Do you think Ovechkin's legacy will improve over time?

[daver]

Ovechkin may well end up as the only Top20 player in history not to have another Hall of Fame teammate over the course of his entire career (except pre-retirement Fedorov). Backstrom, Green, Oshie, and Holtby are not making it.

It is no surprise that the Caps won in '18 when they were able to ice two very good lines vs. one loaded line. Kuzy playing well allowed the Caps to finally separate OV and Backstrom; their two best offensive forwards.

The Pens were always able to separate their two best forwards because Crosby could carry a line of lower depth chart forwards and produce world class numbers (in '09) or effectively play a 2-way C role (in '16).

Ovechkin could never carry a line on his own to a point where the Caps would load up a 2nd line. He lacked the offensive versatility.

It is also no surprise that when OV clearly played a more responsible defensive game in '18, the Caps won.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It's interesting to note that not only did Crosby face the most ES minutes against Lidstrom and Zetterberg in both '08 and '09, he also faced the most against Datsyuk in both years.

The Wings were essentially treating the Pens as a one line team in both years by throwing their three world class defenders against Crosby.

Every playoff series Alex Ovechkin has ever played has had that level of focus on him.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Pens were always able to separate their two best forwards because Crosby could carry a line of lower depth chart forwards and produce world class numbers (in '09) or effectively play a 2-way C role (in '16).

Pens had Crosby and Malkin, Backstrom was OK but never Malkin-esque. I think I saw somewhere the Pens had a better record in games Crosby missed throughout his career.

I think the real key for the Pens is Malkin could carry a line with randoms at even strength. That's a gift very few teams get out of their 2nd best forward.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I would pretty comfortably take Lemieux first 5 years over Ovechkin first five years.

Goals: 1,1,4
Assists: 1, 2, 2,
Points: 1, 1, 2, 3
Hart : 1, 2, 2, 3
All-Star: 1, 1, 2, 2

All those 2s are behind prime Gretzky.

I'd take McDavid too, for whatever it's worth, but that's after 2010.

You would take McDavid's 1 Hart and 2 Pearsons over Ovechkin's 2 Harts and 3 Pearsons?

McDavid had a 4 point lead in points over second place and a 5 point lead over 3rd place, and was 8th in goals in those 5 years.

Ovechkin was 1st in points and 1st in goals by a wide margin.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin could never carry a line on his own to a point where the Caps would load up a 2nd line. He lacked the offensive versatility.

That is not accurate.

Ovechkin had no problem scoring with Halpern, Kozlov, Ribeiro, Kuznetsov or Strome.

The reason Crosby and Malkin get split at ES is that they simply aren't that good together. Crosby needs wingers who will do the defensive lifting for him, otherwise it doesn't work. That's why Kunitz was a Canadian Olympian.

 

[MadLuke]

Ribeiro, Kuznetsov

Not sure if you are talking about the same things, those are PPG near elite playmaking center and it is about how much the line score not just a player, but for sure peak Ovechkin could carry a line like few others, there is also something about how well player do together, Drai-McDavid are often paired because of just how well they produce, not because they can't without each other, LeClair scored well without Lindros, you still pair them.

get split at ES is that they simply aren't that good together. Crosby needs wingers who will do the defensive lifting for him,

Not sure on both account here, is that why Guentzel was such a good fit ? or that Malkin-Crosby were not that good together, that a post their prime phenomenon. Playing cycling hockey make the Dupuis-Kunitz particularly good for him.

Now it is often special occasion deployment (back from a break end of period need a goal, end of game need a goal), so there will be some scoring effect, but from 2008-2010

At 5v5 - 2008-2010
Malkin with/without Crosby: 62.4 GF % / 48.8 GF%
Malkin with Crosby: 4.63 goal per 60 minutes (much higher than when when he played with his most usual partner Sykora( 3.47)

Those are elite offensive output numbers
At 5v5 - 2011-2013
Malkin with/without Crosby: 70.27 GF % / 51.28 GF%
Malkin with Crosby: 6.28 goal per 60 minutes (much higher than when when he played with his most usual partner Neal (3.69))

Now everyone had crazy number when Crosby was on the ice during that stretch, but more than one goal being scored every 10 minute of play.....,

After that they virtually stopped playing together at 5v5 (42 minutes from 2017-2019) with terrible result the little they do, but not when they were in their prime and did it more, it was just too much to contain even if they were not greater than the sum of their part happening at all with them.

 

[MadLuke]

Every playoff series Alex Ovechkin has ever played has had that level of focus on him.

And do you think that is not the case for Mario when he was winning cup because Jagr existed ? Or Wayne because of Messier ? Stastny because of Goulet ? (Or Jagr when Mario was not there), that the norm for the best player in the league.

Unlike football-baseball, I am not sure with hockey how much you can do, if you say that Carbonneau best use of his time is trying to stop Stastny in what way a Goulet second line change things and will make it easier for Peter ?

Maybe on the margin and the other way around is obvious, it help Goulet a lot and regarding winning it is obvious how it help, but once you are the clear first line (even by just a little) in the eye of the other team there is just so much they can do in hockey which mean there is not much less they can do because of the rest of the team.

In football-basketball not being double teamed because the number 2-3 option are so good is a giant deal, in baseball the next batter meaning they cannot avoid pitching to you is big, but in hockey ?

A rare case that 1A-1B was close enough and not all team put their best defensive players against the same line could be Forsberg-Sakic, I am not sure if Chelios always faced the same every series.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

I think most people (rightly) put Ovechkin as the second best player of this era. There is a significant concrete gap between Crosby and Ovechkin.

However, what happens when people who saw both players and lived in this era get older and become the minority?

On paper, Ovechkin has a slight lead in individual awards. 3 to 2 Harts, 8 First team all stars to 4 and probably most important of all, he will probably have the goal record.

People are infuated with goals and the like. Ovie's stock will go up based on this effect. This can be the only reason why Lemieux's 5 goals in 5 different ways was seen as the greatest feat in the NHL's first 100 years. It was basically a novelty at the time, nothing close to Orr's flying goal or Gretz's 50 in 39. Hard to tell though, if you didn't live through the eras.

That said, I figure that Crosby will get a positive bump too, as he seems to be punished for not scoring enough. I predict that his overall game will carry more weight down the line. Kind of like Howe, I would think. Those who try to put Ovie ahead of Crosby will invite serious discussion about his 60 foot game vs Crosby's 200 and other things like international hardware.

 

[Sentinel]

It is no surprise that the Caps won in '18 when they were able to ice two very good lines vs. one loaded line. Kuzy playing well allowed the Caps to finally separate OV and Backstrom; their two best offensive forwards.

The Pens were always able to separate their two best forwards because Crosby could carry a line of lower depth chart forwards and produce world class numbers (in '09) or effectively play a 2-way C role (in '16).

Ovechkin could never carry a line on his own to a point where the Caps would load up a 2nd line. He lacked the offensive versatility.

It is also no surprise that when OV clearly played a more responsible defensive game in '18, the Caps won.

You can only "carry" a line if you are an elite passer (Jagr, MSL, Kucherov) That was never Ovechkin's job or strength.

 

[bobholly39]

Ovechkin is well below ppg in the playoffs. Comparing him to lemieux is just insanity

In another thread said poster was arguing Mario Lemieux and Patrick Marleau are comparable lol.

 

[daver]

You can only "carry" a line if you are an elite passer (Jagr, MSL, Kucherov) That was never Ovechkin's job or strength.

Not sure why didn't include Crosby as an elite passer but that it exactly the point. Crosby's offensive versatility allowed for more offensive depth on the Pens. He could produce with any quality of linemate; Ovechkin needed another elite forward on his line. This was especially apparent during the playoffs.

You can't complain about the Caps' lack of support when the Pens roster outside of Malkin and Crosby is possibly the weakest for a Cup winner in NHL history.

 

[WarriorofTime]

How can you look at ovechkin’s 2007-08 season and conclude that he needed another elite forward? That’s just blatant lying.

1	Alex Ovechkin	22	LW	82	65	47	112
2	Nicklas Bäckström	20	C	82	14	55	69
3	Mike Green	22	D	82	18	38	56
4	Viktor Kozlov	32	C	81	16	38	54
5	Alexander Semin	23	LW	63	26	16	42
6	Brooks Laich	24	C	82	21	16	37
7	Michael Nylander	35	C	40	11	26	37
8	Tomáš Fleischmann	23	RW	75	10	20	30
9	Tom Poti	30	D	71	2	27	29
10	Matt Bradley	29	RW	77	7	11	18

 

[MadLuke]

How can you look at ovechkin’s 2007-08 season and conclude that he needed another elite forward? That’s just blatant lying.

I would not get the notion that 2006-2010 needed anything or anyone to work..... he was a super version of Pavel Bure at least, but I doubt it is really a point someone is trying to make.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I would not get the notion that 2006-2010 needed anything or anyone to work..... he was a super version of Pavel Bure at least, but I doubt it is really a point someone is trying to make.

I think it'd be tough to have a discussion on Ovechkin's legacy that disregards his peak. Obviously post 2010, Ovechkin becomes less prominent of an overall point producer and more so the guy who leads the league in powerplay goals 5 straight years from 2012-13 through 2016-17 kinda guy.

Ovechkin "needing" another "elite" forward on his line feels like a bit of a misstatement towards his career as a whole, as it's hard to say if he ever had an "elite" forward in general. Backstrom had perhaps one, maybe two seasons (two time 9th in Hart balloting for instance).

In a historical sense, Backstrom is most likely remembered as the guy who made a career out of shoveling pucks in the direction of the game's most prominent goal scorer.

 

[Crosby2010]

No it isn't. Ovechkin kicked the crap out of Crosby from 2005 to 2010. He was better in 4 of the 5 seasons and won 3 Harts, while having more points and a whopping 47% more goals while playing on a worse team. In that span, Ovechkin put up 3 seasons that are all better than Crosby's best season.



Eh, many of the Hart voters have demonstrated a willingness to over-extend themselves for Crosby.

Every Selke vote Sidney Crosby has ever received has been undeserved - clear evidence of wildly over-the-top bias.

They also gave him a Conn Smythe for a 65 point pace / 21 goal pace as a minus player while another player played at a 100 point / 30 goal pace while also contributing much more defensively. One Canadian voter cited Crosby's defense and penalty killing as the rationale. Crosby PK'd for 10 seconds per game in the 2016 playoffs. He didn't shut anyone down. He wasn't good in the finals or against their toughest rival (2 points against the Capitals). They simply wanted to give Sid a trophy, and that's all there is to it.

There is no rational basis for claiming Crosby had a top 5 most valuable season in 2011, 2018, 2021, 2023, or 2024. He didn't lead the NHL in anything, nor was he top 5 in anything. Crosby was winning votes over players who had more points and more goals, while contributing more penalty killing and better defense. Two of those seasons his team didn't even make the playoffs. So what's the case here for Crosby to appear on anyone's top 5 Hart ballot in '23 or '24? I've never actually heard anyone make a serious case for that.

Anyway, your summary of their careers post 2010 is a wild history revision.

Over that span Crosby has 69 more points and Ovechkin has 175 more goals - and this includes age 37 and age 38 seasons for Ovechkin. Ovechkin has 837 primary points to Crosby's 817. You painted this as some sort of blow out. The stats prove otherwise.

To be fair, Ovechkin won two Harts in that 2005-'10 timespan while Crosby won one. Both won an Art Ross. Ovechkin was excellent in this time, we all saw that, but Sid still has the most points out of any of them in a season at that time. I'll give Ovie the edge in the 2006, 2008, 2009 and 2010 seasons. Crosby the edge in 2007 and for sure the biggest gap between them in any of their seasons. But you are acting as if the rest of the years aren't close. Crosby was having the team success and the playoff success. As well as in the Olympics.

2005-'10:
Crosby - 506 points in 371 games for 1.36 PPG
Ovechkin - 529 points in 396 games for 1.33 PPG

Man that is awfully close. This is why I always consider them 1a) 1b) in that era. It was like steak or lobster. I always like to pick the centre who makes the players around him better, but in all honesty Ovechkin was so explosive at this time it makes you think a lot in his direction too. Your quote that he "kicked the crap out of Crosby" in this timeframe is wildly inaccurate. It was a coin flip.

Then we go post-2010 and the shift happens.
Crosby - 1090 points in 901 games for a PPG of 1.21
Ovechkin - 1021 points in 1030 games for a PPG of 0.99

Damn man, that is some separation there. What is it you think that Ovechkin did to make up for a 0.22 PPG deficit over 14 seasons?

You have to remember some advantages Ovechkin has had too. Brooks Orpik shot a puck that hit Crosby in the face in 2013 which caused him to miss 25% of the season or else Crosby is winning the Art Ross and Hart in a cake walk. He was easily the best player in the NHL that year and was still close to winning the Hart and Art Ross. As it was, he still won the Pearson.

I am just trying to figure out who you are talking about that had a monster 2016 playoffs (on pace for a 100 point season). It wasn't Kessel, and Kessel is the only guy who outscored Crosby on the Pens. Are you talking about Logan Couture on the Sharks? He did have a great postseason, 30 points and all, but there are 6 times in NHL history that a player on the losing team has won the Smythe, and this is the first time I ever heard that someone claimed Couture should have won it. I would say this, he has as good of a shot as any if the Sharks win the Cup. Martin Jones and Brent Burns come to mind also. But he was not winning this in a losing cause. McDavid in 2024 you simply could not ignore, Couture wasn't at that level.

Crosby had two previous better runs to the Cup than in 2016 where he didn't win the Smythe, but what were the options in 2016? I've got Kessel, Letang, Crosby and maybe Matt Murray as the options. Malkin had one less point than Crosby, so perhaps he is in the mix too. But this was not a cakewalk for anyone. Crosby had 3 game winners and even things like his instructions to Letang before the faceoff of the overtime goal in Game 2 of the Cup final was an example of how his leadership was being viewed. No one on the Pens had a postseason that stood out. Did Crosby get it because it was close enough and they just gave it to him? I think that got him over the hump yes, but there was not exactly anyone else that you couldn't ignore. Did Ovechkin benefit from being Ovechkin and the captain and a feel good story of him raising the Cup to winning the Conn Smythe? If we say this about Crosby in 2016 doesn't the same apply to Ovechkin? Kuznetsov had 5 more points and that Smythe could have easily gone to Holtby who made a memorable save in the Cup final that is probably as critical and outlandish as a save in such an important game as, what, maybe 10 other saves in NHL history? Plus he had great numbers too. Hey, I am fine with Ovechkin getting it, he earned it, just like Crosby earned it in 2016. But could it have gone to others in both situations? Oh yeah. It doesn't mean it still wasn't a good run.

And we are still in a situation where Crosby could get 90-100 points again this year, and probably will. I'm sorry, the guy has simply had a better career than Ovechkin.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Then we go post-2010 and the shift happens.
Crosby - 1090 points in 901 games for a PPG of 1.21
Ovechkin - 1021 points in 1030 games for a PPG of 0.99

Damn man, that is some separation there. What is it you think that Ovechkin did to make up for a 0.22 PPG deficit over 14 seasons?

Flipped another way, a 69 point gap over 14 seasons, which comes out to about 5 points per season, when the one continued to rack up goal scoring crowns, with both having 1 Hart, doesn't really match the popular narrative of Crosby total dusting Ovechkin in post-2010 career, but of course that gets us back into the how many flowers to give for missed time.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Always wondered how different the perceptions/rankings of Crosby and Ovechkin would be if their nationalities were reversed

 

[The Panther]

Checked out of this thread for a bit but we're there really Lemieux comparisons? That's just a little silly.

If you actually read it, I wasn't comparing Ovechkin to Lemieux overall (neither Crosby nor Ovechkin can sniff Lemieux's jock-strap).

I was comparing the overall impact of Ovechkin's first 5 seasons with Lemieux's first 5 seasons. (The point of this is just to re-iterate how great Ovechkin's first 5 seasons were.) Some stats for interest's sake:

Lemieux's first 5 seasons:
-- Goals: 1, 1, 3, 7, 13
-- Assists: 1, 2, 2, 14, 16
-- Points: 1, 1, 2, 3, 13
-- ES Points: 1, 2, 4, 5, 12
-- Hart: 1, 2, 2, 4, --
-- All-Star (C): 1, 1, 2, 2, --
-- appeared in 368 out of 400 games (92%)

Ovechkin's first 5 seasons:
-- Goals: 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
-- Assists: 6, 10, 20, 29, 39
-- Points: 1, 2, 2, 3, 13
-- ES Points: 1, 2, 2, 11, 13
-- Hart: 1, 1, 2, 6, 22
-- All-Star (LW): 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
-- appeared in 396 out of 410 games (97%)

Lemieux, as a center, gets more assists and no doubt was the superior passer / playmaker. Otherwise, it's very close.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

If you actually read it, I wasn't comparing Ovechkin to Lemieux overall (neither Crosby nor Ovechkin can sniff Lemieux's jock-strap).

I was comparing the overall impact of Ovechkin's first 5 seasons with Lemieux's first 5 seasons. (The point of this is just to re-iterate how great Ovechkin's first 5 seasons were.) Some stats for interest's sake:

Lemieux's first 5 seasons:
-- Goals: 1, 1, 3, 7, 13
-- Assists: 1, 2, 2, 14, 16
-- Points: 1, 1, 2, 3, 13
-- ES Points: 1, 2, 4, 5, 12
-- Hart: 1, 2, 2, 4, --
-- All-Star (C): 1, 1, 2, 2, --
-- appeared in 368 out of 400 games (92%)

Ovechkin's first 5 seasons:
-- Goals: 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
-- Assists: 6, 10, 20, 29, 39
-- Points: 1, 2, 2, 3, 13
-- ES Points: 1, 2, 2, 11, 13
-- Hart: 1, 1, 2, 6, 22
-- All-Star (LW): 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
-- appeared in 396 out of 410 games (97%)

Lemieux, as a center, gets more assists and no doubt was the superior passer / playmaker. Otherwise, it's very close.

The fact that their is an 199 point season in the span of this comparison makes it ainec. By the way remove a peak/prime gretzky and its
3 harts
3 art ross
2 richards
2 pearsons
With a 199 point season as the crowning jewel

 

[Professor What]

Always wondered how different the perceptions/rankings of Crosby and Ovechkin would be if their nationalities were reversed

Around this board, Crosby would still be the one seen as having the slightly better career, but the media would be hyping Ovechkin, especially since he's the more exciting personality.

 

[daver]

Always wondered how different the perceptions/rankings of Crosby and Ovechkin would be if their nationalities were reversed

Why? There were lots of opportunities for biases in voters' minds to sway a close, subjective award. Ovechkin won a Hart (2013), a higher Hart placing (2010 and 2015) and a Lindsay (2010) over Crosby.

I have always wondered whether Ovechkin winning the battle of the aesthetics over Crosby's more cerebral game overrated him at his peak. Crosby was just as productive offensively with inferior linemates and without having to almost completely disregard defensive contributions. I don't blame a coach giving OV the greenlight to max out his offense like Jagr and Mario but that needs to be recognized.

 

[daver]

If you actually read it, I wasn't comparing Ovechkin to Lemieux overall (neither Crosby nor Ovechkin can sniff Lemieux's jock-strap).

I was comparing the overall impact of Ovechkin's first 5 seasons with Lemieux's first 5 seasons. (The point of this is just to re-iterate how great Ovechkin's first 5 seasons were.) Some stats for interest's sake:

Lemieux's first 5 seasons:
-- Goals: 1, 1, 3, 7, 13
-- Assists: 1, 2, 2, 14, 16
-- Points: 1, 1, 2, 3, 13
-- ES Points: 1, 2, 4, 5, 12
-- Hart: 1, 2, 2, 4, --
-- All-Star (C): 1, 1, 2, 2, --
-- appeared in 368 out of 400 games (92%)

Ovechkin's first 5 seasons:
-- Goals: 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
-- Assists: 6, 10, 20, 29, 39
-- Points: 1, 2, 2, 3, 13
-- ES Points: 1, 2, 2, 11, 13
-- Hart: 1, 1, 2, 6, 22
-- All-Star (LW): 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
-- appeared in 396 out of 410 games (97%)

Lemieux, as a center, gets more assists and no doubt was the superior passer / playmaker. Otherwise, it's very close.

Rating their best seasons:

1. Mario 88/89
2. Mario 87/88

(clear gap)

5. Mario 85/86, OV 07/08, OV 09/10

No, not close.

Lemieux, as a center, gets more assists and no doubt was the superior passer / playmaker. Otherwise, it's very close.

Interesting, I guess Kucherov gets some bonus points as he is a winger. Maybe his 23/24 season is better than McDavid's 22/23 season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

And do you think that is not the case for Mario when he was winning cup because Jagr existed ? Or Wayne because of Messier ? Stastny because of Goulet ? (Or Jagr when Mario was not there), that the norm for the best player in the league.

Right.

No, I don't think it would happen in those cases.

But there are numerous all-time greats for which it would frequently happen, such as Crosby, Malkin, McDavid, Draisaitl, Bobby Hull, Sakic, Forsberg, Beliveau, Richard, Jagr, Messier, Mikita, Esposito, etc. Each of those players benefitted greatly from having another all-time great on their team.

Take Crosby for example. Most teams are not pulling their 1D or shutdown line just because it was Evgeny Malkin taking an offensive zone draw. This benefits both players by affording better match-ups.

Not so for Ovechkin. There has never been a time in his career where that was the case. The top pair is almost always glued to him.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Why? There were lots of opportunities for biases in voters' minds to sway a close, subjective award. Ovechkin won a Hart (2013), a higher Hart placing (2010 and 2015) and a Lindsay (2010) over Crosby.

I have always wondered whether Ovechkin winning the battle of the aesthetics over Crosby's more cerebral game overrated him at his peak. Crosby was just as productive offensively.....

No he wasn't. Their PPGs were basically the same except Ovechkin had 50% more goals and more points.

Crosby has not had weak players around him since 2006. He's always had significant ice time with the 3rd best player of the generation. It's a huge advantage to have that. Crosby had Malkin. Sakic had Forsberg. Hull had Mikita. Orr had Esposito. Gretzky had Messier/Coffey. Lemieux had Jagr/Coffey. Richard had Beliveau/Harvey. Howe had Kelly/Lindsay - each of them top 50 players and it's not a coincidence how clustered these same-team players are on the lists. Ovechkin never had a top 200 player on his team.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you actually read it, I wasn't comparing Ovechkin to Lemieux overall (neither Crosby nor Ovechkin can sniff Lemieux's jock-strap).

Lemieux might be the most overrated player in hockey history. No doubt he could dazzle, but he didn't actually take the team very far - missing the playoffs in 5 of his first 6 seasons, and never having much team success without 6-8 other hall of famers.

Over the course of Lemieux's career, the Penguins had a .509 points percentage. You'd think such a vaunted player would have been able to lift a team to above average. Mario Lemieux didn't.

For Crosby that number is .612 and for Ovechkin it's .604.