Dishing the Dirt

[arrbez]

Since it came up in another thread, here's a spreadsheet showing which players were missing during the War years, and when they all left:

War Years Study

 

[BM67]

You left out the NY/Brooklyn Americans. Ken Mosdell and Chuck Rayner for sure.

 

[arrbez]

Yeah, when I first made it last year I was more or less just interested in which teams lost whom during the true War Years (1944 and 1945), so I left Brooklyn out. Rayner was an omission, but I'm not sure Mosdell would have been an impact player in the 40's as his best years came a decade later. It could definitely still use some work.

 

[overpass]

Anyone who is interested in 1930s hockey should check out the extremely detailed recaps of Red Wings games from the Border Cities Star.

I've been reading them for the playoffs games, not sure if they had them in the regular season.

Here are three examples, from the 1934 Detroit vs Toronto playoff series.

March 27, March 29, March 31

Some things I learned from here:

Even strength
Shifts were about 3 or 4 minutes long for forward lines, could be shorter at times. For example, in one game both teams started their second lines, Sorrell-Goodfellow-Wiseman vs Boll-Thoms-Kilrea. First shift was about 3 minutes. Then it was Weiland, Lewis, Aurie vs Conacher, Primeau, Jackson. About 7 minutes in it was Marker-Moffat-Carrigan vs Cotton-Sands-Blair.

There was definitely line matching going on. Jackson-Primeau-Conacher was going against Lewis-Weiland-Aurie the whole series. Some quotes:

The customers were treated to a scrappy battle of speed and checking as the rival lines, Primeau, Jackson, and Conacher, and Aurie, Lewis, and Weiland fought it out in centre ice.

The Jackson-Primeau-Conacher line devoted more attention to checking than in any game this season. The recent scoring threat of the Detroit line of Weiland, Aurie, and Lewis gave them chores they hadn't been accustomed to because of their own goal activities this season. And they handled their new assignment well.

Weiland, Lewis, and Aurie were making a great job of the tough assignment of watching Jackson, Primeau, and Conacher. Not once did the sniping invaders break away from them.

Weiland, Lewis and Aurie came out to face the celebrated marksmen, Jackson, Conacher, and Primeau.

It seems that both coaches were OK with the matchup. Although at one point

Irvin and Adams were engaged in a spirited duel of wits as they changed forward lines at short intervals.

Also, in one third period it mentions that Jackson-Blair-Sands was against Carrigan-Moffatt-Aurie. The Aurie-Jackson matchup was still on - most likely one coach was trying to free up his star winger and the other kept the matchup.

For whatever reason both coaches started their second lines in every period. Starr-Goodfellow-Wiseman vs Boll-Thoms-Kilrea.

Special teams
Detroit used five forwards - their "famous five-man forward attack". Goodfellow, Sorrell, Lewis, Weiland, Aurie. At one point it mentions Goodfellow knocking a puck down at the blue line and passing it down low to Sorrell - sounds as if Goodfellow at least was playing the point. Carson also filled in for Sorrell a couple of times, as Sorrell missed a game in the series with a leg injury.

On the penalty kill, Lewis-Aurie-Buswell-Graham was the usual lineup for Detroit. Weiland and Goodfellow were also used once.

Toronto also used five forwards. Conacher, Blair, Cotton, Primeau, and Doraty. Busher Jackson was struggling with a leg injury, which may have been why he didn't see power play time, although he did jump on for Cotton at one point when the first 30 seconds of the man advantage was a "scramble". Ken Doraty wasn't part of Toronto's regular three lines. At 5'7" and 133 lbs, he may have been one of the first power play specialists.

Toronto's penalty kill was mentioned several times. These lineups were

Horner - Day - Kilrea - Cotton
Horner - Clancy - Kilrea - Cotton
Levinsky - Day - Cotton - Kilrea

and once Joe Primeau had a chance shorthanded, the others weren't listed.

Late-game strategy

Dick Irvin sent out four forwards with four minutes left to play. Primeau, Jackson, and Conacher had Sands as an additional helper. Hap Day was back on the defense. Weiland, Lewis, Aurie, Young, and Buswell were the defenders.

Cotton, Blair, Doraty, and Primeau were the forwards for Leafs with two minutes to play. Horner was the lone defenseman. With one minute to go, Kilrea replaced Horner.

 

[Dreakmur]

Found a nice article on the 1907 Stanley Cup Challenge.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...&pg=4720,2332635&dq=smith+hockey+ottawa&hl=en

There is some good stuff, including a description of the play. Hod Stuart figures priminenly in the offense, but since assists weren't recorded, nobody gets to see that in the numbers

Here's a short piece of the article. Good stuff on Alf Smith, Harry Westwick, and Hod Stuart.

SMITH KENORA STAR.

Alf Smith was the life of the Kenora team, and without him they would have been in poor shape indeed. He rushed and checked like a fiend, bumping into Hod Stuart or anyone else who blocked his path with an abandon that pleased the lusty-lunged rooters mightily. He had plenty of speed and did not spare himself. In the second half, the pace began to tell and he faded away somewhat.

Westwick, the other Ottawa man, worked like a retriever, doing the work for which the other fellows got the credit. His checking back was a feature.

....

HOD STUART’S GREAT GAME

Hod Stuart is given credit by his teammates of playing the greatest game of his life, and he certainly gave one of the finest exhibitions of defense work ever seen here. He blocked rush after rush, and inaugurated many dangerous chances. He checked hard, hit cleanly, and was never even warned, though he had much provocation. When it is considered that the big cover point played with a broken finger, his was truly a great exhibition.

 

[jarek]

It is my belief that Hod Stuart is arguably a top-150 player. Nobody will agree with me, but the guy was so far ahead of just about anyone else in his time, and he showed elite-level skills in every area of the game.

 

[Dreakmur]

It is my belief that Hod Stuart is arguably a top-150 player. Nobody will agree with me, but the guy was so far ahead of just about anyone else in his time, and he showed elite-level skills in every area of the game.

I agree with you.

I'm going down my list of defensemen, and there are only 23 guys that I can say are definately better than Stuart.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It is my belief that Hod Stuart is arguably a top-150 player. Nobody will agree with me, but the guy was so far ahead of just about anyone else in his time, and he showed elite-level skills in every area of the game.

If he's a top 150 player, then so are Russel Bowie and Tommy Phillips. Frank McGee too, depending on if you punish him for a short career.

And you are absolutely correct in my opinion that he/they are all "arguably" that good. It's just really tough to tell with guys from that era. On my top 120 list for the next HOH Top 100 project, I'm going to try to include all of them, but historical significance is more important for that list than for the ATD.

 

[Dreakmur]

If he's a top 150 player, then so are Russel Bowie and Tommy Phillips. Frank McGee too, depending on if you punish him for a short career.

Bowie for sure. Phillips and McGee maybe.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Bowie for sure. Phillips and McGee maybe.

Phillips > Stuart.

 

[Dreakmur]

Phillips > Stuart.

Phillips is getting badly over-rated. He was a good defensive player, but he didn't bring any physical play, and his offense wasn't that impressive.

He's actually very comparable to a guy like Marty Walsh.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's actually very comparable to a guy like Marty Walsh.

LOL.

Yes, let's forget every account by everyone who actually saw these players - you know, the same sources that we used to finally decide Hod Stuart was much more highly thought of than Harvey Pulford.

Because Tommy Phillips didn't run up the score as much as Dreakmur would like in the Western Leagues.

 

[Dreakmur]

LOL.

Yes, let's forget every account by everyone who actually saw these players - you know, the same sources that we used to finally decide Hod Stuart was much more highly thought of than Harvey Pulford.

Because Tommy Phillips didn't run up the score as much as Dreakmur would like in the Western Leagues.

It's always a combination of both anecdotes and stats. Much like Kharlamov, the Phillips statistics don't really measure up to the anecdotes.

 

[VanIslander]

Kerry Fraser in a May 20th 2011 TSN article tells all when asked about coaches he faced over his career:

Glen Sather was the guy with the best wit behind the bench I have ever seen. He was a master at taking the pressure off his players by keeping it loose. In 1985, the Oilers won the Stanley Cup against Mike Keenan and his Philadelphia Flyers. Toward the end the regular season, I worked the Oilers game in Chicago Stadium. The Oilers were getting trounced and the score hit double digits. Glen didn't want his team to carry a spanking of this sort with them into the playoffs. Frustration had set in and Kevin Lowe demonstrated this when he broke a stick over a Blackhawk with a couple of minutes left in the game.

After assessing the penalty, I noticed Glen and his entire team standing up on the players' bench with their sticks up confronting a Hawks fan. The last thing I wanted was to have players scale the glass and an incident with the fans. I rushed over and hollered at Glen and got his attention. Like a maestro conducting a symphony orchestra, he waved the percussion section to sit. All the players took their seats. I asked Glen if he wanted me to get some additional security over to protect his players and remove the 'obnoxious' fan?" (I just wanted the game over without having to write a report.) Glen replied, "No Kerry, everything's all right now. That @#$%* said the penalty you called against Kevin Lowe was @#$%* but we stuck up for you!" I laughed, Glen laughed but more importantly all his players laughed. The ice was broken; the embarrassment of a humiliating loss was derailed.

The coach that unloaded on me with the most foul, vile, offensive language ever was Marc Crawford. It happened when he was a rookie coach with the Quebec Nordiques late in the 1994-95 season in a game in Florida. 'Crow' won the Jack Adams Award as Coach of the Year but that night, he really ruffled my feathers and caused me to issue him a "career warning."

The frustration that Crawford felt as his team was heading in the wrong direction just prior to the playoffs erupted with a minute and a half left in the game. His Nordiques lost to Tampa 5-2 the night before and were about to go down to the Panthers by a score of 4-2 after giving up three goals in the first 10 minutes of the game on just seven shots at Jocelyn Thibault.

Rookie Peter Forsberg had just taken a penalty and Crawford waited me out at the bench before putting his players on the ice. I approached the bench knowing full well some form of verbal attack was forthcoming. I remained stoic as the Crow flew off the handle. When he was finished, I told him it was the most unprofessional dialogue I had ever heard and not one player on his bench believed what they had just heard but that he and I would save it for another day. What I needed from him right now was to put four players on the ice and I needed them now, PLEASE.

As calm and professional as I remained on the outside, I was burning up on the inside. I was still fuming as I removed my skates in the dressing room after the game when a knock on the door interrupted me. Opening the door, I found Crawford standing before me with his head down asking if he could apologize. I quickly invited Marc into our dressing room, shared with linesmen Ray Scapinello and Greg Devorski. I invited Marc to have a beer, which he accepted. We shared a beer and had open dialogue relative to what had taken place and the frustration he felt for the direction that his team was heading at this crucial time of the season.

I accepted Marc's sincere apology and made a pact with him before Scapinello and Devorski as my witnesses. I told Marc that I didn't hold a grudge but that I was issuing him a "career warning" which meant that if he ever swore at me again from the bench, he would immediately receive a bench penalty. Crow agreed and we shook hands to cement the deal.

About one year later at the same time of the season, the Colorado Avalanche (formerly the Nordiques) and I met up in Anaheim. Midway through the third period, I had assessed a holding penalty to Sylvain Lefebvre and then a cross-checking penalty to Craig Wolanin. Paul Kariya scored 13 seconds later to put the Ducks ahead by a score of 2-1. From the Colorado bench, I heard the distinctive high-pitched voice of Marc Crawford yell, "Kerry, what the fuh-." Those were the only syllables he got out of his mouth as I wheeled around and signaled a bench minor. Crow just hung his head knowing that a deal was a deal.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=366369

 

[jarek]

Kerry Fraser's column is showing surprisingly decent insight into some recent history:

Stephen Anderson in Oakville, I did speak to Doug Gilmour about the missed call in a telephone conversation he and I had last summer. It was most cordial, even friendly as we shared stories and different perspectives from our long careers. Doug Gilmour is a class act beyond being the tremendous player, captain and leader that he was throughout his career. Doug understands that plays are missed and mistakes are made by officials and players alike. In that conversation, 'Killer' shared something I have seen him state publicly in the past. Doug said, "Give me Game 7 back in my home building and I'd take it any time. We just didn't get it done."

 

[Dreakmur]

Found a pretty funny article on Pat Egan. It's an interview with Egan where his asked if he hates everybody, kills babies, and he's told he plays hockey like he wants to dunk everybody in a pool of blood

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...YkNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3565,2080716&dq=pat+egan&hl=en

 

[Dreakmur]

Since being knocked out, I've done some digging on my good buddy Pat Egan.

From what I've found, he was an extremely gifted athlete. In adition to being a great hockey player, he was a star lacrosse player and a home run king in baseball.

As a hockey player he was supremly talented. Very few players combined toughness and skill as well as Egan did. He was viewed as the next Eddie Shore, but obviously never lived up to that.

I found more articles talking about him being solid defensively, but I also found some articles that mentioned him being prone to bad decisions. From that, I get the idea that he was a guy who was similar to Bryan McCabe - he plays solidly most of the time, but you never know when the brain is going to shut off.

I found articles that specifically said his high PIM totals cost him placements on All-Star teams.


Here is what I was able to dig up:

He was voted Boston's "most oustanding player on home ice" in 1949. (Dufresne Trophy)

I don’t hate everybody, just opposing hockey players.

We can sure use him. The big boy will fit in anywhere in our defense.

He’s a fiery type. If we can cool him out just a bit, he’s going to be a great defenseman.

I’ve always thought Pat Egan should play in Boston. Now he is here. He gives us the hardest hitting defense in the league

Well you take a look at that kid tonight and see if I’m not right. He’s one of those solidly-built fellows whom is almost impossible to knock of their feet. On top of that he’s a good skater, a real bodychecker and blocker and he can carry the puck well. May lack a little finesse in close, but that’ll come.

Then too, the kid is cocky. He has that little cockiness which most of the real great hockey players have had and he’s more or less convinced that there never was a defenseman like Pat Egan. Okay. Let him think it if he plays up to his thoughts.

As for an explanation of his color, that’d be pretty hard to give. All I know is he seems to have a knack of getting the crowd going every move he makes. You remember how they used to boo Shore in towns outside of Boston, and Horner when Toronto was playing away. That’s what they’re doing to Egan right now.

I thought my hand was blown off for a minute. Egan puts a lot of spin on that puck.

Center Glen Vickers went out of action with a broken arm after a collision with Seattle “bad man”, Pat Egan, in the third period.

Erwin Frew and Pat Egan mixed in a fight the latter had been inviting all evening.

Pat Egan, the Nelson B.C. puck-chaser, who also will receive high marks from examiner Dutton, led defensemen in scoring with two assists to his credit. Pat played rugged hockey in every period and was a tough man to evade on defense.

The boys were carrying their sticks pretty high last night and bumping each other rather hard and it was a rugged contest all the way. Pat Egan, the rough and tumble actor from Nelson, was particularly crude in his checking…

Pat Egan, who is to get a try with Lester Patrick’s hockey squad, is a husky athlete who is hard to stop when he decides to bowl over the opposition. He picked off two nice goals.

Seattle have a real hockey player in Pat Egan. He captured the admiration of such hockey oldsters as Si Griffis and Cyclone Taylor last night and those are two gentlemen who can spot a valuable piece of hockey ivory when they see one.

…Seahawks will be without their notorious Pat Egan, league badman.

Seattle meets the Lions here tonight, which means that the league’s precocious bad man will be on show – Pat Egan. Hockey players say that Egan is just a natural collar scheme, also a “Dizzy Dean” of hockey.

Pat Egan, coast hockey’s bad man, didn’t get going. His shots were wide and he’d had orders to stay on the floor, which cramped his style.

The crowd hates Egan, aright, but the boy has color.

Pat Egan, husky defenseman of the New York Americans, is leading the N.H.L. in penalty minutes this season and seems destined to take the place of Red Horner, ex-Leaf defenseman, as the bad man of the league.

Teno went down after stopping one of Pat Egan’s sizzling portside shots with his left knee. He fell backwards into the cage and after being given first aid by Trainer Boze Bordeau slowly skated off the ice.

The never-tiring Egan passed to a young Norman Larson for a goal that gave Americans a 3-2 lead…

The only one who appears likely to succeed to the mantle of Shore and Horner was young Pat Egan, a burly customer who displayed an early an early inclination for busting skulls…

The As ganged in on the Habitants and finally, burly Pat Egan, who except for the odd sturdy body-check, was a model of decorum and also one of the Amerks, rushing powerfully and menacingly throughout, made it 2-1.

…Pat Egan was easily the outstanding American player.

Egan, a rugged gent, is a couple of inches under six feet and scales 190 pounds. He drew a number of votes in the balloting for last season’s All-Star team, and was considered one of the top in the league at his position. What probably kept him off the All-Stars was his propensity for drawing penalties.

His hard-hitting defensemen, Pat Egan, Tom Anderson, and Wilf Plett, gave Rayner good protection and hammered the Canadien forwards hard – particularly the Razzle Dazzle Line of O’Connor, Morin, and Heffernan. For once, the kids were really tied up in knots as the Amerks smothered them with fast skating and close checking.

Pat Egan showed a disposition to tangle with all and sundry and handed out some stiff checks. He and Phil Watson squared off in the second period but escaped being penalized.

Local sports writers have singled out Egan as the National League player considered to have the all-round ability to become the second Eddie Shore whose old Boston number “2” he will wear. He is 25 years old, a tremendous rusher, a good defense player and a hard checker.

Boston Bruins may had adopted a different style of play for their one-night stand in the Capital, but if this is not the case, Pat Egan stands as one of the key men for the Rossmen.

Egan can put plenty of steam on a shot and the Bruins do a great deal of maneuvering to swing Patrick into position to uncork his drive.

Art Ross has Pat Egan back, and the ‘Boxcar’s’ rushing tactics should be a great asset for the Beantowners tonight.

Bruins also have such burly defensive stars as Pat Egan, Jack Crawford, Murray Henderson, Fernie Flaman, and Ed Kryzanowski.

Egan, sometimes called “Boxcar” because of his rugged, square build and his furious rushes, sometimes makes mistakes in his headlong play but no one ever questioned the rollicking defense man’s enthusiasm or will to win.

Next more made by Messrs. Boucher and Patrick was to engineer a deal with Boston Bruins that brought them rugged Pat Egan, who is anther hard and accurate shot, but who primarily interested the Rangers bosses because he is a roughhouse character and sound defenseman.

With that the 190-pound 21 year-old Pat Egan, who knows every sliver of the penalty bench, pardons himself, steps out on to the ice, where he bruises all our light Lions, smacks a spectator and growls the whole evening.

More of the above interview… which is quite funny!
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...YkNAAAAIBAJ&pg=3565,2080716&dq=pat+egan&hl=en

Egan Touches Off Riot
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...4kNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1251,2959181&dq=pat+egan&hl=en

Egan vs. Reardon
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3RxlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7YcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4487,183493&dq=pat+egan&hl=en

 

[BM67]

A brief bio of the players of the PCHA Champion Victoria team of 1913

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jQhkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sHoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1965%2C5846316

 

[overpass]

Anyone else see Google's recent announcement that they will stop digitizing old newspapers? The existing scans will remain available, but they won't add anything new.

 

[seventieslord]

Anyone else see Google's recent announcement that they will stop digitizing old newspapers? The existing scans will remain available, but they won't add anything new.

I didn't see it, but I do now. That is really too bad. At least we have what we have...

 

[jarek]

The Philadelphia Flyers were the guests that evening and Wayne Gretzky started "falling down" very early the game and looked my way before he hit the ice to see if my arm was raised. The more Wayne dove and the crowd yelled, the more secure the whistle remained in my pocket.

With under a minute to play and the Flyers up by one goal, Wayne was in his "office" behind the goal. Pelle Lindbergh caught the puck and I whistle play stopped. Gretz, standing all alone behind the net, leaped into the air and threw his hands forward, his feet stretched out behind him, and executed a belly flop worthy of a perfect score. Bobby Clarke skated up to Wayne and said, "Get up you $%& baby."

I was on the scene and said, "Wayne, what are you doing? Nobody was within 10 feet of you." Wayne hit the boiling point and clearly had enough of me as he responded, "You wouldn't have called it anyway; you haven't called a %$* thing all night!"

I said, "You're right, and I'm going to start right now: you've got two minutes for unsportsmanlike conduct." As Wayne Gretzky stormed past me on the way to his dressing room he shouted, "Thanks! It's about $%& time you called something!"

 

[BM67]

Some articles on Paddy Moran and some others.

Jan 25, 1912 - Four Best Bets At Guarding The Net

Nov 5, 1912 - Paddy Moran Popular

Feb 23, 1927 - Le Sueur Selected For Old Time All-Stars

Feb 24, 1934 - Turning Back Hockey's Pages

Apr 7, 1961 - From His Memories Of Mayhem, Newsy Lalonde Picks Hockey's All-Time Meanest, Toughest Team

 

[BM67]

The Stanley Cup Champions - 1957 Montreal Canadiens

 

[seventieslord]

LOL

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...,5176748&dq=portland+bruins+|+canadiens&hl=en

 

[seventieslord]

Really interesting article here on the relationship between managers Gorman and Dutton:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAIBAJ&pg=1432,222518&dq=earl+robertson&hl=en