Do You Consider Ovechkin Generational?

[KoozNetsOff 92]

If Malkin is on the 2nd line that would mean Ovechkin would be with... Sheahan. Yeah I don't foresee it being a success.

Also peak Crosby, before the Steckel hit was the most dominant player I've ever watched. Yes that includes Lemieux.

Maybe not the last couple of years but in 2009? Replacing Crosby with a better player isn't going to have a negative effect.

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

Maybe not the last couple of years but in 2009? Replacing Crosby with a better player isn't going to have a negative effect.

Of course not. But that "better player" has been retired since 1999.

 

[LordNeverLose]

1) then stop trying to lump them together like "if OV is generational then so is Bossy" because OV is clearly miles ahead as an individual.

2) Bossy lost 1 GPG crown and 1 rocket to Gretzky. Give him those and it's still 7-2 and 6-3 for OV. In other words, not close.

1. I'm not. OV for sure has a better argument for being considered generational than Bossy. But a lot of the arguments I see for considering OV generational could also be made for Bossy. The fact is being a generational goal-scorer doesn't make you a generational player.

2. You aren't including the several Jari Kurri seasons that were inflated by playing with Gretzky.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think the disagreement here is simply over the term "generational." I believe OV likely retires as a top 10 forward of all time. I just don't think he reaches the Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe level that I call generational.

And while I definitely believe OV has the potential to pass Crosby if he has a better second half of his career than Sid, I believe Crosby has currently had the better career and thus consider him a better candidate for the "generational" moniker.

But Crosby still won’t reach the likes of Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux, so is he right there over the line between generation and not, while Ovechkin is borderline?

But he does have Backstrom. Not only does he got Backstrom, but he's also got Kuznetsov. Caps have been Cup favorite for like what, the past 5 years? They've been stacked for years. I'm not going to blame the shortcomings on Ovechkin because I don't think it's his fault. They've been underachieving as a group and it's never been one particular player, but to say Ovechkin's never had a good supporting group is crazy talk.

both are great players, but aren’t the caliber of player that Ovechkin is. That’s all I’m saying.

Also, Backstrom and Kuz are notorious for their play dropping significantly in the post season. Sure, Backstrom finally had a great run this past year, but that’s one after many years of not rising to the occasion. Kuz has also not had a strong showing in the playoffs. So yes, as a group they have underachieved.

I never said Ovechkin never had a great supporting cast, I’m saying he has never had a Malkin, there is a big difference. And I said that in regards to the comments about Backstrom being brought up as a player of Malkins caliber, to of course help bring a championship home.

Also I wouldn’t say they have been cup favorites the past 5 years. Maybe on paper, maybe to some analysts, but the Hawks, Kings, and then the Pens have all been in the mix way more for that conversation. I mean the Caps have lost the last 2 times(also being the last two presidents trophy winners) to the Pens, who ultimately ended up winning the cup two times. In the end they clearly were not the better team and in fact lost to the best team....twice.

 

[GreatGonzo]

1. I'm not. OV for sure has a better argument for being considered generational than Bossy. But a lot of the arguments I see for considering OV generational could also be made for Bossy. The fact is being a generational goal-scorer doesn't make you a generational player.

2. You aren't including the several Jari Kurri seasons that were inflated by playing with Gretzky.

What arguments? Potvin and Trottier were arguably better and more impactful players than Bossy, as well as Bossy not even being the best goal scorer of his era.....so what arguments are there for Bossy?

 

[LordNeverLose]

But Crosby still won’t reach the likes of Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux, so is he right there over the line between generation and not, while Ovechkin is borderline?

Crosby has been the best player of this "generation." That's my point. If you want to argue that, go ahead, but I disagree.

I'm not saying Crosby has reached Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe territory, but he is the best player of the past decade so has earned the right to be called "generational."

 

[LordNeverLose]

What arguments? Potvin and Trottier were arguably better and more impactful players than Bossy, as well as Bossy not even being the best goal scorer of his era.....so what arguments are there for Bossy?

... I've never said Bossy should be considered a generational player?

EDIT: The arguments I was referring to were about OV's goal-scoring dominance, of which the same could practically be said about Bossy (especially if you take out all Gretzky influenced numbers)

 

[FreeBobbyFarnham]

But Crosby still won’t reach the likes of Gretzky, Howe, or Lemieux, so is he right there over the line between generation and not, while Ovechkin is borderline?

both are great players, but aren’t the caliber of player that Ovechkin is. That’s all I’m saying.

Also, Backstrom and Kuz are notorious for their play dropping significantly in the post season. Sure, Backstrom finally had a great run this past year, but that’s one after many years of not rising to the occasion. Kuz has also not had a strong showing in the playoffs. So yes, as a group they have underachieved.

I never said Ovechkin never had a great supporting cast, I’m saying he has never had a Malkin, there is a big difference. And I said that in regards to the comments about Backstrom being brought up as a player of Malkins caliber, to of course help bring a championship home.

Also I wouldn’t say they have been cup favorites the past 5 years. Maybe on paper, maybe to some analysts, but the Hawks, Kings, and then the Pens have all been in the mix way more for that conversation. I mean the Caps have lost the last 2 times(also being the last two presidents trophy winners) to the Pens, who ultimately ended up winning the cup two times. In the end they clearly were not the better team and in fact lost to the best team....twice.

That's a fair assessment.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby has been the best player of this "generation." That's my point. If you want to argue that, go ahead, but I disagree.

I'm not saying Crosby has reached Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe territory, but he is the best player of the past decade so has earned the right to be called "generational."

Like I said before, Gretzky was considered the best as well, with Lemieux nipping at his heels, as well as having seasons where he was the better player.....both are considered generational. How is that not the cass for Ovechkin and Crosby?

But that’s subjective, seeing as how Crosby hasn’t even been the best player in the league for the past few years,and before that, was riddled with injuries, costing him tons of well deserved awards and fame I’m sure(2011-13)and before that, Ovechkin definitely has a legit argument for being the better player.

Crosby has not been the clear cut best player of the decade, but if he has been, it’s still been disputed between him and Ovechkin, with a Malkin close 3rd. In the end those 3 are in a class of there own, with Crosby and Ovechkin being center stage.

... I've never said Bossy should be considered a generational player?

EDIT: The arguments I was referring to were about OV's goal-scoring dominance, of which the same could practically be said about Bossy (especially if you take out all Gretzky influenced numbers)

but you can’t simply take a player away and then go from there. Ovechkin has been more dominant and impactful goal scorer and player in this generation than Bossy was in his. Sure, Bossy did have the misfortune of playing in the same era as Gretzky, and he was for sure up there with him in terms of his greatness as a goal scorer, I just feel Ovechkin elevated the playing field between the two, that’s all.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Like I said before, Gretzky was considered the best as well, with Lemieux nipping at his heels, as well as having seasons where he was the better player.....both are considered generational. How is that not the cass for Ovechkin and Crosby?

But that’s subjective, seeing as how Crosby hasn’t even been the best player in the league for the past few years,and before that, was riddled with injuries, costing him tons of well deserved awards and fame I’m sure(2011-13)and before that, Ovechkin definitely has a legit argument for being the better player.

Crosby has not been the clear cut best player of the decade, but if he has been, it’s still been disputed between him and Ovechkin, with a Malkin close 3rd. In the end those 3 are in a class of there own, with Crosby and Ovechkin being center stage.

Well yeah, the whole thing is subjective. It is my OPINION Crosby is more deserving than OV. You could certainly make the argument they're on the same level and it'd by no means be a laughable argument.

but you can’t simply take a player away and then go from there. Ovechkin has been more dominant and impactful goal scorer and player in this generation than Bossy was in his. Sure, Bossy did have the misfortune of playing in the same era as Gretzky, and he was for sure up there with him in terms of his greatness as a goal scorer, I just feel Ovechkin elevated the playing field between the two, that’s all.

I think it's fair simply in the case of Gretzky since he was such a frickin' anomaly.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think it's fair simply in the case of Gretzky since he was such a frickin' anomaly.

But I mean to be fair, Lemieux still did an amazing job of making his case and building his own legacy along side Gretzky, as did Ovechkin with Crosby. Take Gretzky away, Bossy might be the best goal scorer, but still far from one of the best players. Ovechkin is still one of the best, and in certain aspects THE best player of his generation.

 

[LordNeverLose]

But I mean to be fair, Lemieux still did an amazing job of making his case and building his own legacy along side Gretzky, as did Ovechkin with Crosby. Take Gretzky away, Bossy might be the best goal scorer, but still far from one of the best players. Ovechkin is still one of the best, and in certain aspects THE best player of his generation.

Well I've never said OV isn't one of the absolute best players we've ever seen in some regards. And your point about the Crosby/OV dynamic being comparable to the 99/66 one makes sense, but I just don't think either one of the current players has had the same level of dominance.

 

[Fredrik_71]

If you take into consideration the salary cap I think Ovie is much better than being credited with. The teams are much more balanced today and it is much harder to stick out from the crowd. And he has done this on a team never winning the SC!

 

[daver]

Backstrom and Kuznetsov aren't multiple ross winning, 100+pt scoring players. Totally different class.

Also in regards to OV being on the pens instead of Crosby. Peak OV was the best player in the league and tilted the ice more than Crosby and Malkin. He could easily carry the top line and Malkin could stay in his 2C role so it doesn't change much. Yes it's fantasy to say they would've won, but I think it's incorrect to say that they would be playing together.

If we are talking regular season production, then yes. Playoffs are a different animal and OV has never showed he had the versatility to adjust his game. Crosby and Malkin produced as much as OV while carrying their lines and playing solid 2-way hockey.

 

[Iapyi]

Do you know better way to compare players from different era of hockey? Or you think modern hockey isnt way more competitive than it was before?

first, whether or not this is the case it really has no bearing whatsoever on what was being discussed.

second, i strongly suspect the competitiveness now is barely a reflection of what it once was.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If we are talking regular season production, then yes. Playoffs are a different animal and OV has never showed he had the versatility to adjust his game. Crosby and Malkin produced as much as OV while carrying their lines and playing solid 2-way hockey.

What adjustments are you referring to for Crosby and Malkin?

Enough with this whole “two way hockey” nonsense. Crosby was not a two way player, just because he can show glimpses of a solid defensive game doesn’t suddenly mean he is a stud. His status defensively has become so overrated.

The only difference between Crosby, Malkin, and Ovechkin, is that when Crosby has dropped the ball in the playoffs, he and Malkin have had a solid enough team around them to make it work, Ovi isn’t so lucky. Crosby has never had to adjust to a certain level of defensive play to help his team win, the team simply picked up more depth offensively and defensively, and that was showcased in the playoffs(Kessel, Guentzel, Bonino).

Not to mention having a guy like Malkin, who has led the Pens in 2/3 of their cup runs in points....in fact, Crosby has NEVER lead any of his cup winning teams in offense. That’s how good those teams are, that the so called best player of his generation doesn’t even have to lease the charge offensively.

Ovechkin has lead his team in the post season 6/9 times, the last being 2016 where he actually out played Crosby AND Malkin, and trust me, they didn’t win that series because of their defensive skills.

 

[TNT87]

Of course.

 

[karnige]

I think so. I dont think hes as dominate as sid which is the issue.

 

[Varan]

All players you named are centers. They can't be not 2 way, its their responsability. Basically you said that these players are better because they are centers. Would they be as good in winger position? I doubt. Therefore its silly to accuse Ovy to not being 2-way center.

Here is information from wiki about how wingers should play in defense. Most of the time they are "one dimensionnal"

Defensive zone play


Typical winger positioning in the defensive zone.
The wingers' responsibilities in the defensive zone include the following:

• getting open for a pass from their teammates
• intercepting a pass to the opposing defenceman
• attacking the opposing defencemen when they have the puck

Wingers should typically not:

• play deep in their defensive zone
• help out their teammates along the boards

great post

 

[Varan]

I think the disagreement here is simply over the term "generational." I believe OV likely retires as a top 10 forward of all time. I just don't think he reaches the Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe level that I call generational.

And while I definitely believe OV has the potential to pass Crosby if he has a better second half of his career than Sid, I believe Crosby has currently had the better career and thus consider him a better candidate for the "generational" moniker.

I agree 100000%

 

[Devils090]

As a goal scorer? yes

As an overall player? No

 

[Zuluss]

I think so. I dont think hes as dominate as sid which is the issue.

I think you are conflating dominance and longevity.

Ovechkin's 3 best leads over the 10th place in points, in %
29-27-25
Crosby's 3 best leads over the 10th place in points, in %
32-27-26

Ovechkin's leads over the 10th place in goals, from the same seasons, in %
63-44-43
Crosby's leads over the 10th place in goals, from the same seasons, in %
6-46

Add to that the fact that Oveckin's best seasons were back-to-back-to-back (2007-2010), while Crosby's best seasons are scattered around a decade (06/07, 09/10, 13/14), and that Ovechkin has been as dominant as ever in the goal-scoring race just recently, and Ovechkin is clearly ahead in terms of dominance.

The number of top3/top5 finishes in points is another matter, and should be filed under longevity/consistency.

 

[Dondini]

Wait 50 years when the game hasn't evolved 2% as much as the last 50 years, and when you see how literally no one has done anything close to ovechkin you will then realize he was generational.

Guy that is 200ish goals away from 800 at age 32. Pfff give me a break that's ridiculous.

I for one am a bigger crosby fan but unlike most immature adults I'm a fan of both. Ovy and Crosby, are both generational, will be very tough for anyone to be as good as them in the next few decades.

 

[kmart]

The fact is being a generational goal-scorer doesn't make you a generational player.

every term that has anything to do with generational has nothing in common with facts... if u say for example, ovys goalscoring is generational but the rest of his game isnt... i could say since u seemed to agree on ovys generational goal scoring benchmark... every player that scored less than ao has no generational scoring ability and thus is no generational player... but go ahead and claim ur opinions as facts.

my personal "fact" is that a player needs only one aspect of his game to be generational to get this term. crosbys ticket to generational is that he has a high overall ability in every aspect.... he can score solo goals, grinding, playmaking, defense. the complete opposite is ao, who relays only on scoring.

 

[JaeTM]

Ovechkin does not need to have a better career than Crosby to be considered generational, so the comparisons are unnecessary.

Ovechkin is absolutely a generational talent. Can't believe this is even a thread.