Does anyone miss hockey analysis before analytics?

Subjectivity isn't the same as feel. All stats require a subject who collects them. Of course, some witnesses are suspect. And nobody is shrugging anything. My point was that stats aren't objective, meaning without subjective points of view. Quit deliberately misunderstanding my point.
A lot of hockey stats are subjective in comparison to baseball which is the godfather of sports analytics. Outside of ruling a hit vs error pretty much everyone can agree on a hit.

Too many moving variables for the nhl.
Baseball, each event begins with a pitches. And so much data is collected at that time. Any men on base, r the count, pitchers pitch count, handed was of hitter and pitcher, score, time through the lineup, etc.
 
I’m not a big analytics guy, but at the very least it provides analysts some type of quantifiable basis for what they are saying.

It blows my mind that people can listen to hours of sports talk every day when 99% of it is just forcing “stories” and repeating cliches over and over again.

“The Point” is the only show I can listen to on NHL Network Radio because it actually has a host (Boomer Gordon) that seems to prep his points and arguments with stats. Every other personality is just some loudmouth rattling off generalizations. Makes it feel like a complete waste of time to listen to.
 
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I am not deliberately misunderstanding your point of view my response was largely toward the other gentleman. I included you because you also responded to my post.

There are different levels of subjectivity and data collection is different than interpretation. A person using their own subjective feel to say how good a team is performing is different than someone counting shots. For shots either it hit the goalie, hit the net, or it didn't. Can mistakes be made? Sure, but lets not pretend like that's the same as someone watching the game and then just declaring a player played well based off nothing other than their own emotions or opinions. Thats the argument I was making against the other poster who indicated that experts or people with experience are grounded and know when a team is good or bad better than analytics can identify.

I included you because you chimed in with him because you didn't like the analogy. Using what you have said everything is subjective. DNA? Well a human had to collect it, transport it, test it, and then interpret the data, so it is subjective too. Ballistics? Still reliant on an expert saying they match. There is almost nothing I can think of in the world that doesn't require some sort of human interaction where data can be manipulated.
Yep, that's the epistemology we live with. All objectivity is in a dialectical relationship with a subject. The point here is that there's little reason to think most fans are bad witnesses, judging by feels. It's a strawman, imo. What makes DNA objective is that any subject who collects and reads the data should come to the same result. It still requires a subject. My issue is twofold, the first we dealt with, the limitations of statistics for predicting single elements within a sample, the second assuming eye-test folks are idiots controlled by feels.
 
A lot of hockey stats are subjective in comparison to baseball which is the godfather of sports analytics. Outside of ruling a hit vs error pretty much everyone can agree on a hit.

Too many moving variables for the nhl.
Baseball, each event begins with a pitches. And so much data is collected at that time. Any men on base, r the count, pitchers pitch count, handed was of hitter and pitcher, score, time through the lineup, etc.

But the eyetest though, oh baby. Totally objective and unbiased.
 
Yep, that's the epistemology we live with. All objectivity is in a dialectical relationship with a subject. The point here is that there's little reason to think most fans are bad witnesses, judging by feels. It's a strawman, imo. What makes DNA objective is that any subject who collects and reads the data should come to the same result. It still requires a subject. My issue is twofold, the first we dealt with, the limitations of statistics for predicting single elements within a sample, the second assuming eye-test folks are idiots controlled by feels.
It's not calling people idiots to say they are, in general bad witnesses. It is just reality. The human brain changes our interpretation of events to fit with our world view and preconceived biases. That doesn't make people idiots just makes us bad at recalling past events with accuracy.
 
It's not calling people idiots to say they are, in general bad witnesses. It is just reality. The human brain changes our interpretation of events to fit with our world view and preconceived biases. That doesn't make people idiots just makes us bad at recalling past events with accuracy.
Now apply that to yourself, and figure out how your charity allows you to make that claim. You are, I assume, a person with a human brain.
 
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Regarding PDO, that's a bad application. Most good teams, on the year, are above 100. When people say it's unsustainable, they should be looking at teams with teams above 105 or so. Having said that, some teams sustain it.

I'd say anything above 103 is unsustainable and likely to drop below that level. In the last ten years 1 team has finished a season above that mark and it happened last season. So that's 1/308. In the last 3 seasons 5 teams were above 102, that's 5/95. 91.6% (87/95) of teams have fallen in the 98-102 range in the last three seasons.

To take it a little further 15 teams have had a season at 102 or above in the last ten seasons. 5% (15/308).
 
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No, because we're still hearing that analysis.

You can show somebody clear, simple analytics on a black and white issue and they'll still be like "well that's not what I think!"
 
I'd say anything above 103 is unsustainable and likely to drop below that level. In the last ten years 1 team has finished a season above that mark and it happened last season. So that's 1/308. In the last 3 seasons 5 teams were above 102, that's 5/95. 91.6% (87/95) of teams have fallen in the 98-102 range in the last three seasons.

To take it a little further 15 teams have had a season at 102 or above in the last ten seasons. 5% (15/308).
I might be wrong, but I believe the Islanders and Habs were above 104 for around a decade, going pretty far back. Different league, but great teams can do it.
 
Now apply that to yourself, and figure out how your charity allows you to make that claim. You are, I assume, a person with a human brain.
Is this one of those, "you critique society but you also exist in it" moments? Why are you so offended by me saying humans, in general, are bad witnesses? This has been studied many many times and it is a fact. You may have a background in statistics, but I have a background in human behaviour and investigation. The studies, the stats, and personal experience are all in agreement that humans make bad witnesses, whether or not you want to pretend that nobody can make the claim unless they themselves are somehow the perfect witness. Me personally not necessarily being the absolute perfect witness myself doesn't negate mountains of data on the issue.

I am gonna leave this where it is because clearly you have already decided I am the villain and it won't matter what I say going forward. You have already decided I am wrong. You can go insult someone else now.
 
Is this one of those, "you critique society but you also exist in it" moments? Why are you so offended by me saying humans, in general, are bad witnesses? This has been studied many many times and it is a fact. You may have a background in statistics, but I have a background in human behaviour and investigation. The studies, the stats, and personal experience are all in agreement that humans make bad witnesses, whether or not you want to pretend that nobody can make the claim unless they themselves are somehow the perfect witness. Me personally not necessarily being the absolute perfect witness myself doesn't negate mountains of data on the issue.

I am gonna leave this where it is because clearly you have already decided I am the villain and it won't matter what I say going forward. You have already decided I am wrong.
No, it's not that at all. It's an epistemic question. You and society are different kinds of entities, i.e., different in kind. In this case you are critiquing persons as being unreliable epistemic subjects. All the while, from the perspective of a person. I just don't see the need to assert the other side of the argument is imperfect. I'm trying to make your argument stronger. There's a better case to be made for statistics than that, but it's honest and even most anti-stat people would probably be cool with their value.
 
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I might be wrong, but I believe the Islanders and Habs were above 104 for around a decade, going pretty far back. Different league, but great teams can do it.

The 70's and 80's were a very different time. To give it context in today's league. Two teams are above 101 for the last ten seasons and that's at 101.08 and 101.02.
 
Considering hockey analysis prior to analytics was just heart/desire/want it more BS…no. There was no real analysis of hockey back then.
 
Seems like whenever a team wins a lot of games by large margins now instead of people being impressed they start yelling PDO!!!

I remember during the 11-12 season the Rangers and Bruins were neck and neck but the Bruins most of the season but at one point in the season Boston ended up destroying teams. I had an argument with someone on HF and he said that Boston winning games by larger margins meant they're less fluky than the Rangers because each close game is closer to a loss than a blowout. So the Rangers were more likely to benefit from a bounce here and there than the Bruins who would have to have a lot more go against them to lose a game they won 6-0. As much as I argued with him I still think that's a sound argument. Now the Rangers ended up with more points and went deeper in the playoffs. But I kind of miss the days teams weren't penalized by public opinion for winning in a dominant way. The new age way of thinking of this seems backwards. Anyone else feel this way?

Edit: Just to make it clear, the example of 11-12 was BEFORE analytics became as big of a thing today.
Margin of victory is a predictor for future success, and winning games by large margins makes you more likely to win future games than winning games by small margins.

People yelling "PDO" are doing "analytics", not analytics. PDO is actually a performance metric, massively dependent on the goaltender. So your PDO will be high with a good goalie, and low with a bad goalie. It's not a "luck" metric.

But obviously, there's the effect of "regression towards the mean" with any performance metric. For example, even if a team wins 5 games in a row 10-0, that doesn't mean that they're now going to win all their games by massive margins. But it still makes it more likely they'll win.

A high PDO, too, is a positive metric, since good finishing and good goaltending help you win more games.
 
To be honest, I mostly ignore the "advanced stats". Partly because I don't think they are "advanced" in any way or that they add anything for me as a fan. Partly because I don't want to spend the time pouring over new stats/definitions/spreadsheets for something I enjoy. The ability of these stats to predict much is.. meh. Mostly they tell us what we can already see just by watching.

I'm sure the teams themselves are collecting their own data and doing interesting things with it, but as a fan, it does nothing for me.
 
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Yeah, pretty much. Not of fan of how so many data nerds, who can't even tie a pair skates and would get embarrassed at local public skating, pump their chests out because they can read a spread sheet. That said, I strongly believe there is a place for advanced analytics but the diehard crowd seems to think it is the be-all-end-all.
 
To be honest, I mostly ignore the "advanced stats". Partly because I don't think they are "advanced" in any way or that they add anything for me as a fan. Partly because I don't want to spend the time pouring over new stats/definitions/spreadsheets for something I enjoy. The ability of these stats to predict much is.. meh. Mostly they tell us what we can already see just by watching.

I'm sure the teams themselves are collecting their own data and doing interesting things with it, but as a fan, it does nothing for me.
There are some issues with how they're used. For example, people think that getting a lot of expected goals is better than getting a lot of goals. But, there are teams who routinely get far more expected goals than goals. Their conversion rates are poor. As such, their expected goals shouldn't be weighed the same. It all comes down to goals in the end. If you only convert on 90% of your expected goals, that should be taken into account.

Also, it's worth noting that expected goals aren't even measured accurately currently. Right now, you get more expected goals than goals. So year after year, the amount of goals scored doesn't reach the amount of expected goals. This means that the calibration for the stat is off in the first place.

I really think that there should be some better ways of performing shot quality assessment than expected goals, which as a stat is as dubious as it gets, even if it has some predictive ability.
 

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