Does Kucherov have a shot at becoming a top 5 winger of all time ?

[Regal]

I’d say Jagr is a clearly better player. He was a better goal scorer by more than Kucherov has been a better playmaker and his possession game at ES meant he had a bigger effect on GF%. From ‘95-‘01, Jagr’s average level of play was better than Kucherov’s from ‘17 to now. He was also better in his years before that than Kucherov was before he his his prime. Jagr only really had the one huge year in NY after this though, along with some good years, so if Kucherov has a couple more years like this, and ages well after, he might have a case.

 

[blundluntman]

So you have Howe, Jagr, Ovi, Hull, and Richard

Howe: He's not catching him so lets move on to the other guys.

Jagr: Had a higher peak and freakish longevity. Only way Kuch catches him is by staying at his peak another 2-3 years and plateauing at a very high level (maintaining his prime into his mid 30s and being a top 5 winger in his late 30s) with some more great playoff performances. Don't know if he has that in him but I guess it's not impossible. .

Ovi: Higher peak and an insane 2nd prime with the goals record in sight. Kucherov needs to do everything necessary to pass Jagr basically.

Hull: Higher peak but a shorter career. See the two above, maybe not to the same degree but yeah.

Richard: Isnane playoff resume, a shitload of 1st and 2nd AST finishes and aged very well in his older years. Kucherov has a better peak IMO so as long as he ages really well and can put together some more elite playoff runs, he'll be in the conversation.

So he does have a shot, but nothing is certain and age affects certain players more than others. I think his game will age really well but who knows.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Kind of interesting that in the last thirty years all the best wingers are non-Canadian. It seems like Canada really stopped producing wingers and started putting every talented player at center in a way not seen in prior generations. Where is the next Richard, Howe, Hull, LaFleur?

 

[The Macho King]

So you have Howe, Jagr, Ovi, Hull, and Richard

Howe: He's not catching him so lets move on to the other guys.

Jagr: Had a higher peak and freakish longevity. Only way Kuch catches him is by staying at his peak another 2-3 years and plateauing at a very high level (maintaining his prime into his mid 30s and being a top 5 winger in his late 30s) with some more great playoff performances. Don't know if he has that in him but I guess it's not impossible. .

Just want to point out that - as a playoff performer - Kucherov already laps the f*** out of Jagr. Jagr basically gets an "incomplete" for playoffs - didn't have a ton of great opportunities in his prime due to a shit team around him but he certainly doesn't have any runs where you would call it a positive to his resume.

 

[Bob and 200 others]

 

[Regal]

Just want to point out that - as a playoff performer - Kucherov already laps the f*** out of Jagr. Jagr basically gets an "incomplete" for playoffs - didn't have a ton of great opportunities in his prime due to a shit team around him but he certainly doesn't have any runs where you would call it a positive to his resume.

Jagr is tied with Crosby with 201 playoff points (only 80s Oilers have more), and from age 19-35 he had 168 points in 145 games and a plus 36 (3rd in points over that time frame to Sakic and Forsberg and only Gretzky and Lemieux had a better PPG with over 50 games). Not having a signature run doesn’t mean he wasn’t a great playoff performer.

That period is pretty similar to what Kucherov has done since his age 21 season: 159PTS in 140GP. And the GPG in the playoffs over Jagr’s period is 2.67, while over Kucherov’s time it’s 2.92. Granted, more games in higher scoring seasons and fewer in lower scoring ones can skew things, so I wouldn’t just use that number to adjust things, but the difference is big enough where I don’t see what makes Kucherov’s numbers more impressive other than he did it in longer runs.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

top 10

 

[KevinFinnerty]

great point on Jagr's playoffs. Over PPG in playoffs

 

[wetcoast]

Now, that Kucherov has the NHL record for points in a season by a winger, he enters the conversation of being a top 10 or even top 5 winger of all time.

With his regular season accolades and impeccable play off performances, where do you see him by the end of his career ?

Probably 5 to 10 all time without looking.Howe, Bobby Hull, Ovi, Jagr and Richard are ahead and Kuch is probably in the mix with some others like Lafleur.

Is Kuch ahead of Lafleur at this point?

I don't think he is and doubt that he can change that.

 

[wetcoast]

Maybe, but it'll take a bunch. Everything Kucherov can did, Lafleur did it better. It'll be interesting

Maybe hard to say as the 70s had a great disparity between the best teams and the weaker ones.

One thing that hurts Lafleur is his resume outside of his 6 year peak with that dynasty Habs team.

Some people seem to overlook that when ranking him all time IMO.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Top 10

 

[Ben White]

Kind of interesting that in the last thirty years all the best wingers are non-Canadian. It seems like Canada really stopped producing wingers and started putting every talented player at center in a way not seen in prior generations. Where is the next Richard, Howe, Hull, LaFleur?

This. The same way Soviet put all the big talents at wing, and that culture has somewhat carried over to Russia. It makes sense that most of the greatest wingers in history are Russian.

 

[PhilJets]

VS...... the REST

 

[bobholly39]

So you have Howe, Jagr, Ovi, Hull, and Richard

Howe: He's not catching him so lets move on to the other guys.

Jagr: Had a higher peak and freakish longevity. Only way Kuch catches him is by staying at his peak another 2-3 years and plateauing at a very high level (maintaining his prime into his mid 30s and being a top 5 winger in his late 30s) with some more great playoff performances. Don't know if he has that in him but I guess it's not impossible. .

Ovi: Higher peak and an insane 2nd prime with the goals record in sight. Kucherov needs to do everything necessary to pass Jagr basically.

Hull: Higher peak but a shorter career. See the two above, maybe not to the same degree but yeah.

Richard: Isnane playoff resume, a shitload of 1st and 2nd AST finishes and aged very well in his older years. Kucherov has a better peak IMO so as long as he ages really well and can put together some more elite playoff runs, he'll be in the conversation.

So he does have a shot, but nothing is certain and age affects certain players more than others. I think his game will age really well but who knows.

Your paragraph about Jagr...

If Kucherov were to maintain his peak for 2-3 more years (ie repeat of this season) and then plateau to a respectable few more prime years with small decline...then yes - he absolutely reaches #5

But that seems a super high bar

I think the most likely scenario is this will be his best season ever, and he'll slowly decline into a steady prime few years to follow.

But if he has more "peak stuff" left in him, that's always hard to guess at. So let's see it first, as it could change things

 

[hamzarocks]

If kucherov wins ross/hart/lindsay this year and can win it again 1 more year hes a top 15 player ever and battling OV for best russian ever

Needs 1 more huge year where he beats mcdavid and everyone for all the awards.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I think Kuch may be better than Ovechkin. He's just so celebral and I see his game aging really well too. Ovechkin was too one-dimensional for most of his career.

He was pretty damn good at that dimension, though. Kucherov has awhile, if ever, until he passes Ovi career wise

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin is top 4 in hits during his career.

Top 10 in assists

#1 in goals.

So what is this "one dimension?" Which 2 of these 3 things aren't a dimension, or aspect of hockey?

 

[WarriorofTime]

PPG since 2018-19:
McDavid - 1.67
Kucherov - 1.50
Draisaitl - 1.43
MacKinnon - 1.43
Panarin - 1.28
Pastrnak - 1.25
Matthews - 1.24
Rantanen - 1.23
Marner - 1.22
Kaprizov - 1.18

 

[wetcoast]

Ovechkin is top 4 in hits during his career.

Top 10 in assists

#1 in goals.

So what is this "one dimension?" Which 2 of these 3 things aren't a dimension, or aspect of hockey?

The original quote was from most of his career.

In fact he had 5 straight seasons from age to 30 where he didn't break the 30 assist mark so the original poster was pretty spot on.

Since the start of that streak he is 50th in assists so that's what the orgianl poster was getting at.

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Kuch isn't catching Ovi BTW but the distortion of history is always mindboggling from the select few.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The original quote was from most of his career.

In fact he had 5 straight seasons from age to 30 where he didn't break the 30 assist mark so the original poster was pretty spot on.

Since the start of that streak he is 50th in assists so that's what the orgianl poster was getting at.

63rd all time in nhl assists.

 

[wetcoast]

63rd all time in nhl assists.

Once again this was the original quote here and obviously that poster was talking about after the end of his peak (prime) so after the 11-12 season.

Ovechkin was too one-dimensional for most of his career.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Once again this was the original quote here and obviously that poster was talking about after the end of his peak (prime) so after the 11-12 season.

This is about an all time ranking.

 

[wetcoast]

This is about an all time ranking.

Yes I know that but the original points still stands Ovi has been somewhat one dimensional for the most part of his career after the age of 26 which helps his goal totals but hurts his case as an overall player right?

I say all of that with the better overall player, offensively in Kuch not being able to pass him IMO.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yes I know that but the original points still stands Ovi has been somewhat one dimensional for the most part of his career

No, it doesn't. He's been quite physical his entire career (in addition to being an excellent passer).

This idea of pretending shit didn't happen has a very selective application around here. When was the last time you pretended something Crosby achieved could be simply discarded? Not exactly going out on a limb by saying never.

 

[wetcoast]

No, it doesn't. He's been quite physical his entire career (in addition to being an excellent passer).

No he simply hasn't been an excellent passer since the 11-12 season when compared to his contemporaries as outlined above but people can click on here and see how he stacks up with assists since the 11-12 season.

He is 10th in games played in the top 50 assist getters and 50th on that list no doubt with more PP TOI than anyone else on that list.

This idea of pretending shit didn't happen has a very selective application around here. When was the last time you pretended something Crosby achieved could be simply discarded? Not exactly going out on a limb by saying never.

This is a thread on wingers but once again you have to bring a center into this .....really?