Doughty feels he and Karlsson deserve 'quite a bit more' money than Subban

[Siddi]

No one takes that guy seriously, neither should you. He's had an axe to grind against Doughty since the Kings put away the rangers.

That is a bold statement to make from some one who has been on this site less than 6 months.

 

[Hole in the Condon]

Based on everything prior to this year, Karlsson definitely deserves more than Subban. Based on everything we've seen so far this year from him, he deserves about the same. The rest of this season will be very influential on how this off-season goes in regards to his contract negotiations. I'm hoping he finds that extra gear again, but it looks like he tweaked his ankle in Sweden. He should have had a few more games (Or more) off to start the season. The team was playing relatively well despite him being out.

 

[Sol]

That is a bold statement to make from some one who has been on this site less than 6 months.

Did you know that you don't need an account to view the site?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The definitive ranking of the NHL's top 23 defencemen over three seasons - Sportsnet.ca

http://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Karlsson.png

http://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Doughty.png (Doughty for reference)

It's a really comprehensive study which combines analytics with things like blocks, interceptions, checks, dumps, etc. It tells us what we've known in the East for a long time - Kalrsson is elite in his own zone.

I'm not going to sit here and debate him and Doughty again but if people don't think Karlsson is good defensively, then they need to give 2013 its memes back.

That's cool that it's pretty comprehensive, but I'm skeptical that we don't have access to a ton of that data and that it relies on a lot of the same systems that the HERO charts do.

 

[Machinehead]

That's cool that it's pretty comprehensive, but I'm skeptical that we don't have access to a ton of that data and that it relies on a lot of the same systems that the HERO charts do.

I think that's very fair. I just wanted to fill you in on the metrics since you asked what numbers.

Then it got off the rails with the usual "Karlsson is horrible is his own zone" crap but I know you're not really guilty of that.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think that's very fair. I just wanted to fill you in on the metrics since you asked what numbers.

Then it got off the rails with the usual "Karlsson is horrible is his own zone" crap but I know you're not really guilty of that.

No I definitely appreciate it and I like the guys that put work into it. I just hate that others have access to more metrics than we do given we've hit this thing like a pinata for years.

 

[joe dirte]

I think that's very fair. I just wanted to fill you in on the metrics since you asked what numbers.

Then it got off the rails with the usual "Karlsson is horrible is his own zone" crap but I know you're not really guilty of that.

he was for many years. hes made strides, and last year was decent, not great.

I don't see why that bothers you. hes the best dman in the league offensively. that's what he's paid for. hes just not great defensively. hes actually improved quite a bit though.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

There are subjective "stats" that are recorded by employees of the home team who tend to inflate certain numbers, like blocked shots, hits, giveaways, takeaways, even shots on goals (I've seen numerous coaches state that they have their own separate team of stats guys keeping track of shots).

So make of it what you will when you look at those numbers. They aren't objective. It's left to the interpretation of whoever decides what a hit or a giveaway or a takeaway is on any given night.

 

[Siddi]

Did you know that you don't need an account to view the site?

yes

 

[joe dirte]

There are subjective "stats" that are recorded by employees of the home team who tend to inflate certain numbers, like blocked shots, hits, giveaways, takeaways, even shots on goals (I've seen numerous coaches state that they have their own separate team of stats guys keeping track of shots).

So make of it what you will when you look at those numbers. They aren't objective. It's left to the interpretation of whoever decides what a hit or a giveaway or a takeaway is on any given night.

yeah. all the stats that they used to list as RTSS stats on the NHL site are terrible. there are some teams that somehow manage 3 or 4 times the number of steals at home than they do on the road. they're so wildly inconsistent. steals and giveaways are the worst ones.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Those subjective stats are certainly varied but I don't think they're inherently awful, they just need context and to not be taken as gospel, which is the real problem.

Nevertheless I think those conglomerate rankings aren't too far off the mark, but I think even those of us who have butted heads over the year will agree that anything that says EK is better defensively than Doughty but worse in transition has to be examined since I'd argue most of us would assert the complete opposite (Doughty better defensively, EK better at transition, though both certainly underrated in those areas). And more as it relates to the thread, anything that pumps up Subban is fine by me, as he's generally underrated in my eyes.

 

[Deficient Mode]

The data used to determine that Karlsson leads the league in those things wasn't tracked by employees of the home arena or really by people at all. It was tracked by video software. So if it's flawed, it's flawed in a universal way. Not because one scorekeeper is more generous than another.

Backed by over seven years of university research, our technology generates advanced hockey analytics using standard, single-camera game footage. Our proprietary computer vision system uses a combination of player tracking, and activity recognition algorithms to flag specific game events such as shots or passes, timestamp them, and record their XY coordinates on the ice. Once the raw data is collected, machine learning and pattern recognition techniques are utilized to extract meaningful insights, allowing broadcasters, teams, analysts and fans see and understand the game in a way previously not possible.

As for why Karlsson comes out better in the defense category than Doughty, that probably has more to do with how the author of the article decided to weigh their numbers in certain stats in the formula of their overall defensive/transition value. That can be criticized too to a degree. It'd be hard to look at that data and not come to the conclusion that Karlsson is one of the best defenders in the league however, no matter how you weighed different factors.

 

[Sol]

yes

Glad you know now.

 

[joe dirte]

Those subjective stats are certainly varied but I don't think they're inherently awful, they just need context and to not be taken as gospel, which is the real problem.

Nevertheless I think those conglomerate rankings aren't too far off the mark, but I think even those of us who have butted heads over the year will agree that anything that says EK is better defensively than Doughty but worse in transition has to be examined since I'd argue most of us would assert the complete opposite (Doughty better defensively, EK better at transition, though both certainly underrated in those areas). And more as it relates to the thread, anything that pumps up Subban is fine by me, as he's generally underrated in my eyes.

if you filter out home games they are a little less biased. but in my opinion the fact that they vary so much from rink to rink means they become mostly useless.

and every single stat should be looked at in context and should not be taken as gospel. there is no single stat that tells the whole story.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

There are subjective "stats" that are recorded by employees of the home team who tend to inflate certain numbers, like blocked shots, hits, giveaways, takeaways, even shots on goals (I've seen numerous coaches state that they have their own separate team of stats guys keeping track of shots).

So make of it what you will when you look at those numbers. They aren't objective. It's left to the interpretation of whoever decides what a hit or a giveaway or a takeaway is on any given night.

Those numbers are indeed garbage. Nobody (I think) is referring to them. Giveaways for example are counted differently in different arenas... no consistency to them at all.

But we can take a look at possession data and with or without you numbers. Those numbers carry weight as does point production.

 

[ManofSteel55]

It's almost as if there was a correlation between missing games and a drop in pts total.

Would you rather have the guy who has never had a serious injury or the guy who has had injuries in 2 of the past 3 seasons that have kept him out for significant time?

 

[Little Psycho]

Karlsson is easily a $10+ million player. Melnyk better be ready to open his pocket book for once.

Yeah about that...

 

[kilowatt]

Those subjective stats are certainly varied but I don't think they're inherently awful, they just need context and to not be taken as gospel, which is the real problem.

Nevertheless I think those conglomerate rankings aren't too far off the mark, but I think even those of us who have butted heads over the year will agree that anything that says EK is better defensively than Doughty but worse in transition has to be examined since I'd argue most of us would assert the complete opposite (Doughty better defensively, EK better at transition, though both certainly underrated in those areas). And more as it relates to the thread, anything that pumps up Subban is fine by me, as he's generally underrated in my eyes.

You hit the nail on the head here.

 

[egelband]

For me, durability would be a key factor in awarding a contract. And I think Subban and Doughty are probably the better bets to get through their big deals healthy. They’re all three so talented. And factors like linemates, team success, and puck luck can be huge factors. If I were to pick, id get a doctors opinion on which one is most likely to maintain their fitness best and go that way.

 

[maacoshark]

I don't have a problem with Doughty saying that. He ius the best 2 way defence man in the league right now. And Karlsson is the most gifted offensive defence man. Subban might only be the 3rd best d man on his team.

 

[MisterNoItAll]

The thing is Doughty and Karlsson are not worth 10-11M/year. They’re worth about 8-9M/year, and Subban isn’t worth more than 6M/year, but that idiot owner of the Habs decided to cave to Subban’s agent’s demands, and now the price of defenseman has inflated. There’s easily 15 defenseman better than Subban who will ask for equal or more money than him when their contracts expire. How will Nashville afford to keep Josi in the future? He’s better than PK, he’s the captain, he’s going to ask for at least 9M/year, and he knows if Nashville won’t pay him, another team will. Watch Nashville to trade Subban when it comes near the time to signing Josi.

 

[InAllOurLeafsCommand]

If Karlsson's game has truly taken a hit due to his injuries, signing to him to a long term $12+ million contract may be the final nail in the Sens coffin. Lucky for them Dorion can't sign him until next summer, so there is still the rest of the season left to evaluate him.

 

[Babooch]

Karlsson isn't even playing well enough now to generate troll comments to move him up to forward. Crazy position to be in for the GM.

 

[Fazkovsky]

To be honest the gap between doughty and subban isn’t that big at all

 

[Filthy Dangles]

You said he gets scored on in droves. I said he really doesn't. And then you say "well if Doughty was on the Senators!!!!"

That has nothing to do with anything.



The definitive ranking of the NHL's top 23 defencemen over three seasons - Sportsnet.ca

http://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Karlsson.png

http://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Doughty.png (Doughty for reference)

It's a really comprehensive study which combines analytics with things like blocks, interceptions, checks, dumps, etc. It tells us what we've known in the East for a long time - Kalrsson is elite in his own zone.

I'm not going to sit here and debate him and Doughty again but if people don't think Karlsson is good defensively, then they need to give 2013 its memes back.

Surprised you quoted a source that has Cam fowler top 10 and one of the most Impactful defensively.

You change your mind on him?