Dirtiest player: Bobby Clarke or Mark Messier?

[BenchBrawl]

The Messier hit I mentioned:

Greeeeat hit. The sound was awesome.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't understand the thought process/spirit in many of the replies here.

OP's asking who was most consistently dirty, nothing else. Not who had the best fighting skills. Not who hid the most behind his teammates. Not who had the biggest/smallest cojones. Not who was most faithful to the sacred spirit of the honorable founder and upholder of noble and gentlemanly ice hockey related codes Sir Shawn Thornton, et cetera.

Bryan Marchment fought a lot. I have no idea how the fact that Bryan Marchment fought a lot is supposed to negate any of the dirtiness he displayed.

Does someone get less concussed or does someone's knee get less injured just because a fight between two players happens after the fact?

Good post.

I would therefore call it a tie.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Greeeeat hit. The sound was awesome.

Five seconds left in the period.

 

[psycat]

I don't like Messier but Clarke belongs in jail, absolutley disgusting player(also quite overrated).

 

[RorschachWJK]

In nature, I'd suppose that a Wolverine is every bit as filthy as a Rat. I remember seeing somewhere an anecdote (true? I don't know) that a Wolverine will wizz on food that it's finished eating- to deny other lifeforms the opportunity to consume the stuff. That's competitive. And filthy as ****.

One Wolverine, One Rat. Now, the Rat is a freaking successful rodent (perhaps the most successful one that ever evolved). Still, most of us respect the Wolverine more than we respect the Rat.

Gimme the cousin of Wolwerine, the Honey Badger, any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Those guys would attack a god and do it solo if that suited their mood

 

[RorschachWJK]

Gimme the cousin of Wolwerine, the Honey Badger, any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Those guys would attack a god and do it solo if that suited their mood :-D

Meanwhile, I have hard time here choosing between Messier or Clarke. Both are disgusting characters.

 

[Sentinel]

Meanwhile, I have hard time here choosing between Messier or Clarke. Both are disgusting characters.

That would be my answer.

 

[quoipourquoi]

The Messier hit I mentioned:

Love that hit. And he immediately ties up the next player in front to give Huddy a lane towards the net.

Five seconds left in a period, all I think about is which flavor Gatorade do I have in my bag.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Messier was intuitively aware of the impact a late-period play can have on the psychology—be it a goal, a fight or a hit. He was a true hockey player. Crafty in his intangibles.

Your teammate throws a hit like that with 5 seconds left and it revigorates you. It shows that we mean business for the next period. Then the opponent have 20 minutes sitting in a room, thinking about the hit without being able to immediately retaliate. Makes them uneasy.

 

[scott clam]

Clarke was(is) a b!tch. Messier was reckless, and probably came closer to actually killing someone.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Meanwhile, I have hard time here choosing between Messier or Clarke. Both are disgusting characters.

Agreed.. respect their hockey skills, but can't stand the behaviour of either one of them

 

[The Panther]

Messier had a short-fuse that could blow at any time. And the high elbows in collisions, which could be dangerous. But here are some things to consider about him:
-- he never hit anybody after a whistle or after a goal against (stand up Dale Hunter)
-- he kept his stick down in collisions and in the corner (notable exceptions being the stick-whack on the Canucks' Gradin's head in 1984 and NYR-era swipe at Ulf Samuelsson).
-- he never targeted anybody with intent to injure (stand up Bobby Clarke)
-- he answered the bell and fought here and there, such as versus McSorley (3 times), Gary Roberts, and more.

I never considered Messier "dirty" per se. He was more just prone to suddenly explode in anger unpredictably. So, there was a fear aspect, because players never knew how he was going to act.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

As much as I do not like Clarke, I have to say Messier, who had absolutely no respect for the safety of his fellow players.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Messier had a short-fuse that could blow at any time. And the high elbows in collisions, which could be dangerous. But here are some things to consider about him:
-- he never hit anybody after a whistle or after a goal against (stand up Dale Hunter)
-- he kept his stick down in collisions and in the corner (notable exceptions being the stick-whack on the Canucks' Gradin's head in 1984 and NYR-era swipe at Ulf Samuelsson).
-- he never targeted anybody with intent to injure (stand up Bobby Clarke)
-- he answered the bell and fought here and there, such as versus McSorley (3 times), Gary Roberts, and more.

I never considered Messier "dirty" per se. He was more just prone to suddenly explode in anger unpredictably. So, there was a fear aspect, because players never knew how he was going to act.

Wow.

Not dirty per se? Never targeted anybody with intent to injure?

Kinda being a bit naïve, no?

 

[Nick Hansen]

Elbow to the face - no intention to injure? Get real.

 

[VanIslander]

The difference is...

Philly had multiple guys to fight for Clarke's transgressions.

No one wanted to fight Messier. Just as Trottier and Howe fared.

 

[JackSlater]

Wow.

Not dirty per se? Never targeted anybody with intent to injure?

Kinda being a bit naïve, no?

Intent to injure? More like intent to tickle I'd say.

 

[quoipourquoi]

As much as I do not like Clarke, I have to say Messier, who had absolutely no respect for the safety of his fellow players.

Is that fair to say? After his retirement, he helped with the design of the Cascade M11 - a helmet specifically aimed to decrease the likelihood of concussions.

Every year we become smarter about the dangers of contact sports and push for technology that can mitigate that danger and stricter punishments that can dissuade players from performing dangerous actions.

It’s fair to say that Messier and Clarke were dirty in their respective eras. It’s fair to say that in the unlikely event that they would perform the same exact way in 2020 that they did when they were active players, they would be suspended or banned. But I don’t know that it’s fair to take a 2020 mindset and apply it to video from 25-50 years ago and make an assessment on a person’s character.

Clotheslining a player at center-ice is never not dirty. But if it’s treated as a 2 minute or a 5 minute penalty rather than a multi-week suspension, then that’s creating a culture of players who do the formula Is the time served worth the message this will send? That doesn’t mean they have no respect for each other; they’re products of an environment where extreme violence was a known component.

 

[The Macho Man]

Is that fair to say? After his retirement, he helped with the design of the Cascade M11 - a helmet specifically aimed to decrease the likelihood of concussions.

Every year we become smarter about the dangers of contact sports and push for technology that can mitigate that danger and stricter punishments that can dissuade players from performing dangerous actions.

It’s fair to say that Messier and Clarke were dirty in their respective eras. It’s fair to say that in the unlikely event that they would perform the same exact way in 2020 that they did when they were active players, they would be suspended or banned. But I don’t know that it’s fair to take a 2020 mindset and apply it to video from 25-50 years ago and make an assessment on a person’s character.

Clotheslining a player at center-ice is never not dirty. But if it’s treated as a 2 minute or a 5 minute penalty rather than a multi-week suspension, then that’s creating a culture of players who do the formula Is the time served worth the message this will send? That doesn’t mean they have no respect for each other; they’re products of an environment where extreme violence was a known component.

Now I want to see a list of the "all-dirty team" adjusted for era.

I think we have Clarke at C, and we'll move Messier to LW. Cleghorn and Shore on Defense? Hextall in net. Who is our RW?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I never considered Messier "dirty" per se. He was more just prone to suddenly explode in anger unpredictably. So, there was a fear aspect, because players never knew how he was going to act.

You gotta be kidding me. Flying elbows off the top turnbuckle and running people from behind into the boards but he had no intent to injure?

He was a bully who primarily laid the elbow into players that were smaller and/or finesse players, and for some reason that escapes me, rarely had to truly answer the bell for it.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Now I want to see a list of the "all-dirty team" adjusted for era.

I think we have Clarke at C, and we'll move Messier to LW. Cleghorn and Shore on Defense? Hextall in net. Who is our RW?

We could do Claude Lemieux and bolster our Stanley Cup odds.

 

[The Macho Man]

We could do Claude Lemieux and bolster our Stanley Cup odds.

Richard did attack a Linesman.

 

[Eisen]

I'm not trying to take either side but Clarke didn't have to fight. Would you want your top player in the box or have someone else fight instead? Even today teams have players that will fight for the star.

Messier was a star and he did it. These were different times.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Richard did attack a Linesman.

Punched a linesman, after the liney held him back during a scrum which gave an opposing player a free shot.

Even the linesman would tell you he wasnt doing his job correctly in that situation

 

[The Macho Man]

Punched a linesman, after the liney held him back during a scrum which gave an opposing player a free shot.

Even the linesman would tell you he wasnt doing his job correctly in that situation

Have you ever seen an NHL scrum? Someone always gets a free shot.

Ultimately I was being glib about including the Rocket, but generally - the whole idea that Richard was some angel that dint do nuffin is absurd. He had five seasons over 100 pims, led the league in pims one season, and was generally accruing a lot of them until he got older.