Does Crosby have the best international resume ever?

[Nadal On Clay]

If he’s not at the top, who is? Whether it is for Canada or any other country.

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

I created an excel file of all best on best skater stats. I'll post it when the tables start working here again.

But it's Gretzky. Most golds. Second most games played. Second most goals.Most assists. Most points.

If you open it up to non best on best, the entire top 10 will be 9 Soviets and Gretzky.

 

[Overrated]

Makarov

 

[MadLuke]

For Canadian player I imagine it would be Gretzky with a margin, Orr and Mario did not play as much during his prime in them, Howe obviously was in a era with very limited opportunity.

Some none Canadian could have had career that compete quite the well, Soviet, Swede, Finns, etc...
Crosby always made the playoff is career, not much presence to the worlds.

Sundin played a lot, Selanne played a lot on intl hockey at high levels as well.

Selanne
Most points at the Olympics
Most goals at the Olympics for someone born after 1932

World:

Ice Hockey World Championships ‑ All-Time Points Leaders

Hockey players who hold the all-time record for the most points at Ice Hockey World Championships tournaments.

www.quanthockey.com

The Mikhailov, Kharlamov, Petrov... quite the resume, I would imagine the best intl resume ever would be a soviet ? Must be.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I created an excel file of all best on best skater stats. I'll post it when the tables start working here again.

But it's Gretzky. Most golds. Second most games played. Second most goals.Most assists. Most points.

If you open it up to non best on best, the entire top 10 will be 9 Soviets and Gretzky.

I’d be really interested to see that table. Does it include their record as a member of their national team in best on best tourneys (OG/CC/WCup)?

 

[jigglysquishy]

I’d be really interested to see that table. Does it include their record as a member of their national team in best on best tourneys (OG/CC/WCup)?

I have complete records of skaters who scored at least 10 points across their best on best careers. It's all done manually since it's not housed in any consolidated place.

You can't copy paste excel tables here any more. But hopefully the website update will fix that formatting issue soon.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I have complete records of skaters who scored at least 10 points across their best on best careers. It's all done manually since it's not housed in any consolidated place.

You can't copy paste excel tables here any more. But hopefully the website update will fix that formatting issue soon.

The best workaround I've found so far is (for smaller tables) use the Windows snipping tool to take a screenshot. Or copy it into notepad and paste it as text (but the alignment will be off).

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky definitely has better individual performances than Crosby. Indisputably so.

But if we take into account win/loss success, maybe Crosby has a case? I saw on the broadcast last night that Crosby is 25-0 in his last 25 games for Team Canada. Hard to beat being undefeated?

 

[MadLuke]

Crosby Canada era could have been the most Canada dominated intl hockey ever ?, but they did not face the soviet level of competition, 2005 was a lock-out loaded junior team those tend to do very well.

Gretzky won the 1984, 1987, 1991 canada cup, is that it ?

lost the single WJC he went leading the tourney as a really young player.
Lost that Bossy-Trottier-Lafleur 1981 Canada cup and the 1982 world when he was not busy winning the cup in the summer yet.

96-98 out of his prime lost.

It feel a bit strange to talk about hockey player (skater as well) loosing-winning a tourney or games, specially facing the soviet.

Crosby won wjc, world cup, world champ, 2 olympics without "loosing" any intl tourney since the 2004 WJC, without adjusting for the competition he could have an argument in that regard.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Adding another best on best mvp will do wonders for his legacy

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Feels like there has to be a few players who did better than 10 points in 13 Olympic hockey games.

 

[MadLuke]

What make the conversation a bit strange is the title versus the actual tweet (most people like me did not read), once we see the title is hard to get out of our minds that he was not talking just about Canadians intl resume.

 

[jigglysquishy]

What make the conversation a bit strange is the title versus the actual tweet (most people like me did not read), once we see the title is hard to get out of our minds that he was not talking just about Canadians intl resume.

If it's complete international, it's gotta be Makarov.

Most golds (11), most points at senior level. Most points of any Russian in best on best (5th amongst all players).

I do still maintain it's Gretzky for best on best only.

 

[MadLuke]

By the end of last night game, one thought I had was how strange to have put the C on Lindros shirt in 1998 even if for the younger me it did not felt that strange at the time. Not having any notion of Lindros being young and overrating Gretzky decline because of how high of a bar he did set, I now know how it felt for the older Canadian of the time.

In February 1998, Gretzky:

-Just finished 4th in points the previous season,
-was in the middle of season where he would finish third in points,
- just had one of the solid playoff run of that era in the spring of 1997, 10 goals-20 points +5, in 15 games, reaching the conference final.

Lindros was not playing at a higher level nor had more success than say McDavid, they both just lost the cup final the year before.

Crosby is 37 exactly like Gretzky was at Nagano. Lindros is much younger (24) than McDavid is (28)

What a useless distraction it would have been to not give Crosby the C.

Only difference that Lindros had way more senior team Canada experience on the biggest stage (1992 Olympics, 1991 world cup, 1996 world cup)

 

[Staniowski]

By the end of last night game, one thought I had was how strange to have put the C on Lindros shirt in 1998 even if to the younger me at the time, did not felt that strange to me, not having any notion of Lindros being young, I now know how it felt for the older Canadian of the time.

In February 1998, Gretyzky:

-Just finished 4th in points the previous season,
-was in the middle of season where he would finish third in points,
- just had one of the solid playoff run of that era 1997, 10 goals-20 points +5, in 15 games, reaching the conference final.

Lindros was not playing at a higher level nor had more success than say McDavid, they both just lost the cup final the year before.

Crosby is 37 exactly like Gretzky was at Nagano. Lindros is much younger (24) than McDavid is (28)

What a useless distraction it would have been to not give Crosby the C.

Only difference that Lindros had way more senior team Canada experience on the biggest stage (1992 Olympics, 1991 world cup, 1996 world cup)

I don't think it matters that much who wears the C, but Crosby is more important to the current Team Canada than Gretzky was in '98. But it could have been other guys too, like Bourque or Sakic.

 

[Staniowski]

Makarov

Makarov was the best player overall of the three Canada Cups of the 1980s combined. The most consistently excellent player.

Gretzky was a little underwhelming in both '81 and '84, although he wasn't 100% healthy in either. Excellent in '87.

Fetisov missed the '84 tournament - there's a good chance they would've won in '84 if he were playing.

Bossy and Langway were both excellent in both '81 and '84, and obviously Lemieux in '87.

Krutov very good in all three, a bit behind Makarov though.

Perreault in '81 before the injury.

Khomutov was coming on in '87, and became a force around that time.

Coffey, Bourque, Kasatonov. Bourque was a bit underwhelming overall, but very good.

 

[Staniowski]

I don't know if Crosby is the best, but he's been excellent. He always shows up, and his great hockey sense and versatility shines through.

 

[MadLuke]

I don't think it matters that much who wears the C

Thus the power of not creating any distraction when choosing it.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

2 olympic golds +Gold OT winner
World Cup
IIHF worlds Gold

World cup mvp,
World cup top scorer
World championship top scorer
World championship top goal scorer
World championship best forward

Pretty extensive

 

[daver]

Feels like there has to be a few players who did better than 10 points in 13 Olympic hockey games.

How about Team Canada in 2014? Feels like there has to be a few teams that did better than score 17 goals in 6 games and only 2 goals a game in the playoffs and yet that was arguably the most dominant Olympic Gold medalist of all-time with Crosby being the captain and centrepiece. He was Canada's best player over the last two games. The strategy was all about puck possession and it was Crosby who set the tone for team as Captain.

You can say the same about the 2016 Pens; one of the most dominant Cup winners by playing a puck possession game with Crosby being the centrepiece.

As for the OP, Team Canada has been undefeated under his watch; what more could you ask for? He should be recognized as one of the sport's all-time great "winners".

 

[Sampe from the 2000s]

I created an excel file of all best on best skater stats. I'll post it when the tables start working here again.

But it's Gretzky. Most golds. Second most games played. Second most goals.Most assists. Most points.

If you open it up to non best on best, the entire top 10 will be 9 Soviets and Gretzky.

I posted a similar list here back in 2009, based best-on-best *international* tournaments (only best-on-best games between national teams) between 1972 and 2006. I also happened to use 10 points as the cut, resulting in a top 101 all-time list. Gonna be interesting to see how things have changed. I do know that Selänne has now overtaken Mats Sundin as the second best producer in best-on-best tournament history. And with his 3 points against Sweden, Crosby now has a better point-per-game average than both Koivu and Selänne. Still needs to slightly pick up his pace to overtake Sundin. But yes, Gretzky was in a class of his own in 2009 and I believe he still is.

This is how things looked after the 2006 Olympics (sorry for the messy format code that was based on the old boards):

All Time Top Scorers In Best-On-Best Tournaments

[table="head;title=list"]Rank|Player|Pos.|Nationality|Career|Tournaments|GP|G|A|Pts|Pim

1|Wayne Gretzky|C|CAN|1981-1998|6|45|20|48|68|12

2|Mats Sundin|C|SWE|1991-2006|6|30|18|20|38|38

3|Teemu Selänne|RW|FIN|1991-2006|6|33|18|17|35|20

4|Sergei Makarov|RW|SOV|1981-1987|3|22|16|15|31|12

5|Brett Hull|RW|USA|1991-2004|5|27|14|17|31|12

6|Mike Modano|C|USA|1991-2006|6|36|8|23|31|16

7|Paul Coffey|D|CAN|1984-1996|4|33|6|25|31|24

8|Vladimir Krutov|LW|SOV|1981-1987|3|22|14|16|30|18

9|Mario Lemieux|C|CAN|1987-2004|3|20|14|15|29|10

10|Saku Koivu|C|FIN|1996-2006|4|24|9|20|29|22

11|Daniel Alfredsson|RW|SWE|1996-2006|5|24|8|18|26|12

12|Mark Messier|C|CAN|1984-1996|4|32|6|20|26|36

13|Jere Lehtinen|LW/RW|FIN|1996-2006|5|28|11|14|25|6

14|Joe Sakic|C|CAN|1996-2006|5|30|12|11|23|12

15|Alexei Kasatonov|D|SOV|1981-1991|4|27|3|19|22|20

16|Jaromir Jagr|RW|CSK/CZE|1991-2006|6|31|8|13|21|16

17|Mike Bossy|RW|CAN|1981-1984|2|15|13|7|20|4

18|Phil Esposito|C|CAN|1972-1976|2|15|11|9|20|15

19|Sergei Fedorov|C|SOV/RUS|1991-2002|4|22|8|12|20|20

20|Nicklas Lidström|D|SWE|1991-2006|6|30|8|12|20|10

21|Ray Bourque|D|CAN|1981-1998|4|30|4|16|20|28

22|Alexander Yakushev|LW|SOV|1972-1974|2|15|12|7|19|6

23|Gilbert Perreault|C|CAN|1972-1981|3|13|8|11|19|4

24|Ville Peltonen|LW|FIN|1996-2006|4|24|8|11|19|14

25|Peter Forsberg|C|SWE|1996-2006|4|18|3|16|19|12

26|Brian Leetch|D|USA|1991-2004|5|29|2|17|19|12

27|John LeClair|LW|USA|1996-2002|3|17|12|6|18|10

28|Alexander Maltsev|C/RW|SOV|1972-1981|4|25|8|10|18|6

29|Igor Larionov|C|SOV/RUS|1981-2002|5|32|6|12|18|26

30|Bobby Hull|LW|CAN|1974-1976|2|15|12|5|17|2

31|Eric Lindros|C|CAN|1991-2002|4|28|9|8|17|28

32|Theoren Fleury|RW|CAN|1991-2002|4|27|6|11|17|28

33|Alexei Yashin|C|RUS|1996-2006|5|29|6|11|17|14

34|Chris Chelios|D|USA|1984-2006|8|47|4|13|17|32

35|Guy Lafleur|RW|CAN|1976-1981|2|14|3|14|17|12

36|Kent Nilsson|C|SWE|1981-1987|3|19|3|14|17|8

37|Viacheslav Fetisov|D|SOV/RUS|1981-1996|3|20|3|14|17|31

38|Keith Tkachuk|LW|USA|1996-2006|5|26|12|4|16|83

39|Alexei Kovalev|RW|RUS|1996-2006|4|23|11|5|16|20

40|Michel Goulet|LW|CAN|1984-1987|2|16|7|9|16|0

41|Bryan Trottier|C|CAN/USA|1981-1984|2|13|5|11|16|14

42|Doug Weight|C|USA|1996-2006|5|28|4|12|16|26

43|Denis Potvin|D|CAN|1976-1981|2|14|3|13|16|28

44|Martin Rucinsky|LW|CSK/CZE|1991-2006|6|29|5|10|15|22

45|Olli Jokinen|C|FIN|2002-2006|3|18|10|4|14|6

46|Bill Guerin|RW|USA|1996-2006|5|28|7|7|14|31

47|Vladimir Vikulov|RW|SOV|1972-1976|3|14|6|8|14|0

48|Valeri Kharlamov|LW|SOV|1972-1974|2|15|5|9|14|20

49|Vladimir Petrov|C|SOV|1972-1974|2|15|4|10|14|14

50|Martin Straka|C|CZE|1996-2006|4|20|4|10|14|6

51|Paul Henderson|RW|CAN|1972-1974|2|15|9|4|13|4

52|Pat LaFontaine|C|USA|1987-1998|4|20|9|4|13|4

53|Kimmo Timonen|D|FIN|1996-2006|5|24|2|11|13|8

54|Pavel Bure|RW|RUS|1998-2002|2|12|11|1|12|10

55|Sergei Svetlov|RW|SOV|1984-1987|2|12|7|5|12|0

56|Joe Mullen|RW|USA|1984-1991|3|18|6|6|12|2

57|Brent Sutter|C|CAN|1984-1991|3|25|6|6|12|22

58|Sergei Kapustin|LW|SOV|1974-1981|3|16|5|7|12|12

59|Jeremy Roenick|C|USA|1991-2002|3|18|5|7|12|12

60|Vladimir Shadrin|C|SOV|1972-1974|2|16|4|8|12|11

61|Mats Näslund|LW|SWE|1984-1991|3|20|4|8|12|8

62|Tony Amonte|RW|USA|1996-2004|4|22|4|8|12|10

63|Pavel Datsyuk|C|RUS|2002-2006|3|18|3|9|12|10

64|Ed Olczyk|C|USA|1984-1991|3|19|2|10|12|12

65|Anders Hedberg|RW|SWE|1976-1981|2|10|7|4|11|4

66|Viktor Zhluktov|C|SOV|1976-1981|2|12|7|4|11|4

67|Boris Mikhailov|RW|SOV|1972-1974|2|15|7|4|11|9

68|Thomas Steen|C|SWE|1981-1991|3|17|7|4|11|17

69|Brendan Shanahan|LW|CAN|1991-2002|4|27|7|4|11|14

70|Steve Larmer|RW|CAN|1991|1|8|6|5|11|4

71|Marian Hossa|RW|SVK|2004-2006|2|10|6|5|11|6

72|Sergei Shepelev|C|SOV|1981-1984|2|11|6|5|11|4

73|Fredrik Modin|LW|SWE|2004-2006|2|12|6|5|11|8

74|Milan Novy|C|CSK|1976-1981|2|13|6|5|11|9

75|Dale Hawerchuk|C|CAN|1987-1991|2|17|6|5|11|0

76|Marcel Dionne|C|CAN|1972-1981|3|13|5|6|11|8

77|Rick Middleton|RW|CAN|1981-1984|2|14|5|6|11|0

78|Anatoli Semenov|C|SOV|1984-1987|2|15|5|6|11|4

79|Steve Yzerman|C|CAN|1984-2002|4|22|5|6|11|12

80|Jari Kurri|C/RW|FIN|1981-1998|5|26|5|6|11|13

81|Valeri Vasiliev|D|SOV|1972-1981|4|23|4|7|11|23

82|Teppo Numminen|D|FIN|1987-2006|7|36|4|7|11|8

83|Sergei Gonchar|D|RUS|1996-2006|5|28|3|8|11|18

84|Valeri Kamensky|LW|SOV/RUS|1987-1998|2|15|7|3|10|6

85|Jarome Iginla|RW|CAN|2002-2006|3|18|7|3|10|6

86|Andrei Kovalenko|RW|SOV/RUS|1991-2004|4|18|7|3|10|34

87|Håkan Loob|RW|SWE|1984|1|8|6|4|10|2

88|Martin Havlat|RW|CZE|2002-2004|2|9|6|4|10|29

89|Vaclav Prospal|LW/C|CZE|2004-2006|2|12|5|5|10|2

90|Tomas Holmström|LW|SWE|1996-2006|4|16|5|5|10|20

91|Niklas Sundström|LW|SWE|1996-2002|3|12|4|6|10|2

92|Matti Hagman|C|FIN|1976-1987|3|15|4|6|10|10

93|Christian Ruuttu|C|FIN|1987-1996|3|15|4|6|10|16

94|Alexander Gusev|D|SOV|1972-1976|3|19|4|6|10|4

95|Mark Johnson|C|USA|1981-1987|3|17|3|7|10|2

96|Vincent Lecavalier|C|CAN|2004-2006|2|12|2|8|10|24

97|Mark Howe|D|CAN/USA|1974-1981|2|13|2|8|10|6

98|Mikael Andersson|LW/RW|SWE|1987-1998|4|19|2|8|10|4

99|Phil Housley|D|USA|1984-2002|4|18|1|9|10|4

100|Robert Lang|C|CZE|1996-2006|4|21|1|9|10|8

101|Gary Suter|D|USA|1987-2002|5|29|1|9|10|23

[/table]​

 

[Voight]

By the end of last night game, one thought I had was how strange to have put the C on Lindros shirt in 1998 even if for the younger me it did not felt that strange at the time. Not having any notion of Lindros being young and overrating Gretzky decline because of how high of a bar he did set, I now know how it felt for the older Canadian of the time.

In February 1998, Gretzky:

-Just finished 4th in points the previous season,
-was in the middle of season where he would finish third in points,
- just had one of the solid playoff run of that era in the spring of 1997, 10 goals-20 points +5, in 15 games, reaching the conference final.

Lindros was not playing at a higher level nor had more success than say McDavid, they both just lost the cup final the year before.

Crosby is 37 exactly like Gretzky was at Nagano. Lindros is much younger (24) than McDavid is (28)

What a useless distraction it would have been to not give Crosby the C.

Only difference that Lindros had way more senior team Canada experience on the biggest stage (1992 Olympics, 1991 world cup, 1996 world cup)

Lindros got the C solely because his club GM was also the GM of Team Canada at the time.

If they wanted to do some kind of passing of the torch thing, Sakic would've been the much better option and he was 27 at the time and had lead his team to a championship. Even Yzerman, who had captained his team for a decade at that point and at 32 still had lots to give.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Nothing inflates a player more than tacking on Team Canada olympic wins. Especially to lift them over historical players who weren't lucky enough to play in the 16 year window where Canada used NHL players.

Will he have gold in the biggest variety of international tournaments? Yes
Was he the greatest player in Team Canada history? Easy no

 

[wetcoast]

What make the conversation a bit strange is the title versus the actual tweet (most people like me did not read), once we see the title is hard to get out of our minds that he was not talking just about Canadians intl resume.

It's strange but also a bit ironic that the thread is here in the HOH section where many take quotes or old newspapers articles as articles of faith.

The Scotty Bowman top 100 Canadians of all time ranking also comes to mind.

Maybe Crosby is a contender or maybe he isn't but it's going to be really difficult to evaluate between different eras with vastly different formats and tournaments.

One interesting point for future discussions might be his tournament here compared to McDavid but all of this has to play out first.

Nothing inflates a player more than tacking on Team Canada olympic wins. Especially to lift them over historical players who weren't lucky enough to play in the 16 year window where Canada used NHL players.

Will he have gold in the biggest variety of international tournaments? Yes
Was he the greatest player in Team Canada history? Easy no

I dunno SC's seem too as well right?

And this happens in all sports where individuals/team performances often get intermingled and it's probably unavoidable.

 

[seventieslord]

I created an excel file of all best on best skater stats. I'll post it when the tables start working here again.

But it's Gretzky. Most golds. Second most games played. Second most goals.Most assists. Most points.

If you open it up to non best on best, the entire top 10 will be 9 Soviets and Gretzky.

I have a gigantic international stats spreadsheet that goes all the way back to the start of international competition and includes every relevant tournament up to 2017. If I could find it, I'm sure it would confirm what you are saying.