Do you think Ovechkin's legacy will improve over time?

[daver]

Ovechkin may well end up as the only Top20 player in history not to have another Hall of Fame teammate over the course of his entire career (except pre-retirement Fedorov). Backstrom, Green, Oshie, and Holtby are not making it.

It is no surprise that the Caps won in '18 when they were able to ice two very good lines vs. one loaded line. Kuzy playing well allowed the Caps to finally separate OV and Backstrom; their two best offensive forwards.

The Pens were always able to separate their two best forwards because Crosby could carry a line of lower depth chart forwards and produce world class numbers (in '09) or effectively play a 2-way C role (in '16).

Ovechkin could never carry a line on his own to a point where the Caps would load up a 2nd line. He lacked the offensive versatility.

It is also no surprise that when OV clearly played a more responsible defensive game in '18, the Caps won.

 

[Midnight Judges]

It's interesting to note that not only did Crosby face the most ES minutes against Lidstrom and Zetterberg in both '08 and '09, he also faced the most against Datsyuk in both years.

The Wings were essentially treating the Pens as a one line team in both years by throwing their three world class defenders against Crosby.

Every playoff series Alex Ovechkin has ever played has had that level of focus on him.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Pens were always able to separate their two best forwards because Crosby could carry a line of lower depth chart forwards and produce world class numbers (in '09) or effectively play a 2-way C role (in '16).

Pens had Crosby and Malkin, Backstrom was OK but never Malkin-esque. I think I saw somewhere the Pens had a better record in games Crosby missed throughout his career.

I think the real key for the Pens is Malkin could carry a line with randoms at even strength. That's a gift very few teams get out of their 2nd best forward.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I would pretty comfortably take Lemieux first 5 years over Ovechkin first five years.

Goals: 1,1,4
Assists: 1, 2, 2,
Points: 1, 1, 2, 3
Hart : 1, 2, 2, 3
All-Star: 1, 1, 2, 2

All those 2s are behind prime Gretzky.

I'd take McDavid too, for whatever it's worth, but that's after 2010.

You would take McDavid's 1 Hart and 2 Pearsons over Ovechkin's 2 Harts and 3 Pearsons?

McDavid had a 4 point lead in points over second place and a 5 point lead over 3rd place, and was 8th in goals in those 5 years.

Ovechkin was 1st in points and 1st in goals by a wide margin.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin could never carry a line on his own to a point where the Caps would load up a 2nd line. He lacked the offensive versatility.

That is not accurate.

Ovechkin had no problem scoring with Halpern, Kozlov, Ribeiro, Kuznetsov or Strome.

The reason Crosby and Malkin get split at ES is that they simply aren't that good together. Crosby needs wingers who will do the defensive lifting for him, otherwise it doesn't work. That's why Kunitz was a Canadian Olympian.

 

[MadLuke]

Ribeiro, Kuznetsov

Not sure if you are talking about the same things, those are PPG near elite playmaking center and it is about how much the line score not just a player, but for sure peak Ovechkin could carry a line like few others, there is also something about how well player do together, Drai-McDavid are often paired because of just how well they produce, not because they can't without each other, LeClair scored well without Lindros, you still pair them.

get split at ES is that they simply aren't that good together. Crosby needs wingers who will do the defensive lifting for him,

Not sure on both account here, is that why Guentzel was such a good fit ? or that Malkin-Crosby were not that good together, that a post their prime phenomenon. Playing cycling hockey make the Dupuis-Kunitz particularly good for him.

Now it is often special occasion deployment (back from a break end of period need a goal, end of game need a goal), so there will be some scoring effect, but from 2008-2010

At 5v5 - 2008-2010
Malkin with/without Crosby: 62.4 GF % / 48.8 GF%
Malkin with Crosby: 4.63 goal per 60 minutes (much higher than when when he played with his most usual partner Sykora( 3.47)

Those are elite offensive output numbers
At 5v5 - 2011-2013
Malkin with/without Crosby: 70.27 GF % / 51.28 GF%
Malkin with Crosby: 6.28 goal per 60 minutes (much higher than when when he played with his most usual partner Neal (3.69))

Now everyone had crazy number when Crosby was on the ice during that stretch, but more than one goal being scored every 10 minute of play.....,

After that they virtually stopped playing together at 5v5 (42 minutes from 2017-2019) with terrible result the little they do, but not when they were in their prime and did it more, it was just too much to contain even if they were not greater than the sum of their part happening at all with them.

 

[MadLuke]

Every playoff series Alex Ovechkin has ever played has had that level of focus on him.

And do you think that is not the case for Mario when he was winning cup because Jagr existed ? Or Wayne because of Messier ? Stastny because of Goulet ? (Or Jagr when Mario was not there), that the norm for the best player in the league.

Unlike football-baseball, I am not sure with hockey how much you can do, if you say that Carbonneau best use of his time is trying to stop Stastny in what way a Goulet second line change things and will make it easier for Peter ?

Maybe on the margin and the other way around is obvious, it help Goulet a lot and regarding winning it is obvious how it help, but once you are the clear first line (even by just a little) in the eye of the other team there is just so much they can do in hockey which mean there is not much less they can do because of the rest of the team.

In football-basketball not being double teamed because the number 2-3 option are so good is a giant deal, in baseball the next batter meaning they cannot avoid pitching to you is big, but in hockey ?

A rare case that 1A-1B was close enough and not all team put their best defensive players against the same line could be Forsberg-Sakic, I am not sure if Chelios always faced the same every series.