CokenoPepsi
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I dunno, he'd be in the conversation. Finishing with 900+ goals is something.
Are we going to say McDavid isn't going to be there if he doesn't win one now which is more likely than not now.
Do you think Ovechkin's legacy will improve over time?
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I dunno, he'd be in the conversation. Finishing with 900+ goals is something.
Are we going to say McDavid isn't going to be there if he doesn't win one now which is more likely than not now.
Crosby2010
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I am not sure if this is still a knock on Mario, but there are few players in NHL history who could score with plugs on their line or stars. Mario could do both. Check out the career of Wendell Young. You might notice a singular season that sticks out. That was rookie Mario he was playing with. Rob Brown comes to mind. When you are simply that good as Mario was then you are the reason for your success, not another Hall of Famer you play with.
Backstrom I would say has a decent shot at it. Might fall short, but if Getzlaf is getting in then a contemporary like Backstrom isn't outlandish either. Either way, Green, Holtby, Backstrom, Carlson and even Semin all at least had seasons or peaks where they played like Hall of Famers or that they could go in that direction. Barry Trotz as the coach when they won, that's as close to a coach being in the Hall as you'll find. Throw in Kuznetsov too. Other guys like Oshie, Justin Williams, etc. lots of support Ovechkin had on those teams. Those Caps were very good teams, they led the NHL in points three times in Ovie's career.
Doctor No
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Saw more rubber than a skunk on the Trans-Canada Highway! Also won Stanley Cup, Turner Cup, Calder Cup, and Memorial Cup.
Warren Young was also a fine Penguin.
Crosby2010
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Saw more rubber than a skunk on the Trans-Canada Highway! Also won Stanley Cup, Turner Cup, Calder Cup, and Memorial Cup.
View attachment 910930
Warren Young was also a fine Penguin.
Yes, Warren Young.
DRW895
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- Dec 29, 2021
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I hope. Right now too much are trying to disparage achievements Ovechkin`s achievements.
For example: many people are admiring by crosby 2023/24 season, but ignore Ovechkin`s 2021/22. In Ovechkin`s case his team made playoff. And so many other unfair examples
For example: many people are admiring by crosby 2023/24 season, but ignore Ovechkin`s 2021/22. In Ovechkin`s case his team made playoff. And so many other unfair examples
Crosby2010
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Ovechkin's 2022 was great. 50 goals, 90 points. He was 16th in points, which is alright. This was a year that for whatever reason he was putting up assists as well. First 2-3 months of the season he was vintage Ovechkin, but then cooled off. Crosby had 84 points that year in 69 games. A 1.21 PPG. Ovechkin's was 1.16. Even with that season and it was the best Ovechkin had done in a while and perhaps the only season you could say he bests Crosby since 2010 and you can still go either way on it.
Thenameless
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For sure, this will happen over time. Especially with the goal scoring record. People a hundred years from now aren't going to watch whole seasons of games and catch the nuance of what makes Crosby the better player in general. Ahead in trophies and an all-time goals record would likely slant things in his favour.
895
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Don't want to start a new thread for this question so I'm bumping this one.
The way Ovechkin breaks the record is important right? Right now he's playing well, on pace to score +50 goals and break the record this year. The Capitals are a good team, in a playoff position.
Breaking the record this way, adds far more to his legacy than if were playing poorly, scoring 20-30 goals a year while being a liability on a bottom feeder?
The way Ovechkin breaks the record is important right? Right now he's playing well, on pace to score +50 goals and break the record this year. The Capitals are a good team, in a playoff position.
Breaking the record this way, adds far more to his legacy than if were playing poorly, scoring 20-30 goals a year while being a liability on a bottom feeder?
JackSlater
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In the short term yes. In the long term, for example someone looking back years or decades from now, it wouldn't matter how he broke it. Credit to Ovechkin for starting off this strongly at his age with that many miles.
filinski77
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Only season he bests Crosby? No way.
Not including seasons where Ovi had a better season, but Crosby was the better player (but missed significant time) - which is like 3 straight seasons at the start of 2010’s.
Ovi better in 2015
Ovi better in 2018
Ovi better in 2020
Ovi better in 2022
Plus a few seasons where it’s very close. PLUS important to consider the aging curve since Ovi is 2 years older than Crosby at each head to head comparison here.
WarriorofTime
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DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
Agreed. The narrative was that Ovechkin was better in 2015 and 2018. 2015 was kind of a down season for Crosby at the time whereas Ovechkin had one of his best goal scoring seasons and did better in Hart voting. In 2018 Crosby had a rather disappointing start by his standards (Kessel was doing a lot better offensively early on) and he ended up third on his team in scoring. That was the season McDavid overtook him as the best player in the League. I don't think it's close as to who had the better season in 2020. In 2022 Ovechkin got off to a hot start and Crosby started off slowly. Crosby made up ground later on, but overall I think Ovechkin's season was better.
This year, if they both finish around PPG (or Ovechkin finishes at about a .95 PPG clip but has a very strong goal scoring season), Ovechkin will be seen as having had the better season as well. It looks like the Caps will make the playoffs and may be a legit good team. The Penguins are kind of a mess.
Really, in the regular season, they're very close. Ovechkin was often better in their very early seasons, Crosby might have a clear edge if he had been healthy in his peak years. What makes it close despite his injuries and games missed is that there have been some seasons where Crosby was far and away the better player (2007, 2017, 2021, 2023, 2024).
I think Crosby's playoff career is the thing that puts him ahead all-time. By no means has Ovechkin been bad in the playoffs, and I don't judge playoff careers solely based on Cups won. I just think Crosby's body of work in the post season is that much better.
Hockey Outsider
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It won't matter to casual fans. But for me, it's important. Here's an old post where I talk about how the circumstances matter:
1. If Ovechkin gets the all-time record for goals, regardless of how he gets there (see point #3), absolutely it will influence his legacy among casual fans. Most hockey fans don't do deep analysis, so holding a significant all-time record will boost his legacy. (In fifty years, Ovechkin's one-sentence summary could be something like "all-time leader in goals scored, won three Hart trophies, won an Art Ross and Conn Smythe, big hitter, greatest or 2nd greatest LW in NHL history").
2. Regardless of whether Ovechkin gets to #895, I don't think it changes much about his career (beyond superficial bullet points). Career totals have always been a poor way to evaluate a player. Besides, Ovechkin has already surpassed Gretzky by any reasonable measure of era-adjusted goals.
Weztex and bobholly39 cover this well in their posts. If you don't already have Ovechkin ranked as the greatest goal-scorer all-time when he's at 880-something goals, whether he gets another ten goals beyond that is superficial and arbitrary. To make an analogy - I've seen people say that Peter Bondra didn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame after 2006 (when he was at 498 goals), but he magically became a HOF'er in 2007 (when he was terrible but scored five more goals). This "line in the sand" type of thinking is completely arbitrary and emphasizes numbers for the sake of numbers. (Stats can be the byproduct of playing well, but they're not the end goal in and of themselves).
3. That being said, it would also depend on how Ovechkin reaches #895. If he scores, say, 45, 40 and 35 goals in consecutive seasons (always playing at a high level), that would make his career more impressive because instead of having a 17 year prime, that means that he'd have a 20 year prime. Very few players have performed as well as Ovechkin in his mid 30's, and if he plays at an all-star level for three more years, he's getting into Gordie Howe and Ray Bourque territory.
On the other hand, if Ovechkin suddenly begins struggling and hangs on for six years as a powerplay specialist (otherwise relegated to the third-line ), and gets 20 goals per year this way, that adds nothing to his legacy. (This is how Dave Andreychuk reached 600 goals). If Ovechkin scores 40-45 goals for two years and retires with ~860 goals, I'd find that more impressive than if he reaches 895 goals, playing six years as a geriatric Dave Andreychuk clone. What counts is the level of performance.
4. I don't think much changes for Gretzky if Ovechkin reaches #895. For the superficial fans (who are looking for bullet points, rather than any deep analysis) - Gretzky still has another 60 records, so he'll be fine. For those doing a deeper dive - a lot of regulars on the History forum (myself included) already don't consider Gretzky the greatest goal-scorer in NHL history (so it's not like he's losing the top spot in this category). Ovechkin will continue to climb the all-time rankings if he continues to play at an all-star level, of course, but what counts is his level of performance (rather than the career totals for the sake of career totals).
Sentinel
Registered User
Luckily, we don't have to make that distinction. Ovechkin belongs in the Top10 as soon as he scores #895.
Yes, we are going to say that. If he McD does not win the Cup, he will forever remain (1) the best player not to do it and (2) outside the Top10.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
WarriorofTime
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Ovechkin has a few factors that I think will help his legacy as time goes on, particularly as people who watched [x] player continue to pass and those players become thought of more as relics from a stone age as opposed to modern players that weave a connection to the current NHL.
1) Best Goalscorer of all time. Already is, but a record means a lot to make this less of a debate as time wears on.
2) Best Left Wing of all time. Holding down a rare high impact position like that probably gives a bit of a boost.
3) Best Russian of all time. Certainly at an NHL level. And as time goes on, Soviet achievements become less impactful.
Of course all of these can be lessened if surpassed by someone else. However, upon retirement, Ovechkin should hold all these titles. That certainly gets attention and stands out more I suppose from uhh "casuals" more so than being the 7th or 8th best Canadian Center with a 1.7 Assist to Goal Ratio
1) Best Goalscorer of all time. Already is, but a record means a lot to make this less of a debate as time wears on.
2) Best Left Wing of all time. Holding down a rare high impact position like that probably gives a bit of a boost.
3) Best Russian of all time. Certainly at an NHL level. And as time goes on, Soviet achievements become less impactful.
Of course all of these can be lessened if surpassed by someone else. However, upon retirement, Ovechkin should hold all these titles. That certainly gets attention and stands out more I suppose from uhh "casuals" more so than being the 7th or 8th best Canadian Center with a 1.7 Assist to Goal Ratio
Plural
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I agree. Before winning the World Cup, Messi was considered as an all-time great, but a lot of people refused to entertain the idea that he is in the GOAT conversation. One tournament win and he surged in all-time lists. Whether we agree with it or not, championships hold immense career value for a lot of people.
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No single player can carry a hockey team (it has never happened), and so the championship thing is arbitrary IMO. With a greater number of NHL teams than in the past, the likelihood of going an entire career without a cup increases significantly. Holding that against an individual player becomes increasingly unreasonable.
IMO a more reasonable standard is to measure a player against what was humanly possible given the circumstance they were in.
IMO a more reasonable standard is to measure a player against what was humanly possible given the circumstance they were in.
A lot of people claimed he wasn't the GOAT but he was totally in the conversation the whole time.
It's unfortunate though if there wasn't a salary cap and no draft McDavid would never be in this predicament.
Steve Kournianos
@thedraftanalyst
Crosby is the superior player, but history will probably be kinder to Ovechkin than Crosby after we’re all gone. People who will never have watched either play likely focus on the records and trophies over anything else, and as of today it’s basically a wash without the Richards, all things considered. Breaking a Gretzky record deemed untouchable is something Crosby can’t claim. And this sharp Penguins regression while Ovechkin trends towards a 40-goal season at 40 years old and a potential Cup run will make his case look stronger.
I’m actually curious to see how their last years play out, especially playoff-wise. Like Crosby last season, Ovechkin continues to defy logic.
I’m actually curious to see how their last years play out, especially playoff-wise. Like Crosby last season, Ovechkin continues to defy logic.
JackSlater
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I believe this is an accurate assessment of how people will look back on players. Realistically Crosby was a somewhat better player, but Ovechkin has a much better story to tell. Things that a contemporary fan would be aware of get lost and you're left with the things mentioned here, plus Ovechkin will have some excellent highlight reels. Something is lost when someone looks back on players but didn't experience them at the time - you can mitigate it with research but 99.9% of fans, now and in the future, aren't interested in going back and taking an actual look at the players.
WarriorofTime
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I think McDavid is probably a bigger threat to Crosby remembrance than Ovechkin. 10 year age gap is a lot right now but fades as time goes on. Narrative of McDavid’s took Crosby’s “crown” and then ran away from his historical achievements. I just hope McDavid doesn’t get screwed with the Cup (or even Cup in prime) but im holding out that it’ll come in time.
