Dirtiest player: Bobby Clarke or Mark Messier?

[Legionnaire11]

Leach was a decent enough player, but Barber and MacLeish. The defensemen weren't Bobby Orr, but they were highly effective in their own end along with Parent and Taylor backstopping them.

 

[billybudd]

Depends what we mean by dirty, I guess. I agree with the point about Clarke hiding behind Schultz or Kelly (or whomever), which is a thing Messier didn't do, but Messier was often out there trying to cripple or maim people. Clarke had a few such incidents, but I don't think as many as Messier did.

I didn't see it on the first few pages (which underscores just how often this stuff happened with Messier that something like this wouldn't be the first thing to come up), but the hit on Mike Hough was something a murderer would do. At the time, I thought Hough was crippled or dead. And the hit was completely pre-meditated and intentional, not a reaction play.

 

[billybudd]

Messier
-- he never targeted anybody with intent to injure (stand up Bobby Clarke)

Yeah, that's not right at all. The elbow on Modano, the board on Hough and a half-dozen stick fights or stick swinging incidents all constitute intentional targeting for the purpose of causing an injury (or worse), and I'm leaving out probably another 2 dozen incidents.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, that's not right at all. The elbow on Modano, the board on Hough and a half-dozen stick fights or stick swinging incidents all constitute intentional targeting for the purpose of causing an injury (or worse), and I'm leaving out probably another 2 dozen incidents.

Key word in my quote being "targeted". The Modano elbow-to-the-head kind of thing was more typical of Messier -- a sudden impact, an unconscious reaction, and... Whammo!

By "targeted", I mean when a player skates around the ice with the intent to injure another player, and there has been no prior contact between them. I never saw Messier do that. We know Clarke did it at least twice.

Not saying Messier was an angel, obviously, but there are degrees of dirty.

 

[scott clam]

Depends what we mean by dirty, I guess. I agree with the point about Clarke hiding behind Schultz or Kelly (or whomever), which is a thing Messier didn't do, but Messier was often out there trying to cripple or maim people. Clarke had a few such incidents, but I don't think as many as Messier did.

I didn't see it on the first few pages (which underscores just how often this stuff happened with Messier that something like this wouldn't be the first thing to come up), but the hit on Mike Hough was something a murderer would do. At the time, I thought Hough was crippled or dead. And the hit was completely pre-meditated and intentional, not a reaction play.

That's the clip I was looking for. That's as brutal and deliberate a cheapshot as there's ever been.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Key word in my quote being "targeted". The Modano elbow-to-the-head kind of thing was more typical of Messier -- a sudden impact, an unconscious reaction, and... Whammo!

By "targeted", I mean when a player skates around the ice with the intent to injure another player, and there has been no prior contact between them. I never saw Messier do that. We know Clarke did it at least twice.

Not saying Messier was an angel, obviously, but there are degrees of dirty.

You're reaching.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Key word in my quote being "targeted". The Modano elbow-to-the-head kind of thing was more typical of Messier -- a sudden impact, an unconscious reaction, and... Whammo!

By "targeted", I mean when a player skates around the ice with the intent to injure another player, and there has been no prior contact between them. I never saw Messier do that. We know Clarke did it at least twice.

Not saying Messier was an angel, obviously, but there are degrees of dirty.

Unconscious? He knew what he was doing every time. He was flat out reckless and didn't care about the consequences for him or the player he deliberately hurt.

 

[oilexport]

Mess had a mean streak, Bobby was just mean.

 

[scott clam]

Leach was a decent enough player, but Barber and MacLeish. The defensemen weren't Bobby Orr, but they were highly effective in their own end along with Parent and Taylor backstopping them.

Leach was a natural sniper. And a huge contributor to the success of those Flyer teams. Unfortunately he had a serious drinking problem that caused him to peak early, and would derail his career. (There's actually a thread on this board about that topic.)

 

[Thenameless]

I don't like Messier but Clarke belongs in jail, absolutley disgusting player(also quite overrated).

When you say that he's overrated, do you mean his consensus all-time ranking on these boards, or do you mean the general sentiment about him in the hockey community?

He was a really good player. I'd take him for my team any day. I really can't name many players in history with his ability on both ends of the ice; a guy that can compete for an Art Ross and a Selke is really rare. His dirtiness is only a minus if he's on the other team. I'm not sure how to quantify it, but having a psychopath on your team might affect the way certain players on the other team, play their game (as in having to look over your shoulder once in a while might make you just a little bit less efficient).

 

[scott clam]

I'm not sure if Clarke is overrated. I think if anything he's more "notorious" than anything else these days. A villain.

In the media though, the "Messiah" will always be a hero. Somewhat overrated, but nonetheless deserving of top 20 status. Even though he was dirty, he was one of the best ever at being dirty.

 

[Boxscore]

Clarke was more consistently dirty. Messier had his moments--and he was physical--but Clarke was tenacious and chippy game in and game out. The best way I could describe Clarke to those who didn't watch the 70's is... combine Doug Gilmour and Dale Hunter and you have Bobby Clarke.

 

[BudBundy]

On an Oilers radio show, Jason Strudwick mentioned the absolute respect everyone Messier played with had for him. My favourite quote from Strudwick, and hopefully I’m getting it correct was that “If Mark Messier told me that there was a loose puck just inside the Gates of Hell, I’d have gone in after it.”

Dirty? Absolutely. Dirty for the era he played in and the cheap shots star players endured? Probably more accurate to say he gave more than he got. He’s a legend either way and folks questioning the high esteem in which he is held just dont know hockey that well.

 

[67 others]

Messier had a short-fuse that could blow at any time. And the high elbows in collisions, which could be dangerous. But here are some things to consider about him:
-- he never hit anybody after a whistle or after a goal against (stand up Dale Hunter)
-- he kept his stick down in collisions and in the corner (notable exceptions being the stick-whack on the Canucks' Gradin's head in 1984 and NYR-era swipe at Ulf Samuelsson).
-- he never targeted anybody with intent to injure (stand up Bobby Clarke)
-- he answered the bell and fought here and there, such as versus McSorley (3 times), Gary Roberts, and more.

I never considered Messier "dirty" per se. He was more just prone to suddenly explode in anger unpredictably. So, there was a fear aspect, because players never knew how he was going to act.

Messier tried to make space for himself old Gordie Howe style. if you got too close to him, tied him up, he was going to make you pay for it.

if you had the puck in the corner and he was bearing down on you, you shovel that puck anywhere but on your stick and get out of the way, or else. People really thought about it when Messier was forechecking. Same with Cam Neely. They made panic passes that turned into turnovers. if they didn't, they knew they were getting crushed. Before 92 there was no major and game misconduct for hitting someone in the numbers and crushing their head into the boards while they were retrieving a dump in and it was just considered part of the game. A lot of defensemen were considered "Soft" back then just because they would panic pass instead of taking the hit.

Scott Stevens had a similar effect cruising his blueline. People would see him on the ice and choose to dump the puck more often than not because taking the chance of skating it in and getting snagged by Daneyko and funneled into Stevens was a harsh reality.

 

[67 others]

You gotta be kidding me. Flying elbows off the top turnbuckle and running people from behind into the boards but he had no intent to injure?

He was a bully who primarily laid the elbow into players that were smaller and/or finesse players, and for some reason that escapes me, rarely had to truly answer the bell for it.

Not a lot of people wanted to tangle with Mark Messier

That era is gone and will never return, but it was more the wild west. Messier was an apex Alpha male in a contact sport. His confidence and eyes that could burn a hole through the bench were respected league wide and even goons knew if they fought Messier he was going to hurt them back. He was considered a bit crazy. Like the crazy druggie who might go off at any minute for no reason. Schizo style. And he was literally afraid of nobody. And if you went to throw a big hit on him he would get his elbow or stick up into your face. And everyone knew it. They also knew like Howe he would take your number and get you back for it. Sometimes a year later.

 

[Boxscore]

End of story.

 

[Theokritos]

Bobby Clarke vs. Pospisil



Also extremely dirty nearing on psychopathy. Both quite cowardly too.

I have not seen Clarke comment on this incident before, but a Czech journalist has posted this today:

 

[blundluntman]

Messier was more consistently dirty and a lot of his offenses were unforgivable, but he was at least willing to throw the mitts and felt more like "playing with an edge" and being retaliatory.

Clarke's attacks on Kharlamov and Pospisil however aren't questionable hits that you could argue were him playing hard and going too far; they're simply gutless and cowardly attempts to injure a player. In the Kharlamov case, in particular, he's literally trying to take him out of the game.

I think of it this way, if someone told Messier to take Kharlamov out of the game, I get the feeling you'd at least see him coming and be able to avoid it if he missed a check or something. Clarke is the type to catch you with a stick by surprise when you're not looking.

When he played dirty, Messier was a mean-spirited bully. When Clarke played dirty, was a spiteful rat. I don't respect either of their dirty play, but I have less tolerance for Clarke's.

Being completely objective though, you could actually argue Messier was worse than Clarke if you took out personal feelings. While it's true that Clarke broke Kharlamov's leg, Messier's head hunting could actually have ended careers. Especially back then. Clarke's lucky he didn't blind Pospisil, but Messier's also lucky he didn't paralyze or end anybody's career.

 

[sdf]

Not a lot of people wanted to tangle with Mark Messier

That era is gone and will never return, but it was more the wild west. Messier was an apex Alpha male in a contact sport. His confidence and eyes that could burn a hole through the bench were respected league wide and even goons knew if they fought Messier he was going to hurt them back. He was considered a bit crazy. Like the crazy druggie who might go off at any minute for no reason. Schizo style. And he was literally afraid of nobody. And if you went to throw a big hit on him he would get his elbow or stick up into your face. And everyone knew it. They also knew like Howe he would take your number and get you back for it. Sometimes a year later.

Wow, that's a lot of compliment to him. I think main reason why he was so badass is because he was just bigger then anyone else

 

[Moose Head]

Great question. I've spent some time this morning thinking of the answer. Eventually, I just asked myself which player's head I'd most like to break a hockey stick over.

Bobby Clarke was the easy answer. He comes off more as a sleazeball. At least Messier dropped the gloves quite a few times in his career. Clarke spent his entire career hiding behind a tough team full of goons.

Thanks for saving me some time. You hit the nail right on the head.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Messier was more consistently dirty and a lot of his offenses were unforgivable, but he was at least willing to throw the mitts and felt more like "playing with an edge" and being retaliatory.
Clarke's attacks on Kharlamov and Pospisil however aren't questionable hits that you could argue were him playing hard and going too far; they're simply gutless and cowardly attempts to injure a player. In the Kharlamov case, think of it this way, if someone told Messier to take Kharlamov out of the game, I get the feeling you'd at least see him coming and be able to avoid it if he missed a check or something. Clarke is the type to catch you with a stick by surprise when you're not looking.

When he played dirty, Messier was a mean-spirited bully. When Clarke played dirty, was a spiteful rat. I don't respect either of their dirty play, but I have less tolerance for Clarke's.

Being completely objective though, you could actually argue Messier was worse than Clarke if you took out personal feelings. While it's true that Clarke broke Kharlamov's leg, Messier's head hunting could actually have ended careers. Especially back then. Clarke's lucky he didn't blind Pospisil, but Messier's also lucky he didn't paralyze or end anybody's career.

 

[blundluntman]

Not defending the hit whatsoever, it was dirty, but even if that wasn't an elbow, Kovin left himself open for a hit in that play; it'd still arguably be a little late but he did have his head down, it was somewhat possible to avoid that one.

With Clarke, it wasn't a hockey play in any way form or fashion, there was no reason to expect someone to slash or jab you with their stick like he did. If you anticipated a body check to some degree, you had a chance with Messier at least.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Not defending the hit whatsoever, it was dirty, but even if that wasn't an elbow, Kovin left himself open for a hit in that play; it'd still arguably be a little late but he did have his head down, it was somewhat possible to avoid that one.

With Clarke, it wasn't a hockey play in any way form or fashion, there was no reason to expect someone to slash or jab you with their stick like he did. If you anticipated a body check to some degree, you had a chance with Messier at least.

How about this one.

 

[blundluntman]

How about this one.

2nd time’s the charm, this one's a blindside for sure. I guess this completely debunks the "theory" of me getting the feeling/impression that Messier would be more likely to hit a player than break their leg or almost blind them with a hockey stick. You sure showed me by "well actually"ing my general comparison didn't you?

 

[Neutrinos]

In the 4th to last game of his career, Messier did this, and the league only handed down a 2-game suspension so he could play his farewell game