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Don't you have to fire Therrien now?

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Nynja*

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Daniels45 said:
There is not much a coach can do when injuries and slumps occur other than to mix it up and try to find lines that can keep the ship afloat and hope that his goalies will keep the team in the game for as long as possible. No in situations like these you need to work hard, stay positive and know that things will turn around eventually cause they usually do.
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Injuries to forwards crippling offence eh?

Hawks lost Kane last year for 2 months, they went 13-6-1
2014 Wings had SO many injuries: Alfie missed 14 games, Zett missed 37, Dats missed 37, three top players (Alfie was in his twilight, but he was still their leading point getter) and yet somehow this team finished 39-28-15. There was a stretch of 16 games they were missing Dats and Zett (and Alfie missed the 16th), and the team went 8-6-2 (also winning the game where all 3 were scratched too).
Pens in 2011 missed Crosby for 37 games and Malkin for 39 games, their two best players. This team finished first in their division. For 35 games, the entire end of the season, they were missing Crosby and Malkin. In those 35 games, the team went 20-11-4 (Malkin played one game Feb 4 where he had 6 min of ice time, I'm assuming he re-aggravated his injury)

Gallagher is not near Kane, Dats/Zetterberg or Crosby/Malkin...but when those 5 players went down, their team fared just fine.


Goalie injuries?

Nashville lost Rinne last year for 2 weeks, and they still went 4-2-2
Rangers lost Hank last year for 7 weeks, and they went 18-5-3

Pekka Rinne's record in his 24 games that he did play was 10-10-3 (he got pulled one game and the Preds came back to win). Here were the standings at the end of the day before his first game back. With 21 games to go, they were 4 points out of 8th place, and the 8th place team had a game in hand on them. At that point the Preds had a 0.508 point percentage. Rinne went 7-6-2 the rest of the way, a .533 point percentage. His injury was hardly a factor in the Preds not making the playoffs. (I believe this one was in 2014, I was replying to someone when I made this post)

More examples of goalie injuries? In 2009 Luongo missed 6 weeks for Vancouver. At that time, he was considered in the top 5 of goaltenders in the game. From Nov 22 (the game he got hurt, he played 4 min and faced one shot) to Jan 13, the Canucks played 25 games, and their record was 10-12-3, a point percentage of .460

.460 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .181


You're just making excuses for Therrien. If the habs were playing .400-.500 hockey thoughout December, the habs would have around 50 points right now, and this would never come up. No one expected the habs to keep playing .800 hockey without Gallagher and Price. We were 3-0-1 with both of them out of the lineup though before MT shuffled the lines. We werent going to keep playing .875 hockey with them out of the lineup, no ones going to make that statement, but MT shuffled the lines before we even lost a game in regulation, and at that point, thats when everything started to spiral out of control.

Thats on Therrien.
 
Sorinth

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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Daniels45 said:
Losing a goaltender, especially a top 5 will generally hurt you more, especially if your backup cant hold the fort. We could lose Patches or even Suban, but with Carey Price in the Net, are chances of winning are still higher than the reverse. With Carey we stand a chance of winning them 1 0 games. Not with Condon/Tuk
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Never said otherwise, but the point is that we can't seem to adapt when we lose. With a worse goalie we should play a more defensive system. We should collapse to the front of the net to protect the slot. Yet we haven't made these changes, Therrien does everything exactly the same way regardless of the lineup in front of him. That's a huge flaw and is one of the reasons for our current slump.

Mathletic said:
I didn't say Crosby isn't better than Adams. I said over 60 minutes, you can take the most lopsided of difference between 2 players and it still doesn't make that big a difference. It's a given that over 1000+ minutes it's a different story.

Canadiens won the equivalent of 55 games last year. If Gallagher is worth 6 wins then let's go through the rest. Let's give Pacio 8, Plekanec 7, Subban 9, Price 15, Markov 7, Galchenyuk 5 and we're already over 55. I gave Gallagher the equivalent of 6 wins for the year over Byron but in reality it's less than that.
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Except no player is winning the game singlehandedly, even Price needs us to score 1 goal. Assigning a # of wins to a player is simply nonsensical. If you trade Gallagher to say Dallas or Chicago for scraps, do you really think they'll end up with exactly 6 more wins, what if we trade him to Edmonton, does Edmonton also win 6 more games?

Players aren't worth X number of wins because they aren't winning games in a vacuum, they simply change the odds of winning a game.
 

Daniels45

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May 8, 2013
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Milhouse40 said:
Here's a crazy theory.
Play your best player more and your worst player less.

Therrien is doing the opposite.
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Thats just it though. Who is consistently our best player? Ide say no one cause one day its Galchy, the next its DD and the next after that it could be Patches, Fleicheman or someone else.
 
Milhouse40

Milhouse40

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Daniels45 said:
Thats just it though. Who is consistently our best player? Ide say no one cause one day its Galchy, the next its DD and the next after that it could be Patches, Fleicheman or someone else.
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Funny cvause Desharnais always end up playing more than Galchenyuk who's been like 10000000000000X better than Desharnais in pretty much every game since Mid-november.

Galchenyuk has been mostly our best player in the last 20 games and Desharnais has been our worst.
 

Daniels45

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May 8, 2013
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Milhouse40 said:
Funny cvause Desharnais always end up playing more than Galchenyuk who's been like 10000000000000X better than Desharnais in pretty much every game since Mid-november.

Galchenyuk has been mostly our best player in the last 20 games and Desharnais has been our worst.
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Galchy was put on the first line with Patches for 2 games. How did that turn out?
 
habfaninvictoria

habfaninvictoria

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Daniels45 said:
There is not much a coach can do when injuries and slumps occur other than to mix it up and try to find lines that can keep the ship afloat and hope that his goalies will keep the team in the game for as long as possible. No in situations like these you need to work hard, stay positive and know that things will turn around eventually cause they usually do.
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This literally makes no sense. Your solution is to mix-it-up and hope that hard work pays off. By that logic, there is equal, or perhaps better than equal chance that not mixing it up, hoping and hard work will pay off. If you mix-it-up and it works then is the result fluke or good coaching? If you don't, is the result fluke or good coaching? Is it all fluke?

The problem is that if you mix it up and it works for one or two games, you don't know what created the success, and then when it goes to **** again you have to mix it up even more. It's not like we didn't have something that was working... we weren't going to play .800 all year. By going back to the DD/Patch paradigm MT has essentially told the team that he trusts DD more than any other player. DD is his default plan. DD as a 3rd line centre was successful ... why change that? This is the issue so many of us have with DD and MT, it makes no sense. He's not a #1 C. Even if he's getting more points at #3 than the #1 C .... he's still not a #1 C. He cannot handle the matchup and they key on Patches. With Flash, he excelled because the distribution was equal on that line. With DD/Patches you may as well use 3 D on that line.
 

Nynja*

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Mathletic said:
yeah I guess no other team in the NHL changed their lines during that time.
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Coaches shuffle lines during losing streaks, sure. I've never heard of a coach completely shuffle the lines after going 3-0-1 because of an injury. He put DSP in that spot, and they were still winning. Then DSP got hurt midway against Columbus (presumably) and MT shuffled everything. For whatever reason, between the first and second period, DSP got demoted to the fourth line. Either because he got injured but could play through it in a reduced role or who knows what, but at that point MT shuffled 3 of 4 lines, and thats when everything went down the toilet.

No coaches shuffle all the lines when they've gotten points in 4 of 4 games since key injuries. If the injuries happen while they were already losing, then they shuffle the lines. If theyre NOT losing, they try to fill in the spot with players that have been sitting out, or tinker with ONE line. They dont completely shuffle three full lines.
 

Nynja*

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Mathletic said:
I posted line changes to show that Habs are among those that shuffle their lines the least in the NHL. You guys should watch some Chicago games.
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So you're using the lineup that hadnt really changed at all through the first 25 games and saying "see, this season we change our lineups the least". How about the last 11 games, where pretty much every game has been a new lineup?
 
Mathletic

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Nynja said:
So you're using the lineup that hadnt really changed at all through the first 25 games and saying "see, this season we change our lineups the least". How about the last 11 games, where pretty much every game has been a new lineup?
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Gallagher went out, the lineup had to change.
 

Daniels45

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habfaninvictoria said:
This literally makes no sense. Your solution is to mix-it-up and hope that hard work pays off. By that logic, there is equal, or perhaps better than equal chance that not mixing it up, hoping and hard work will pay off. If you mix-it-up and it works then is the result fluke or good coaching? If you don't, is the result fluke or good coaching? Is it all fluke?

The problem is that if you mix it up and it works for one or two games, you don't know what created the success, and then when it goes to **** again you have to mix it up even more. It's not like we didn't have something that was working... we weren't going to play .800 all year. By going back to the DD/Patch paradigm MT has essentially told the team that he trusts DD more than any other player. DD is his default plan. DD as a 3rd line centre was successful ... why change that? This is the issue so many of us have with DD and MT, it makes no sense. He's not a #1 C. Even if he's getting more points at #3 than the #1 C .... he's still not a #1 C. He cannot handle the matchup and they key on Patches. With Flash, he excelled because the distribution was equal on that line. With DD/Patches you may as well use 3 D on that line.
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DD was placed on the first line in the hope that it would reignite Patches. They have a history together. Have had lots of success in the AHL and the NHL over the years. Its not because MT thinks DD is a first line center LOL We DONT have a first line center YET. All our centers are 2nd and lower. AG isnt rdy yet and he may never be.

When I line goes cold over a period of time and you badly need scoring a coaches patience is not unlimited. He needs to win. He needs to get that line scoring again so all he has at his disposal other than wait it out is to try other players in the hopes a spark will ignite. Thats how it works most of the time on every team. Why MT gets nailed for it is a mystery to me
 
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Mathletic

Mathletic

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Kirk Muller said:
Depends what is considered a lineup change

One change, one pp, the starting lines, one shift
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Time spent by 3 players together on the ice. Each by situation. Meaning Habs top players stayed with the same linemates as much as any other team in the league.
 

Nynja*

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Mathletic said:
Gallagher went out, the lineup had to change.
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So DSP went up in his spot, and did fine. He tinkered with the fourth line to fill the first line, and he was fine there. Then the game against Columbus the first period lines are:
Patch/Plek/DSP
Eller/Chuck/Ghetto
Flash/DD/Weise
Byron/Flynn/Thomas

Then after the first period, DSP either gets hurt, or steps on Therriens dog, and the lineups become:
Patch/Davey/Weise
Eller/Chuck/Ghetto
Flash/Plek/Byron
DSP/Flynn/Thomas


If DSP was slightly injured but could play through in a reduced role, why didnt MT just put Byron on the top line in his place? A couple games later he ultimately put Byron on the top line...so dont tell us "MT didnt fell Byron is top line worthy". Plek and Patch were ABOVE PPG pace the previous 5 games, and that was despite having a new winger on their line. No reason to split them up, none.
 

Nynja*

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Daniels45 said:
DD was placed on the first line in the hope that it would reignite Patches. They have a history together. Have had lots of success in the AHL and the NHL over the years. Its not because MT thinks DD is a first line center LOL We DONT have a first line center YET. All our centers are 2nd and lower. AG isnt rdy yet and he may never be.
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1-They have a history of playing together, sure. They dont have a history of being successful together, thats a false narrative. Patch produces WORSE with Davey in a sheltered role than he does with Plek in a two-way role. Go find my post if you want the numbers, I'm not finding it, but I can assure you its there.

2-How is AG going to get ready for that role if he's never put in that role? His first game he constantly got sent out against Patrice ****ing Bergeron, with last change. Coaching with an agenda if you ask me. The next game he constantly saw Datsyuk (which is more understandable as they were on the road). Then, after not being stellar against two of the best shutdown C in the game today, he got taken off #1C.
 
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ak90210

ak90210

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If the stories from the Ryan book are true it makes Therrien's weird "making him a better person" comments that much more ridiculous/hilarious.
 
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