Do You Think Ovechkin's Legacy Will Improve over Time

[wetcoast]

Yeah don’t worry. You’re not crazy. People have been acting weird about Russian guys for about thirty years. There’s a reason Michkov prospect thread was way longer than comparable players. One guy was borderline losing his mind about Michkov scoring apparently a lot of points against a Chinese goalie in the khl and reciting off a list of random Russian busts a bunch of whom were like 3rd round-undrafted players.

Sadly the crazies on both sides doesn't help but the broad accusation , even more so on this board, is just lazy at best that people don't like or rate Oiv because of not being from Canada and frankly some people should be embarrassed about this but it's 2025 so they won't be.

It’s definitely a thing and always been a thing. Hockey media, random internet people, etc. I guess because the Soviet teams were largely “faceless” products of the communist government and then one day all of a sudden a bunch of Russian dudes came to the nhl and some didn’t immediately fit in with the cultural vibe, and then geopolitics right now, etc. but yeah it’s a thing.

Yet somehow Malkin, Ovi and lots of Russian goalies get recognized but still this card gets played?

Mogilny is probably in the hall of fame already if he’s from Minnesota.

No he wouldn't as he was wildly inconsistent and if he actually played for a consistent 6 or 7 years like he could show at times he might be in the HHOF but he just doesn't have it.

Mogilny des have a 6 year period where he is 2nd in NHL goals but he is 11th in points over the same timeframe and his playoff resume is kinda meh as well that's why he isn't in the HHOF.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sadly the crazies on both sides doesn't help but the broad accusation , even more so on this board, is just lazy at best that people don't like or rate Oiv because of not being from Canada and frankly some people should be embarrassed about this but it's 2025 so they won't be.


Yet somehow Malkin, Ovi and lots of Russian goalies get recognized but still this card gets played?



No he wouldn't as he was wildly inconsistent and if he actually played for a consistent 6 or 7 years like he could show at times he might be in the HHOF but he just doesn't have it.

Mogilny des have a 6 year period where he is 2nd in NHL goals but he is 11th in points over the same timeframe and his playoff resume is kinda meh as well that's why he isn't in the HHOF.

Yeah maybe, maybe not. Followed the discourse for 30 years. “But I liked the Russian five! I have a Russian friend!” etc. heard it all but for whatever reason it remains most prevalent in a way that isn’t the case for other nationalities. So don’t easily buy the “you’re crazy! You’re just seeing things!” stuff.

 

[Randyne]

By 2017, Ovechkin's Caps had won three Presidents trophies and never advanced past the 2nd round. The gap between regular season performance and playoff success for the team was quite wide.

Because PO is a whole different animal. In RS teams play 82 games w/o paying much attention to their opponent's star. In PO they play a best-of-seven series.

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah maybe, maybe not. Followed the discourse for 30 years. “But I liked the Russian five! I have a Russian friend!” etc. heard it all but for whatever reason it remains most prevalent in a way that isn’t the case for other nationalities. So don’t easily buy the “you’re crazy! You’re just seeing things!” stuff.

I can't speak for others but I find the HOH section routinely rates Russian layers very highly and as a kid in the 70s I fell in love with the Russian style of play (as opposed to the Broad street Bullies NHL) so I find the whole "well if he was from Canada" "argument" silly at best and intellectually dishonest at times from some proponents.

Most people in this board section, heck pretty much all of the regulars have consistent standards in how they judge players and none of those standards have anything to do with nationality.

 

[wetcoast]

Because PO is a whole different animal. In RS teams play 82 games w/o paying much attention to their opponent's star. In PO they play a best-of-seven series.

Man I wonder if you realize the can of worms being opened here?

 

[WarriorofTime]

I can't speak for others but I find the HOH section routinely rates Russian layers very highly and as a kid in the 70s I fell in love with the Russian style of play (as opposed to the Broad street Bullies NHL) so I find the whole "well if he was from Canada" "argument" silly at best and intellectually dishonest at times from some proponents.

Most people in this board section, heck pretty much all of the regulars have consistent standards in how they judge players and none of those standards have anything to do with nationality.

The 10 or so regulars in history of hockey aren’t the sole means of hockey discourse though. Had discussions on own team board with people thinking Demidov was “risky” as as a Russian in Russia. No amount of evidence showing Russian players routinely signing ELCs including post Ukraine invasion would dissuade them for thinking it was too “risky”. People just have their minds made up sometimes.

 

[Randyne]

Man I wonder if you realize the can of worms being opened here?

What worms?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Man I wonder if you realize the can of worms being opened here?

The can of worms that maybe Nicklas Backstrom wasn’t really that great after all despite his presidents trophy winning pedigree. Hard to win too many cups if your first line center with all the powerplay time, etc. can’t score at a 0.3 GPG pace.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The 10 or so regulars in history of hockey aren’t the sole means of hockey discourse though

Certainly that's the audience here. So maybe we can focus on the hockey here more and the political or whatever discourse can be delivered to that audience where ever they may exist...

I'm not denying that anti-Russian bias exists. But to keep inserting it into the conversation of primarily HoH regulars hardly seems like a productive area of conversation, right?

 

[wetcoast]

The 10 or so regulars in history of hockey aren’t the sole means of hockey discourse though. Had discussions on own team board with people thinking Demidov was “risky” as as a Russian in Russia. No amount of evidence showing Russian players routinely signing ELCs including post Ukraine invasion would dissuade them for thinking it was too “risky”. People just have their minds made up sometimes.

The difference is that opinions differ on almost all top prospects, and the Russian factor is real in the sense that some top prospects from there have the option of playing in the KHL and sometimes their development isn't as controlled as for a prospect from elsewhere.

But that's a unique situational thing not a "Russian thing" the same circumstances could apply to any country if they had a pro league that paid like the KHL.

I had Demidov 2nd in the 24 draft and as a possible #1 when he was 16 extremely gifted player.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Certainly that's the audience here. So maybe we can focus on the hockey here more and the political or whatever discourse can be delivered to that audience where ever they may exist...

I'm not denying that anti-Russian bias exists. But to keep inserting it into the conversation of primarily HoH regulars hardly seems like a productive area of conversation, right?

I largely agree with Bear of Bad News that it’s easier to criticize lists than to make your own. Also something I see routinely in similar nba discussions that I think is similar to here is when some people say top 10 they often just meaning top 10 post-1980 but plus Howe and Orr. So I don’t think Ovechkin outside a top 10… from people that have really dug in and done the research… and give proper fairness to like the first 100 years of hockey history is some crazy outlandish position in that respect. Specific feelings from people that post here is of course specific to them. Daver claimed Kucherov is lucky he wasn’t kicked out of the league when Putin invaded Ukraine. Wetcoast was pretty consistently wrong over three years with rather outlandish claims that the capitals sacrificed all reasonable team building or roster deployment so Ovechkin could limp to the Gretzky record. Nobody else says anything too wild.

 

[MadLuke]

The can of worms that maybe Nicklas Backstrom wasn’t really that great after all despite his presidents trophy winning pedigree. Hard to win too many cups if your first line center with all the powerplay time, etc. can’t score at a 0.3 GPG pace.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That not so different than the Backstrom-Bergeron-Krejci-Toews-Getzlaf-Datsyuk... it was not a era with a lot of goals going on

 

[WarriorofTime]

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That not so different than the Backstrom-Bergeron-Krejci-Toews-Getzlaf-Datsyuk... it was not a era with a lot of goals going on

True. Backstrom discourse is of course an interesting topic in and of itself as typically it’s a lesser winger riding shotgun with a generationalish center. Backstrom fairly unique in a guy that made a career out of shoveling pucks to best goal scorer ever which is basically a category of only him. One thing with Backstrom compared to like a Kopitar Toews Bergeron Datsyuk is those were all basically best matchup centers in the era of the 2-way matchup center which is not something that fit Backstrom as well.

 

[Randyne]

The can of worms that maybe Nicklas Backstrom wasn’t really that great after all despite his presidents trophy winning pedigree. Hard to win too many cups if your first line center with all the powerplay time, etc. can’t score at a 0.3 GPG pace.

Oh that worms?
Yep. Only when Backstrom was out the Caps advanced to the CF. He was too soft for the PO.

 

[authentic]

It might be the cringiest thing ever when people play the nationality card with Ovechkin.

Yeah maybe, maybe not. Followed the discourse for 30 years. “But I liked the Russian five! I have a Russian friend!” etc. heard it all but for whatever reason it remains most prevalent in a way that isn’t the case for other nationalities. So don’t easily buy the “you’re crazy! You’re just seeing things!” stuff.

I don’t get this in response to posters on this board who rank other Russians very highly and present legitimate cases for several players being ranked higher than Ovechkin regardless of nationality. Are we sure it’s not the people whining about nationality that rank Ovechkin ahead of Crosby because he’s Canadian? Because that seems a tad more likely to me.

 

[authentic]

I mean people like this obviously exist but picking names out of a hat for these accusations is insane

 

[WarriorofTime]

It might be the cringiest thing ever when people play the nationality card with Ovechkin.

Don’t care.

 

[Randyne]

It might be the cringiest thing ever when people play the nationality card with Ovechkin.

Yep. It's sad when those people are voters. They left Malkin behind top 100 and gave Ovechkin 13!!! last places in 2010 Hart. It's disgusting.

 

[authentic]

Yep. It's sad when those people are voters. They left Malkin behind top 100 and gave Ovechkin 13!!! last places in 2010 Hart. It's disgusting.

I mean when people accuse certain posters on this board. Also I’m sure there were some Canadians who were ranked lower than they should’ve been, according to someone.

 

[wetcoast]

True. Backstrom discourse is of course an interesting topic in and of itself as typically it’s a lesser winger riding shotgun with a generationalish center. Backstrom fairly unique in a guy that made a career out of shoveling pucks to best goal scorer ever which is basically a category of only him.

One thing with Backstrom compared to like a Kopitar Toews Bergeron Datsyuk is those were all basically best matchup centers in the era of the 2-way matchup center which is not something that fit Backstrom as well.

11-12 Backstrom faced Boston and outplayed Bergero20-21 a 33 year old Backstrom didn't do as well against Boston but injuries were setting in and he never played in a series against the other 3 guys mentioned.

Backstrom in his prime was a fine player and this comment is just mid boggling to say the last.

Oh that worms?
Yep. Only when Backstrom was out the Caps advanced to the CF. He was too soft for the PO.

 

[Randyne]

Backstrom in his prime was a fine player and this comment is just mid boggling to say the last.

Goal differential (GF-GA) per 60 5v5 in the PO 2008-2022:
Ovechkin with Backstrom =.46
Backstrom w/o Ovechkin =.06
Ovechkin w/o Backstrom =.87

 

[Randyne]

Also I’m sure there were some Canadians who were ranked lower than they should’ve been, according to someone.

Then name Canadian players who were outside top 100 with:
Calder+Hart+Smythe+2xRoss+TL

Also name Canadian players w/o Hart in a season with TL and top1 by GPG and by PPG.

 

[wetcoast]

Goal differential (GF-GA) per 60 5v5 in the PO 2008-2022:
Ovechkin with Backstrom =.46
Backstrom w/o Ovechkin =.06
Ovechkin w/o Backstrom =.87

Source and breakdown?

 

[Randyne]

Source and breakdown?

naturalstattrick.com PO 2008-2022 5v5

 

[wetcoast]

Then name Canadian players who were outside top 100 with:
Calder+Hart+Smythe+2xRoss+TL

Also name Canadian players w/o Hart but with TL and top1 by GPG and by PPG.

Malkin was 52nd all time in the last HOH top 100 players of all time is that too low a rating for a guy that only played over 69 games in an 82 game season 7 times out of 19 seasons?