Dishing the Dirt

[Leafs Forever]

Great stuff TDMM.

 

[seventieslord]

Very good stuff. It's not like those GM -voted teams (wish we could get them all) but it's interesting.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Very good stuff. It's not like those GM -voted teams (wish we could get them all) but it's interesting.

I really want to see a GM voted team from 29-30. Especially the goaltenders. I'm sure you know why. And it's only half self-serving.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't know where else to put this, so here goes - In case anyone with an SIHR membership hasn't noticed, I pulled some strings over there (literally) and got the functionality added to see the full leaderboards for international tournaments. Previously you had to check each team individually, not anymore.

Plus, for events with multiple pools you can choose to see the whole tournament list, or just the list for the pool you're researching (assumedly, A)

just another reason to have an SIHR membership. Their database for international stats was already the best out there.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

An intresting post I found about Rogie Vachon

1974-75 Hart:

1. B. Clarke 127
2. R. Vachon 113
3. B. Orr 73
4. B. Parent 54
5. G. Lafleur 43
6. Undrafted 20
7. D. Potvin 16
8. M. Dionne 12

Vachon very nearly becomes the only goalie from the 70s to win MVP honours; he had a save percentage of .926- that would be a great mark even in today`s era, back then it was even more impressive.

 

[nik jr]

you can find most of vachon's sv% stats here:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=698806

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

An intresting post I found about Rogie Vachon

1974-75 Hart:

1. B. Clarke 127
2. R. Vachon 113
3. B. Orr 73
4. B. Parent 54
5. G. Lafleur 43
6. Undrafted 20
7. D. Potvin 16
8. M. Dionne 12

Vachon very nearly becomes the only goalie from the 70s to win MVP honours; he had a save percentage of .926- that would be a great mark even in today`s era, back then it was even more impressive.

Even more interesting, Bobby Orr won the Art Ross as a defenseman that year, but finished a distant 3rd in Hart voting.

 

[vecens24]

Even more interesting, Bobby Orr won the Art Ross as a defenseman that year, but finished a distant 3rd in Hart voting.

Probably due to the fact that the Bruins finished a distant 4th in their conference that season, but the Flyers ran away with their conference by almost 20 points.

Also, Espo led the league in Goals and was second in points that season. Orr was certainly helping him more than Espo was helping Orr, but still.

I think the more intereting fact ist hat while Vachon came in second in the Hart by such a slim margin, he lost the Vezina to Parent.

 

[seventieslord]

I wish I was alive back then so I could better understand how/why Bobby Orr didn't take 6 straight Harts from 1970-1975.

 

[JFA87-66-99]

Even more interesting, Bobby Orr won the Art Ross as a defenseman that year, but finished a distant 3rd in Hart voting.

Yes this is baffling. I understand the bruins finished in 4th place or something like that, but you have a defensemen winning the Art Ross. Thats insane enough

 

[JFA87-66-99]

I wish I was alive back then so I could better understand how/why Bobby Orr didn't take 6 straight Harts from 1970-1975.

Me too. It must have been amazing to watch Bobby Orr playing in his prime. In Jean Beliveau's book "My life in hockey" it says the Bruins actually wanted him to play in the NHL at 16 years old. They thought he was good enough already but Bobby Orr's parents were obviously against that.

 

[seventieslord]

I've read in two different books now, about the time Bobby Orr told a Capitals defenseman where to line up, AFTER that defenseman's centerman had already told him to lineup somewhere else - and the kid listened to Bobby. It wouldn't be hard to find it again.

is that worth posting, or is that common knowledge by now?

(on another note, I'd like to get Orr someday. I said I'd find it uninteresting to do bios on a player that good and well-known, but I was mistaken. When looking up Bucyk quotes, I'm seeing great stuff on Orr, stuff that should be posted. An Orr bio would be a great experience in that I could ignore 90% of the basic crap that I find, and just post the GOLD)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yes this is baffling. I understand the bruins finished in 4th place or something like that, but you have a defensemen winning the Art Ross. Thats insane enough

The writers obviously blamed Orr partially for the Bruins badly underperforming, right or wrong.

Did his defensive game slip just a tiny bit that season? I noticed that he tied for 1st for "best defensive defenseman" in 1970, but didn't show up for that category in any of the later 1970s polls that we have.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I've read in two different books now, about the time Bobby Orr told a Capitals defenseman where to line up, AFTER that defenseman's centerman had already told him to lineup somewhere else - and the kid listened to Bobby. It wouldn't be hard to find it again.

is that worth posting, or is that common knowledge by now?

(on another note, I'd like to get Orr someday. I said I'd find it uninteresting to do bios on a player that good and well-known, but I was mistaken. When looking up Bucyk quotes, I'm seeing great stuff on Orr, stuff that should be posted. An Orr bio would be a great experience in that I could ignore 90% of the basic crap that I find, and just post the GOLD)

I'm all for you getting the first selection next draft! He played so few years in the NHL, compared to the other All-Time great, that you could do an detail year-by-year analysm on him. It would be extremely interesting.

And I would like to read that quote you're talking about. I'm pretty sure it's not the first time I read this, but I don't think I actually read the quote. (And I would of listen to Orr too!)

 

[seventieslord]

Now this is what I call "Dishing the Dirt"!

From "The Picture History of the Bruins" by Harry Sinden:

"What I remember most is my backchecking against Neil Colville in the 1939 Rangers playoffs. Colville broke away and I was the only one back - nobody believes me because I wasn't used to being a backchecker - but I was the only one there, and I chased Colville, yelling at him all the time. I didn't know what to do, not being a good checker.

"When Art Ross and Cooney, sitting next to eachother, saw Colville going in alone on Brimsek and me alone there with him, they ducked under the boards, expecting the worst, and in the excitement banged their heads together. He pulled Brimsek out of the goal but shot wide and missed.

"This was only the second time I had ever backchecked, and we won that game on a Mel Hill goal.

"The other time I backchecked was in a game with the Montreal Maroons. Two Montreal players, Baldy Northcott and Lionel Conacher, raced in on Tiny Thompson in goal. I was the closest to them. Tiny shouted for me to take Northcott and he would handle Conacher, who had the puck. Conacher shot and didn't score.

"I had a 100% record: two backchecks in my career, and no goals scored."

- Bill Cowley

 

[seventieslord]

At 6'2" and 195 pounds, (Charlie) Conacher was a giant at a time when the average NHL size was six inches and 40 pounds less. He was also enormously well-endowed, and teammates swore that his penis hung 14 inches - in repose. Conacher's teammates never tired of joking about his size, and would bring visitors to the dressing room for a pre-game view. When a teammate brought in a prriest to witness Conacher's miracle, he had finally heard enough and chased them out by breaking the second commandment."

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

That is the most amazingly messed up story ever.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I love some of the old newspaper quotes. While scouring for more info on Cook and Duncan (Well, more-so Cook, I have two and a half pages on Duncan.) I found these great descriptions in a Vancouver Sun Millionaires v Metropolitans game report:

Hap Holmes:

Happy Holmes was in grand fettle, flicking the wicked rubber away as nonchalantly as Rudolph Valentine flicks the ashes off a Shiek's cigarette.

Hugh Lehman:

As a contrast to this Hughie Lehman was dancing around like a mad magician putting on his stuff at a Maharajah's birthday party.

Mickey Mackay:

"Mickey" Mackay was as agile as a kitten with a catnip ball.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Aparantly in the 1922 season, when the Millionaires were having injury problems, the solution was to have the players visit Dr. Crapo.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Decided this bit wasn't bio worthy...

My second impression is that Canada has the knack of breeding a peculiar race of men, each man having grown one arm reaching to the ground. The aforementioned sporting editor has tried to kid me that that which I have recognized as a long arm is in reality a simple piece of spruce, a mere stick, I don't believe it. Why, d'you mean to tell me that Lloyd Cook or #######, or that chap Boucher, while moving with the speed of 40 express trains, could caress that puck so lovingly with a bit of lifeless wood? No siree!

 

[nik jr]

Now this is what I call "Dishing the Dirt"!

From "The Picture History of the Bruins" by Harry Sinden:

those are great.

i hesitate to say this, but i wonder how HHH will adjust conacher's size for the modern era.

 

[jarek]

He adjusts to 7'4, 385.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I don't think you got the joke...

 

[Sturminator]

So, now that Pit Lepine has been drafted, a little discussion on the art of the hook check, its great practitioners and its eventual disappearance from the game of hockey. We'll start with an interesting article detailing an interview with Elmer Ferguson of the Montreal Herald. From the Saskatoon Star-Phoenix: March 2, 1950:

The poke or hook check which Walker was the first to try would be of no use today, says Fergy, but it was a potent weapon in the no-forward-passing game of the time.

"Players like Walker, Frank Nighbor, Hooley Smith and Pit Lepine," says Fergy, "would coast around centre ice when the opposing team attacked, crouch to one knee, reach their stick as far as possible along the ice, and hook or poke the puck smoothly and efficiently off an opponent's stick. Timing and judgment of distance played a great part, of course, in successful operation of the play."

So we have here an old-timer who recalled many years later that the hook check would be useless in the forward-passing game, and named the greatest practitioners of the art from the early days. I think the old-timer was mistaken about the effectiveness of hook-checking in the forward passing game, however. The NHL amended the forward passing rules before the 1918-19 season to allow forward passing as well as kicking the puck in the neutral zone (the area of the ice in which the hook check was most often practiced). If the hook check were rendered ineffective by forward passing rules, this should have largely killed it, and yet Frank Nighbor went right on dominating opponents with his hook check.

Now maybe Nighbor just backed up to the blueline or behind the blueline in the execution of the hook check, as forward passing was still not allowed in the attacking zone? That's one possible argument, but it appears to be false in light of other evidence. The NHL further amended forward passing and puck-kicking rules before the 1929-30 season, and introduced the offside rule midseason after the chaos of the winter of 1929. So, by 30-31, we have a game that greatly resembles the modern game, and yet the hook-check remained an effective tool to those who had mastered it.

This is where Pit Lepine and Hooley Smith enter the picture. Both men played the majority of their careers after the 29-30 rules change, and built great reputations as the late masters of the hook check. Did the hook check go out of their games after the rules change? It does not appear so. Here is an article from The Calgary Daily Herald - January 7, 1932:

Not only are the real masters of the hookcheck passing from hockey but there are some critics who think that it should be abolished altogether from the game. While it may be one of the most devastating weapons for breaking up scoring plays yet, in the opinion of one writer, "it contributes to much centre-ice play which is far from entertaining for the spectator."

The point seems to be that long arms and longer sticks, rather than hockey intelligence and ability, are requisites for its success. Don't confuse the poke check with the hook check. The poke-check can be used effectively only against the puck carrier. The ice-sweeping hook check, first mastered by Frank "Dutch" Nighbor, present manager of the Buffalo Bisons, is a wide swing which often attains a radius of 18 feet. It harasses not only the puck carrier, but the wing men who may be in a position to receive a pass.

The hook check has been made of late years by players on their knees. It rather tends to slow up the game. Nighbor is though (sic) as an active player, so is Jack Walker who is credited with its invention. "Hooley" Smith is adept at the sweeping check, but the best in the business today is "Pit" Lepine of the Canadiens. When he sets himself out to play a straight defensive game, Lepine is almost impossible to pass.

The above is probably the best breakdown of the poke and hook check that I am aware of, and is, in and of itself, of considerable historical interest. Note the date: January 1932 - two seasons after the rule change allowing forward passing in all zones of the ice. The forward pass doesn't seem to have killed the hook check, at all, but rather, as the author notes at the beginning of the article, a "passing of the real masters" out of the game seems to have ultimately rendered the tactic extinct.

It is also clearly not the case that hook-checking involved no hockey intelligence, as is obliquely argued in the above, as the number of players who actually mastered its use was actually very small. Given how effective the hook-check was, we can only assume that everyone would have used it if it was easy to perform, but it was actually a rarity in the sport. The poke check seems to have been much more widely used, but the effective practice of the hook check was actually restricted to a very narrow group of players. Nighbor was the grand master of the art, and after him Jack Walker and Pit Lepine seem to have been the next great practitioners. Hooley Smith seems to have been a step down from their level, but also great, and at the bottom rung of players who used the hook-check regularly and effectively stand Frank Boucher and Aurele Joliat. There are others who used it occasionally, including Howie Morenz, but if there are others who made it a large component of their game, I don't know of them. With the exception of Lepine (and he was restricted by playing behind Morenz), all of the above were stars.

The hook-check seems to have been both difficult to execute and impervious to the forward pass, in any zone of the ice. It seems to have been a rare tool employed by a few star players and not passed down beyond the second generation. More on this later.

 

[Sturminator]

Here is a very interesting article written by Pit "Pete" Lepine, himself, about the art of the poke check. We should note that the poke and hook check were often mixed up lexically by commentators at the time, even by Lepine, himself, and the article below is almost certainly addressing the hook-check, which was much rarer than the fairly common poke-check, which is still used today. From the Providence News - February 24, 1928:

The art of poke-checking, which has brought hockey fame to Frank Neighbor (sic) of the Ottawa Senators, and which he has perfected to the highest degree of excellence, in becoming of more pronounced value as time marks progress in the game and new rules add more science over the action. All hockey players are not good poke-checkers. It is a fact that a great many of the stars in big-time hockey lack a good check of this kind but there is a noticeable improvement through the ranks in the past few years. More attention is being paid to this qualification of the game, and the players are practicing it and making every effort to develop their play along this line...

Hooley Smith has an effective poke-check and he is going to add great strength to the Maroon front line on this ability alone. Frank Boucher, of the New York Rangers, is a young player that has developed a poke-check, and as he is improving with experience he will probably become one of the stars at this sort of play.

Last season Howie Morenz started to use a poke-check and at the close of the year he was getting very effective...

Aurel Joliat does considerable poke-checking, but it is not of the reaching kind. Aurel is tricky and deceiving as he skates and he finds his opportunities through outguessing his opponent...

Editor's Note: Pete Lepine ranks with the most powerful centers in big-time hockey. Defensively Lepine is the last word in hockey class.

So there is Lepine's own testimony on the subject. Note that what Joliat was doing sounds more like an advanced version of the standard poke-check than a true hook check, but as Lepine throws them all into the same basket, it is a little hard to sort out which technique was used by whom.

Also of great interest in tracing the lineage of the hook check is tracing how the skill was handed down from one player and one generation to the next. Jack Walker is said to have invented the hook-check, and Frank Nighbor to have perfected it. Walker and Nighbor's paths actually crossed professionally for a couple of seasons. They played together for Port Arthur Lake City of the NOHL in 1911-12, and Walker seems to have suffered a serious injury that season. He only played two games that year, was out of hockey, altogether in 1912-13 and would only play two regular season games in 1913-14 for the Toronto Blueshirts of the NHA. Walker was four years Nighbor's senior and would have had a lot of time on his hands throughout his recovery. We should note that Nighbor played for the Toronto Blueshirts in 1912-13, the year Jack Walker missed. It is quite possible that the Blueshirts had Walker's contract in 1912-13, although he was unable to play. If this is true, then Walker and Nighbor spent two seasons together as teammates. It seems quite likely that Nighbor learned the art of the hook-check at this time.

Smith played with Nighbor in Ottawa and learned hook-checking directly from the master, and Joliat played with Lepine in Montreal. Where Boucher and Lepine learned it is still a mystery to me. The rest of what I have is material specifically involving Hooley Smith and the Montreal Maroons, in general - specifically Babe Siebert. More to come.