Do you view this team as real Stanley Cup Contender?

Blues real Stanley Cup Contender 2021-2022 season?


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    81

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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I guess Blues were overvalued before season started 2018-19. We were top 5 if I'm not mistaken, it might had been top3 favourite to win a Cup. :dunno:
You are mistaken.

This article has the Blues outside the top 9 betting favorites heading in to 2018/19

Outside the top 4 Western Conference betting favorites in this one.

This article actually has a full list of odds. It had us as the 13th best odds at +2500 just before the season started in October of 2018.

The Blues had +2000 odds heading into the playoffs in 2018/19

Tampa, Toronto and Winnipeg were all below the +1000 threshold and a bunch of teams were around +1200. We were valued well less than each of those groups. The Blues were a trendy Cup pick entering 2018/19 by the media. That was not reflected in betting lines.
 

Novacain

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Feb 24, 2012
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Debated doing a long post but that would take all my lunch break. So I’ll be brief: I don’t think you can win a cup with this defense unless your forwards are elite. I think our forwards are clearly good, but not “top 3 in the league” great either. Too much has to go perfectly for me to buy us as legitimate cup contenders, and the “anybody can win the cup!” Narrative people push isn’t based on reality when only 7 teams have won a cup in the last 12 years, and none of them were considered underdogs on talent at the time.
 

Ranksu

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You are mistaken.

This article has the Blues outside the top 9 betting favorites heading in to 2018/19

Outside the top 4 Western Conference betting favorites in this one.

This article actually has a full list of odds. It had us as the 13th best odds at +2500 just before the season started in October of 2018.

The Blues had +2000 odds heading into the playoffs in 2018/19

Tampa, Toronto and Winnipeg were all below the +1000 threshold and a bunch of teams were around +1200. We were valued well less than each of those groups. The Blues were a trendy Cup pick entering 2018/19 by the media. That was not reflected in betting lines.
True.

2018-19 NHL Preseason Odds | Hockey-Reference.com


I clearly remembed it wrong. We were 11th spot to win Stanley Cup before season started. After winning Cup we were 6th spot. But yeah my bad. I guess I mixed up years. Or somehowe remembered it wrong.

But yeah top 20 spot vs top 10. I guess there is difference which is considering of closer contender status and which isn't.

I view you need to be top5 on booker's odds to be Contender. Legit Stanley Cup Contender.

This is what polls is asking are we legit contender or not?
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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St. Louis Blues 2021-22 season preview: Playoff chances, projected points, roster rankings

The Athletics Blues season preview. It isn’t super cheery, so just a warning.
I love Dom's modeling and betting along with him is a good way to make money. But I routinely think that his analysis of his modeling is quite extreme. While most of his analysis here could be accurate, I think that most the written narrative is more of a worst-case-scenario than it is the most likely.

The most egregious example of this comes from his analysis on ROR who he appears to believe is washed as a Selke caliber player. After discussing his great offensive numbers last year, he digs in to possession stats to reach the conclusion that "what remains feels like a shade of his former self." That is resoundingly different than what my eye test told me and I think the lack of a competent LW on his line was the overwhelmingly biggest cause of that line's poor expected metrics. If ROR is suddenly a below average defensive center, then this article is 100% correct. His model has ROR as a 25 goal, 46 assist player who no longer provides top end defense. I will be stunned if that's how this season goes. I just don't see an 8 point offensive regression and similar defensive metrics now that he isn't being asked to drag around a 3rd liner all season.

All in all, he has forward group ranked 15th in the NHL with each individual line ranked as follows:
1st: 13th
2nd: 18th best
3rd: 6th best
4th: 8th best

I think that the 1st line is top 10 based on my view that ROR isn't facing major regression and we are going to have him consistently between two legit 1st line talents for the first time in at least 2 years. Even if we see the middling performance out of Schenn and Tarasenko that he expects and the 2nd line is slightly below average, I think that the offense is still top 10 overall if the 1st line is top 10. I have a hard time saying that a top 10 1st line, average 2nd line and incredible bottom 6 translates to simply an average offense.

It is hard to parse out his view of the defense. He has Krug/Parayko as our top pair and Scandella/Faulk as the 2nd pair. Based on that, he views the top pair as an average top pair and then the 2nd pair as near-league-worst because of expected regression from Faulk (agreed) and because Scandella "looked like he had returned to form in 2019-20 only to see a significant drop back to reality in 2020-21. He’s only as good as his partner, and that’s probably not worthy of a top-four role." I think that is extremely fair, but if Scandella/Faulk is the 2nd pair and turns out to be a disaster, you can bet your salary that Berube will revert back to Scandella/Parayko. I think it is reasonable to expect that Scandella can be serviceable if he is with a healthy Parayko. I'm not sure if our 3rd pair will be Mikkola/Walman like he suggests, but I'm confident that they won't remain together if they are the 2nd worst pairing in the league as he predicts. With Bortz and Perunovich in the organization, I think there is enough depth there to make an adequate 3rd pairing.

I don't think the pessimism is unwarranted, but I also think there is a lot of reason to believe that the expected regression his model puts on most our roster doesn't come to fruition. But if ROR, Schenn, Tarasenko, Faulk and Binner are all noticeably worse than last year then this team is for sure going to struggle.
 
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EL Bandito

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I said yes, but they are missing a #1 LHD. If they can acquire one without greatly affecting the forward group, I think they are right there.

I like Walman and Mikkola but they don't belong on a top pairing and having to use Scandella there is playing him above where he should be as well, which I see as a very solid #5 dman. He's probably a #4 on a number of teams still. Either he anchors your 3rd pairing or he'd be a logical salary move in a the trade for that 1st pairing d.
 

LogosBlue

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May 16, 2018
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We are a top 6 team this year. If Binner plays the way i think he will play, and our defense holds up injury wise, we will compete for the cup / make the conference finals at least.
 

ItsOnlytheRiver

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Mar 25, 2010
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True.

2018-19 NHL Preseason Odds | Hockey-Reference.com


I clearly remembed it wrong. We were 11th spot to win Stanley Cup before season started. After winning Cup we were 6th spot. But yeah my bad. I guess I mixed up years. Or somehowe remembered it wrong.

But yeah top 20 spot vs top 10. I guess there is difference which is considering of closer contender status and which isn't.

I view you need to be top5 on booker's odds to be Contender. Legit Stanley Cup Contender.

This is what polls is asking are we legit contender or not?
So if the criteria is just Vegas odds then why even make a poll? Sounds like you have your answer on the DraftKings website or wherever you go to place bets.
 
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Thallis

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Jan 23, 2010
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I love Dom's modeling and betting along with him is a good way to make money. But I routinely think that his analysis of his modeling is quite extreme. While most of his analysis here could be accurate, I think that most the written narrative is more of a worst-case-scenario than it is the most likely.

The most egregious example of this comes from his analysis on ROR who he appears to believe is washed as a Selke caliber player. After discussing his great offensive numbers last year, he digs in to possession stats to reach the conclusion that "what remains feels like a shade of his former self." That is resoundingly different than what my eye test told me and I think the lack of a competent LW on his line was the overwhelmingly biggest cause of that line's poor expected metrics. If ROR is suddenly a below average defensive center, then this article is 100% correct. His model has ROR as a 25 goal, 46 assist player who no longer provides top end defense. I will be stunned if that's how this season goes. I just don't see an 8 point offensive regression and similar defensive metrics now that he isn't being asked to drag around a 3rd liner all season.

I think the write up was a bit exaggerated compared to what the actual model said. It rates him as a borderline elite player instead of solidly elite, which matches his play from last season and isn't a particularly outlandish guess. It's possible that he bounces back, but I don't think we're going to see something that matches his 2019-2020 season, which the model rated as just .5 wins above its projection for this season. That's not really worst case scenario. There's a number of worse cases than what's projected there and I think the general assumption around here has leaned far more on the side of the best case scenarios in which we continue to get the best out of Faulk, Kyrou, and Perron while Tarasenko (who isn't traded or traded for quality talent), Schenn, Parayko, and Krug bounce back, and Thomas takes the next step.
 
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Ranksu

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So if the criteria is just Vegas odds then why even make a poll? Sounds like you have your answer on the DraftKings website or wherever you go to place bets.
It was open question for everyone.

I just gave point of view how booker's have evaluate where we are at. It's pretty legit when there is money involved who most likely will win a Cup or those booker's don't have job anymore. :laugh:

Blues won't be top of mix booker's odds and some left down if some Blues fans think it isn't fair. Those are pretty calculated views where teams are at.

But yes you can bet on Blues that we will win Cup this coming season. :sarcasm: if you think we are really legit Stanley Cup Contender or you just like to gamble and hope we have good luck.

I don't see any reasonable arguments why we should be legit Stanley Cup Contender. Forward group is fine and have depth, but d-group too much if's for my liking. But couple big moves and we would definitely be Contender status.
 
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Ranksu

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Have to transfer this post in here. Really well said about Krug and us being so called contender (pretender).

His contributions on the PP were elite three seasons ago and should remain strong for another few years (not six though). You're truly insulted that he'd be labeled for the second pair/as a specialist? Defensively he is a weak link, there's no way around it. Last year's Colorado series also happened. He was forced to play against top forwards and it was like two different sports were being played. He is a little guy. Now and going forward he's a PP specialist 4/5 for a contender or a 3 on an average team. He's a top pair guy on a non-playoff team.

If the Blues were a contender with him as a #3 which he is right now, would this thread exist?

Quote is taken from this Proposal: - Blues badly need a number 1 LHD.
 

Brian39

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Apr 24, 2014
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Have to transfer this post in here. Really well said about Krug and us being so called contender (pretender).



Quote is taken from this Proposal: - Blues badly need a number 1 LHD.
So was Boston not a contender in 2018/19 and 2019/20 or did he regress from a #2/3 tweener to a #4/5 tweener overnight? Krug was 2nd in ATOI for Boston in the playoffs in 2019 and 2020. They lost to the Cup champs each of those years. He was #2 and #3 in ATOI for Boston during the regular season in each of those years. They were 3rd and 1st in the league those seasons. I have a very, very difficult time saying that the Bruins were simply an average team those years, so I assume the argument is that his game fell off a cliff.

Can you articulate which of his skills have significantly deteriorated in the last 13 months? I'm very curious to know how he went from a 2/3 on a contender guy to a 4/5 on a contender guy.

Edit: Also framing him as an elite PP contributor 3 years ago is ludicrous. He led NHL D men in PP scoring in 2019/20. That's 1 season ago. He's played 51 NHL games since he was the league's top PP QB. The notion that his elite PP production is years back in the rearview mirror is objectively incorrect.
 
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BlueMed

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Jul 18, 2019
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Don't bother watching it. Its not an accurate or intelligent season preview for several reasons. First of all, save percentage and goals against average cannot be solely pinned on a goaltender. Binnington played well during the series against Colorado. The defense left him out to dry and to be honest, some of the goals that were scored by Colorado were absolute snipes. Also, these guys don't even know what injury Tarasenko was upset about. Wrist? Shoulder? They aren't really sure. And the Blues got lucky during the cup run?! And the guy on the right says that Binnginton is an unproven goaltender. Absolute trash video.
 

BlueMed

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Jul 18, 2019
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"The Blues are not going to make the playoffs. The Blues are a couple notches below Colorado and a notch below Minnesota, Winnipeg, and Dallas. Seattle will sneak into the playoffs instead as a wild card team" :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::help::help::help::help::help:
 

PocketNines

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So was Boston not a contender in 2018/19 and 2019/20 or did he regress from a #2/3 tweener to a #4/5 tweener overnight? Krug was 2nd in ATOI for Boston in the playoffs in 2019 and 2020. They lost to the Cup champs each of those years. He was #2 and #3 in ATOI for Boston during the regular season in each of those years. They were 3rd and 1st in the league those seasons. I have a very, very difficult time saying that the Bruins were simply an average team those years, so I assume the argument is that his game fell off a cliff.

Can you articulate which of his skills have significantly deteriorated in the last 13 months? I'm very curious to know how he went from a 2/3 on a contender guy to a 4/5 on a contender guy.

Edit: Also framing him as an elite PP contributor 3 years ago is ludicrous. He led NHL D men in PP scoring in 2019/20. That's 1 season ago. He's played 51 NHL games since he was the league's top PP QB. The notion that his elite PP production is years back in the rearview mirror is objectively incorrect.
I didn't ask to be brought into this thread, but you are not fairly representing my comment about being an elite PP contributor only three years ago. You're leaning into trashing it without knowing what it says. I recommend avoiding such behavior. I clearly state Krug is an elite PP contributor now and should be for a few more years but not six. I was responding to the idea rebutted to me that because he was played that way for the 2019 Bruins three years ago team that yes, contended, but no, did not win, he should be considered one now. I explained my perspective in that thread that the Bruins playoff Krug does not influence my opinion as much as the 2021 playoff Krug who was overmatched as a defender against top forwards.

Now, if I had been asked to comment on the 2020 Krug I would have, but not referencing is not "dishonest" or "ludicrous" in a world where I saw the 2021 playoff Krug which I have to assume you saw too. Please. To me, that is not a player who you can put one injury from top line duty, you need him insulated. Maybe we are arguing over "degree of contenderhood" when you get down to rock bottom. I'm talking about being a real contender which Faulk-Parayko-Krug is absolutely not a contender top 3. The thread this was pulled from is about acquiring a top LD. Krug is a higher end offensive Shattenkirk who is beginning a decline and you can't have him on the top pair like you can't have Dunn on the top pair like you couldn't have Shattenkirk on the top pair. They're specialists especially when they are small. I recall Shattenkirk getting spun like a top in 2016 WCF by the likes of Chris Tierney. Players with this profile have to be used correctly and you have to get their production while they're on ELC or RFA years because paying UFA dollars for that skillset will frequently cripple you, since you do need the upside they provide but those players usually are subpar to average defenders.

I am consistent with this opinion of Krug. If you don't believe that you can dig up me bemoaning in the Game 3 GDT how the Blues had an opportunity to exploit Krug with forecheck pressure and started to, but he wound up with a dominant 4 PP point game since the Blues crippled themselves with penalties. The Bruins defense was also not really the reason that team was contenders, and Tampa bowing out saved both teams' butts. There's still a gap between them and the rest of the league and "contending" in my meaning of it means lining up believing you can beat the top team. The not-intimidating Bruins defense was part of why we thought we could win in 2019, I'll remind you.
 

JoernAZ

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Oct 19, 2018
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Just heard sdpn putting us at 6th. Naming Binny and Tarasenko as the major wildcards.

Kind of agree in them being wildcards, but I also think they will prove something this season.

Love being rated as underdogs. Suits us much better than being favs. I am actually quite stoked of what we can do this season. I like the adds we have gotten, defense are looking better, and to me at least Tarasenko looks "healed" from everything that has happened. Just hoping Binny and Husso are reliable though.
 

Falco Lombardi

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I think we have a real good forward group. I have confidence in Binnington.

The problem is the defense. If Parayko can regain his healthy form, then that will help, but I really don’t like the left side.
 
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Ranksu

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I think we have a real good forward group. I have confidence in Binnington.

The problem is the defense. If Parayko can regain his healthy form, then that will help, but I really don’t like the left side.
If Tarasenko is 85% of normal himself and Thomas really goes another level our forward group might be even better in paper vs Cup year.

D-group is bubble team level and even worse. After Parayko its meh and we don't know is Parayko 100% himself.

I don't trust Faulk can play full season how he played his first 15 games last year after he went normal himself, negative player.

Krug should play better and I really don't see it happening.

Too many ifs in my liking.

I consider it as success if we get in playoffs and huge success if we pass 1st round.
 

fishsandwichpatrol

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Sort of the opposite of last year. Last year I penciled them in as a contender but had a lot to prove. This year I'm penciling them in as not a contender but would not be surprised if they ended up having a good run in the playoffs.
 

Majorityof1

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I have changed my mind a bit. I must be feeling very optimistic this morning. We are still not a contender yet. However, if a bunch of stuff breaks in our favor, then I can very much see us as a contender. We need several things to break the right way. But the absolute essentials are...

-Parayko plays like a healthy Parayko
-We secure a LD at the trade deadline of or near the caliber of Lindholm or Ekholm.
- None of our key pieces regresses
-Some of our younger guys step up a bit.

That's all. It feels like a lot, but it is all entirely possible.
 

PocketNines

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I have changed my mind a bit. I must be feeling very optimistic this morning. We are still not a contender yet. However, if a bunch of stuff breaks in our favor, then I can very much see us as a contender. We need several things to break the right way. But the absolute essentials are...

-Parayko plays like a healthy Parayko
-We secure a LD at the trade deadline of or near the caliber of Lindholm or Ekholm.
- None of our key pieces regresses
-Some of our younger guys step up a bit.

That's all. It feels like a lot, but it is all entirely possible.
This is how I see it. 1, 3, 4 are all entirely possible, though any of a range of outcomes would be believable.

#2 is the key. Optimism or pessimism about being a real contender vs. just topping out at first/second round fodder pivots around this need. While there might be 1-3 players available, that's a far cry from landing them, and they might not be available. The Blues need Seattle, Anaheim and Nashville to suck, and/or maybe score an extra 2022 1st out of a Tarasenko deal to mesmerize Bill Armstrong into a bonehead move.

If the current 1-2-3 defensemen get pushed down a notch to 2-3-4 minutes by adding a stalwart defender who contributes more offense than Parayko, that is a team I could reasonably think had a chance to compete for a Cup. Any and all creative ideas should be explored to bring this player onboard, as difficult a feat as it will be, and even if it creates another hole to address, as long as the hole it creates is easier to address which it generally should be.
 
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Falco Lombardi

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This is how I see it. 1, 3, 4 are all entirely possible, though any of a range of outcomes would be believable.

#2 is the key. Optimism or pessimism about being a real contender vs. just topping out at first/second round fodder pivots around this need. While there might be 1-3 players available, that's a far cry from landing them, and they might not be available. The Blues need Seattle, Anaheim and Nashville to suck, and/or maybe score an extra 2022 1st out of a Tarasenko deal to mesmerize Bill Armstrong into a bonehead move.

If the current 1-2-3 defensemen get pushed down a notch to 2-3-4 minutes by adding a stalwart defender who contributes more offense than Parayko, that is a team I could reasonably think had a chance to compete for a Cup. Any and all creative ideas should be explored to bring this player onboard, as difficult a feat as it will be, and even if it creates another hole to address, as long as the hole it creates is easier to address which it generally should be.


Yeah I would agree with this assessment.
 

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