trouba but as far as top pairing dman goes I do think he sucks as a top pairing defenseman.

He’s always been such a polarizing player to me. Great skating ability, tremendous scoring ability from the point, offensively gifted, has the size, but his low mental acuity, his inability to effectively use his size coupled with his general poor defensive hockey sense and lazy tendencies is frankly off putting.

To me he’s very much in the Matheson, Klingberg, Mike Green, Hronek category of OFD that aren’t really top pairing level but their minutes and usage gives the illusion that they are because of a set of circumstances such as not having a true all situations #1D, lack of defensive depth, or because they individually possess an isolated strength in either offensive or defensive ability that the team needs.

Not totally off base, I think the Mike Green comparison is pretty damn bad. He's miles better than Green ever was defensively. Siegenthalar had a catastrophic year once Hamliton went down last year and so did the entire defensive core when they were borderline elite, top 3 unit in 22-23 with Hamilton eating a ton of minutes.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Devils fan saying Weegar and someone who loves Dougie, Weegar is just a complete 200 ft animal and I think Dougie's injury from last year is gonna hamper him from being stable enough to ride out the rest of his career.



Not totally off base, I think the Mike Green comparison is pretty damn bad. He's miles better than Green ever was defensively.

I’m not comparing them player to player, but grouping them in a category of similar types of OFD dman and the situations they were in.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

This is an interesting poll because both of these guys are much less effective in the playoffs. Weegar because of his lack of pace, and Hamilton because he's the softest 6'5 defenseman in the league.

Dougie right now this second might not be better than Weegar coming off a very serious injury, but if we're looking at his play last year and the year before, I think it's clear he's a superior defenseman.

He's got a rep for being bad defensively, but the numbers just don't show it. He plays a standard workload, and doesn't give up goals at a substandard rate, while driving possession metrics very strongly. He's prone to occasionally getting caught flatfooted because he's not a particularly great skater, and I think those are things that people remember, when his normal, boring, quality defensive play gets overlooked.

At the same cost, assuming some semblance of health, I'd take Dougie every time. And I like Weegar a lot.

Ironically, I think this is the best I've seen Hamilton play in my long history of watching Dougie Hamilton. The points haven't been there yet, but he's been significantly better defensively under Keefe.

Historically, he's had to be babysat in order to have success. Giordano, Slavin, Siegenthaler etc. This year in the first I've seen where he doesn't look like he needs a babysitter.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Siegenthalar had a catastrophic year once Hamliton went down last year and so did the entire defensive core

I don't think you can blame the fall off of Marino on Hamilton. And Siegenthaler was battling injuries for much of the year.

Hamilton played the first 20 games and the team wasn't exactly playing great even before his injury.

when they were borderline elite, top 3 unit in 22-23 with Hamilton eating a ton of minutes.

It was a pretty different group. We moved on from Graves and Severson.

Siegs - Hamilton
Graves - Marino
Bahl/Smith - Severson

vs

Bahl/Hughes - Marino
Siegs - Nemec
Hughes/Bahl - Smith/Miller

Bahl was a pretty big downgrade from 2022 Graves and we introduced 2 young rookies. It's a big chemistry change ignoring the Hamilton injury.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I agree that Dougie’s a complimentary player in the sense that you need to have a particular kind of partner for him if you want him to thrive against top competition. But that’s not as much of a negative as it sounds at face value. I think of guys like Karlsson and Slavin (to take two extreme opposites) who are really elite players but are not do-everything types.

When the Canes had both Hamilton and Slavin, it was a case of pairing two guys who each need a particular kind of partner to maximize their skills. And they were, if not the very best pairing in the league, at least in contention for the best on any given night. How could that put them individually at a lower tier than a guy who is not widely seen as a desirable #1D at all?

Well it wouldn't be that alone that gives me cause to rate Weegar as the better dman than Hamilton. Just one factor.

Let's just go over the various attributes one looks for in a top pairing defenseman

Offense - Clear edge to Hamilton, although not as big a gap as you'd think. Weegar for the first time in his career started getting significant PP time last season after Hanifin was traded and performed well there. Even strength production is fairly close(DH 0.4 career EV ppg, MW 0.38 career EV ppg). Both have great shots, Dougie shoots more, I think Weegs has a touch more creativity as a playmaker.

Defense - Clear edge to Weegar, although again not quite as big a gap as you'd think. Both guys can get a little lackadaisical defensively, both guys can make some odd braindead mistakes, Weegar more physical and a more active stick. Better takeaways, hits, and blocks per 82 for Mackenzie.

Skating - Used to be Dougie, probably still has an edge top speed wise but the injuries have definitely affected his agility and especially his pivots. Would rate this more or less even, Weegs has the better 4 direction movement, Hamilton still smoother North-South.

Physicality - Clear edge to Weegar, Dougie lays the odd hit and can box out but not really a big part of his game. Weegs very tough on fwds on the boards and in the slot. Will light somebody up every 3rd or 4th game.

Transition - Not sure there's all that much of a clear edge here, both are good in transition. Weegs has some of the best transition numbers for any defenseman in the last 5 years both defending and creating rush chances so I'll give him the decision on this one.

Intangibles/Leadership - Got to give this to Weegs too. I never really bought all the Dougie Museum drama, I'm sure he's just fine in a locker room and a good guy. Judging from what I see on the ice I dunno if I've ever seen him elevate or find that next level of intensity that could have made him a great all around #1. Seems like he's happy to quietly play his minutes, pickup his points, collect his cheque, and carry on. Weegs steps in to defend his teammates, plays with real emotion, and can elevate when needed to. Off the ice Dougie never did much media or struck me as a positive influence on young players like Weegar does. Maybe that's unfair but that was my read on it.


I like my top pairing dmen to be guys you can put out there in all situations. Call it personal preference but I prefer Weegar's all around qualities to Hamilton's. Not a huge margin or anything, but considering he's younger and quite a bit cheaper as well I agree with the results of the poll. Lot less tread on the tires for Weegar too, Dougie has now only played over 65 games once since 2019.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Well it wouldn't be that alone that gives me cause to rate Weegar as the better dman than Hamilton. Just one factor.

Let's just go over the various attributes one looks for in a top pairing defenseman

Offense - Clear edge to Hamilton, although not as big a gap as you'd think. Weegar for the first time in his career started getting significant PP time last season after Hanifin was traded and performed well there. Even strength production is fairly close(DH 0.4 career EV ppg, MW 0.38 career EV ppg). Both have great shots, Dougie shoots more, I think Weegs has a touch more creativity as a playmaker.

Defense - Clear edge to Weegar, although again not quite as big a gap as you'd think. Both guys can get a little lackadaisical defensively, both guys can make some odd braindead mistakes, Weegar more physical and a more active stick. Better takeaways, hits, and blocks per 82 for Mackenzie.

Skating - Used to be Dougie, probably still has an edge top speed wise but the injuries have definitely affected his agility and especially his pivots. Would rate this more or less even, Weegs has the better 4 direction movement, Hamilton still smoother North-South.

Physicality - Clear edge to Weegar, Dougie lays the odd hit and can box out but not really a big part of his game. Weegs very tough on fwds on the boards and in the slot. Will light somebody up every 3rd or 4th game.

Transition - Not sure there's all that much of a clear edge here, both are good in transition. Weegs has some of the best transition numbers for any defenseman in the last 5 years both defending and creating rush chances so I'll give him the decision on this one.

Intangibles/Leadership - Got to give this to Weegs too. I never really bought all the Dougie Museum drama, I'm sure he's just fine in a locker room and a good guy. Judging from what I see on the ice I dunno if I've ever seen him elevate or find that next level of intensity that could have made him a great all around #1. Seems like he's happy to quietly play his minutes, pickup his points, collect his cheque, and carry on. Weegs steps in to defend his teammates, plays with real emotion, and can elevate when needed to. Off the ice Dougie never did much media or struck me as a positive influence on young players like Weegar does. Maybe that's unfair but that was my read on it.


I like my top pairing dmen to be guys you can put out there in all situations. Call it personal preference but I prefer Weegar's all around qualities to Hamilton's. Not a huge margin or anything, but considering he's younger and quite a bit cheaper as well I agree with the results of the poll. Lot less tread on the tires for Weegar too, Dougie has now only played over 65 games once since 2019

That’s as good of a breakdown as we’re likely to get around here.

 

[Xirik]

Well it wouldn't be that alone that gives me cause to rate Weegar as the better dman than Hamilton. Just one factor.

Let's just go over the various attributes one looks for in a top pairing defenseman

Offense - Clear edge to Hamilton, although not as big a gap as you'd think. Weegar for the first time in his career started getting significant PP time last season after Hanifin was traded and performed well there. Even strength production is fairly close(DH 0.4 career EV ppg, MW 0.38 career EV ppg). Both have great shots, Dougie shoots more, I think Weegs has a touch more creativity as a playmaker.

Defense - Clear edge to Weegar, although again not quite as big a gap as you'd think. Both guys can get a little lackadaisical defensively, both guys can make some odd braindead mistakes, Weegar more physical and a more active stick. Better takeaways, hits, and blocks per 82 for Mackenzie.

Skating - Used to be Dougie, probably still has an edge top speed wise but the injuries have definitely affected his agility and especially his pivots. Would rate this more or less even, Weegs has the better 4 direction movement, Hamilton still smoother North-South.

Physicality - Clear edge to Weegar, Dougie lays the odd hit and can box out but not really a big part of his game. Weegs very tough on fwds on the boards and in the slot. Will light somebody up every 3rd or 4th game.

Transition - Not sure there's all that much of a clear edge here, both are good in transition. Weegs has some of the best transition numbers for any defenseman in the last 5 years both defending and creating rush chances so I'll give him the decision on this one.

Intangibles/Leadership - Got to give this to Weegs too. I never really bought all the Dougie Museum drama, I'm sure he's just fine in a locker room and a good guy. Judging from what I see on the ice I dunno if I've ever seen him elevate or find that next level of intensity that could have made him a great all around #1. Seems like he's happy to quietly play his minutes, pickup his points, collect his cheque, and carry on. Weegs steps in to defend his teammates, plays with real emotion, and can elevate when needed to. Off the ice Dougie never did much media or struck me as a positive influence on young players like Weegar does. Maybe that's unfair but that was my read on it.


I like my top pairing dmen to be guys you can put out there in all situations. Call it personal preference but I prefer Weegar's all around qualities to Hamilton's. Not a huge margin or anything, but considering he's younger and quite a bit cheaper as well I agree with the results of the poll. Lot less tread on the tires for Weegar too, Dougie has now only played over 65 games once since 2019.

stopped reading there.

Hamilton 74 point high AFTER he left Calgary and Carolina

Holy biases of biased-ness Batman.

 

[Bounces R Way]

I'm a huge Devils homer

Ya we get it man, we know.

 

[Xirik]

I'm a Flames Homer, I cheer for a low budget team with a collapsing arena and a cheap owner.

Admitting is half the battle.

 

[1specter]

stopped reading there.

Hamilton 74 point high AFTER he left Calgary and Carolina

Holy biases of biased-ness Batman.

Maybe you should actually read the rest of what he said? Weegar never had first unit PP duties in his career until last season, his previous best season prior to last year was his final season in Florida where he put up 44 pts and only played 40 seconds a game of 2nd unit PP time. Their 5v5 scoring is actually comparable, and in their career years ('23-'24 for Weegar, '22-'23 for Hamilton) Weegar had 15G 30pts at 5v5 while Hamilton had 13g 36 pts. Hamilton's PP production is obviously a positive, but comparing what Dougie had on his PP unit to what Weegar worked with last year is also night and day.

He gave Hamilton his props and was just trying to illustrate that Weegar is actually pretty good offensively, more than people would've guessed.

Edit: Ah and there's the laugh emoji, my man has the maturity of a grade school kid

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Hamilton is extremely overrated. Never close to Norris quality despite the votes.

 

[Favin]

Weegar was once underrated...but am afraid he has now become overrated.

 

[biturbo19]

Dougie is the taller player and better powerplay defenceman...but other than that, i'd take Weegar in pretty much every facet.

 

[PullHard]

Hamilton has more offensive tools in his toolbox but Weegar is the better overall defender.

 

[dgibb10]

A quick look so far this year

EV individual. Of note, the fact that dougie gets twice as many shots.

EV on ice (Holy shit so much for "the offensive gap isn't actually that big")

In terms of the PP, again, Dougie leading an elite power play, Weegar leading a pretty shitty one

Early into this season, but so far it has NOT been close, and it has not been pretty for Weegar