Blue Jays Discussion: Dioner Navarro: The Anti-JP.

[p.l.f.]

Henricks could be next ? I was kinda hoping Redmond

 

[Dr.Funk]

Henricks could be next ? I was kinda hoping Redmond

Redmond isn't stretched out.

 

[AlienWorkShop]

Yeah I get that but its just a revolving door of players brought in. Where is the farm system to bring in their own developed players? Teams routinely bring up guys who started in the minors but now move to the pen to get them in the Majors to help the big club. AA instead deals players away to bring in guys.

Now not saying Snider and Thames are great players but 2 guys who shouldn't have been dealt away if the farm system was able to produce some relief pitching. Those players could have been used in other deals for something else if need be.

Not but dealing for Frank Fransico cost us Napoli. Aviles and Gomes were dealt for Esmil Rogers.

I certainly agree those were dud deals, but they were more about moving salary around from a position we thought was a strength (some of our most regrettable roster moves centred around assuming Arencibia could handle being the no.1 catcher...) rather than outright attempts to fill the bullpen.

Snider and Thames, as their return demonstrated, had no value.

As already said, (edit: I pretty much repeat Eyedea, so feel free to pass over) bullpen guys are rarely "blue chip prospects". They're failed/converted starters (Cecil, Janssen, Jenkins), reclamation projects (Santos), or fringe relievers who bounce around, who occasionally catch fire (Wagner). I think Loup's our only exception who fits your description.

Sometimes you have a prospect like Stroman come up, but that's not what he's being developed for in the first place. Also, as volatile as relievers tend to be, you'd often rather depend on veteran with some track record than see some rookie get shelled (see Stroman...).

In sum... I don't think the bullpen's much of a "development" tool. You want it to be as dependable and steady as possible, hence why it tends to be like the current bullpen.

 

[jcollins]

Yeah, I think so. I believe he had a tear but tried to rehab it.

I remember it the same way.

I thought he was for sure going to have it, and was surprised he was able to pitch at all.

 

[topched]

I think it's awesome that JPA is blaming the media for him being released by Toronto. He has absolutely zero accountability for his play, which was awful last year and even worse now. I'm actually looking forward to when he is DFAd by Texas when Soto is back, I wonder if he blames the Dallas media for him being outplayed by Robinson "who!?" Chirinos.

If you guys didn't see the article: http://on.thestar.com/1o1U4lw

He's trending to be the next Ray Finkle, going to lock himself in his house and write Zaun & Hayhurst all over his walls

 

[Eyedea]

Rasmussen up

 

[ryno23]

I certainly agree those were dud deals, but they were more about moving salary around from a position we thought was a strength (some of our most regrettable roster moves centred around assuming Arencibia could handle being the no.1 catcher...) rather than outright attempts to fill the bullpen.

Snider and Thames, as their return demonstrated, had no value.

As already said, (edit: I pretty much repeat Eyedea, so feel free to pass over) bullpen guys are rarely "blue chip prospects". They're failed/converted starters (Cecil, Janssen, Jenkins), reclamation projects (Santos), or fringe relievers who bounce around, who occasionally catch fire (Wagner). I think Loup's our only exception who fits your description.

Sometimes you have a prospect like Stroman come up, but that's not what he's being developed for in the first place. Also, as volatile as relievers tend to be, you'd often rather depend on veteran with some track record than see some rookie get shelled (see Stroman...).

In sum... I don't think the bullpen's much of a "development" tool. You want it to be as dependable and steady as possible, hence why it tends to be like the current bullpen.

I agree most relievers are failed starters but where are those guys for the Jays? We lost a few of those type of guys in the stupid Happ deal. At least 2 of those guys could have been those missing bullpen pieces depth guys.

For me its just one of the many bad moves AA has made. He can scout sorta loves those toolsy guys but his 40 man roster dealings are really starting to stink up the joint.

 

[topched]

I agree most relievers are failed starters but where are those guys for the Jays? We lost a few of those type of guys in the stupid Happ deal. At least 2 of those guys could have been those missing bullpen pieces depth guys.

For me its just one of the many bad moves AA has made. He can scout sorta loves those toolsy guys but his 40 man roster dealings are really starting to stink up the joint.

Agree about the Happ deal, but we have developed quite a few relievers as failed starters internally. On the roster now are Cecil and Janssen who are probably our best 2 relievers. You've also got McGowan who was obviously took a more non traditional route. In the minors you've got Jenkins and Stilson, and then presumably Drabek and McGuire are guys who will end up as relievers too. You can't really tell how many of those guys you have until they're in the high minors or even the majors, we do have lots of young arms and it's a guarantee that around 75% of them will never be MLB starters

We've actually got quite a few bullpen candidates, but there was definitely a lag there where we didn't have many guys on the farm. AA ended up trying to fill glaring bp holes and overvaluing relievers in the process... At the same time the Delabar and Santos deals were easily in our favour... So it's not all bad

 

[ryno23]

Agree about the Happ deal, but we have developed quite a few relievers as failed starters internally. On the roster now are Cecil and Janssen who are probably our best 2 relievers. You've also got McGowan who was obviously took a more non traditional route. In the minors you've got Jenkins and Stilson, and then presumably Drabek and McGuire are guys who will end up as relievers too. You can't really tell how many of those guys you have until they're in the high minors or even the majors, we do have lots of young arms and it's a guarantee that around 75% of them will never be MLB starters

We've actually got quite a few bullpen candidates, but there was definitely a lag there where we didn't have many guys on the farm. AA ended up trying to fill glaring bp holes and overvaluing relievers in the process... At the same time the Delabar and Santos deals were easily in our favour... So it's not all bad

I was going to post about Deck....isn't he repeating AA for the 3rd time. This would be a guy that obviously isn't cut out to start so why not move him to the pen and move him up the ladder quicker to help out the MLB roster instead of moving guys in trades cause you stall on guys like this.

Poor personnel decisions like this baffle me. He is not a starter any more groom him to be a good quality bullpen arm.

I just look at the domino effect of trying to deal for relief pitching every year and squandering positional players.

Maybe instead of dealing Lincoln for Snider, Snider stays in Toronto and is moved in the Marlin's deal instead and they keep Masrinick who then might entice the Mets and the Jays could have kept D'Arnaud.

Just hypothetical but better MLB roster management could have saved AA some assets to address real issues such as starting rotation, 2B among others.

 

[Eyedea]

I remember it the same way.

I thought he was for sure going to have it, and was surprised he was able to pitch at all.

Probably tried to rehab it like Ryan Borucki. Top two picks for 2013 required TJ surgery, but tbh I still really like the selections of Hollon and Murphy. Both have solid fastballs and an advanced offspeed pitch (slider/curve).

 

[p.l.f.]

Rob Rasmussen, lefty long reliever called up from Buffalo - 5'10 170
Can rack up plenty of strikeouts, thanks mostly to his curve and slider--which are often used in fastball counts)
2013/12/03 Philadelphia Phillies traded Erik Kratz and Rob Rasmussen to the Toronto Blue Jays for Brad Lincoln.

Valdez can be his replacement down there, genius.

 

[TootooTrain]

Would like to see Lawrie at 3rd for the next two games. Two lefties in a row (doubront/lester) and Happ/Buehrle on the mound for those games. There's going to be alot of balls in play.

 

[mikebel111*]

Sanchez outing yesterday

IP 5 H 2 ER 1 BB 4 K 6

92 pitches, 47 for strikes.
Control still an issue, really it's the only weakness in his pitching. He still has time though

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Would like to see Lawrie at 3rd for the next two games. Two lefties in a row (doubront/lester) and Happ/Buehrle on the mound for those games. There's going to be alot of balls in play.

They should definitely go Tolleson at 2nd, Lawrie 3rd against Lester. Against Doubront, I'm fine with having long gone Juan at 3rd, and dead set Brett at 2nd because his splits are not nearly as pronounced against left handed hitters.

 

[topched]

They should definitely go Tolleson at 2nd, Lawrie 3rd against Lester. Against Doubront, I'm fine with having long gone Juan at 3rd, and dead set Brett at 2nd because his splits are not nearly as pronounced against left handed hitters.

Brett's got very good numbers against Doubront too... Then again lots of rhh do.

Agreed about Brett at 3rd for Lester/Buerhle. Runs will be at a premium.

I'm liking that Gibby is shifting Lawrie back during the late innings. Gets him reps at 3rd and onviousl improves late game D


EDIT:
6 Reyes
7 Melky
9 Jose
3 EE
5 Lawrie
0 Navarro
4 Tolleson
2 Kratz
8 Pillar

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Somebody give Everlong a manager job.

 

[Mach85]

Drew back to the Red Sox for 1 year 10 million. Bit of a haircut from what he could have had...

 

[BertCorbeau]

Drew back to the Red Sox for 1 year 10 million. Bit of a haircut from what he could have had...

Wish AA was on that one .. Only 1 year...

 

[TootooTrain]

Somebody give Everlong a manager job.

Funny story. I was doing spot duty for my nephew's tball team who's coach lost his voice. There was one parent who constantly ragged on the other team. Nothing vulgar, just a little too intense for a freaking tball game. No place for it. Anyways the guy is looking the opposite way talking to some people while a kid is at bat. He takes a massive hack, bat goes flying EE style and gives the guy a fat lip. Karma. Normally I'd feel bad for the guy, but I happen to know him through mutual acquaintances, and he's a massive ******.

Wish AA was on that one .. Only 1 year...

Francisco wasn't a bad pickup either.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Wish AA was on that one .. Only 1 year...

1 year at a prorated $14m. Not for Stephen Drew. The only team willing to pay him that was the one not attached to draft pick comp. There's a reason for that.

 

[BertCorbeau]

1 year at a prorated $14m. Not for Stephen Drew. The only team willing to pay him that was the one not attached to draft pick comp. There's a reason for that.

Riiight the compensation pick.. Forgot about that

 

[topched]

1 year at a prorated $14m. Not for Stephen Drew. The only team willing to pay him that was the one not attached to draft pick comp. There's a reason for that.

Not to mention Drew was never ever signing to be a 2B barring a massive overpayment. Boegarts is already taking reps at 3b for when Drew is ready.

This deal is all about ridding himself of the comp pick burden for next offseason and building his value for a multi year deal. His value lies as a SS

 

[DennisReynolds]

JPA to AAA. Just thought it was interesting.

 

[BertCorbeau]

JPA to AAA. Just thought it was interesting.

What did the Texas media do to him?

 

[topched]

JPA to AAA. Just thought it was interesting.

Chris Gimenez called up in his place

Damn Texas media