Speculation: Did Losing Dubinsky and Prust Crush the Rangers

[cbjgirl]

I hope you don't mind an outside voice.

Just my opinion, you need the right pieces. I think hockey teams in particular (more so than other pro sports) need to work as a team rather than as a group of individuals.

You've seen both of these guys... Nash and Zherdev. Both, as individuals, can do magical things. But, for whatever reason, don't fit well with very many others. They work well in certain combinations - Nash and Voborney worked. Nash and Malhotra worked OK. Nash and most others, not so much.

It is players with versatility that make the overall team better. Not to be beating the CBJ drum to much here, but you could probably take almost any combination of the current forwards (at least top 9, maybe top 12) and still have some success. Different combos will work better, but having guys that can do it all (to some degree) makes the TEAM better.

My opinion, it would be better to have the equivalent of 12 B grade forwards than 3 A players, 3 B players, and 6 C/D level players. The average grade might be the same, but the balance / depth (or lack thereof) can come back to bite you.

Dubinsky seems to be the type (occasionally overly emotional, but fire-y) that can give the other guys a kick in the pants when they need it. Nash - not so much.

 

[McRanger]

Come on, McD. At no time during Tortarella's tenure could his teams be classified as such.

Well they certainly were a disjointed disgrace. That team was a mess.

In my opinion that team was pretty lazy. I'm not saying it is Torts fault; they had some straight up lazy players and they also had plenty of bi-polar players, guys like Anisimov and Dubinsky and Rozsival and even Gaborik whose effort level would go up and down game by game and shift by shift.

Overall the compete level was pretty bad. It jumped a bit when Prust and Shelley came in but not by much.

I do not see much of an effort level between this year and that year. Or this year and last year for that matter. What's different this year is the top players aren't playing like top players. They aren't even playing like mediocre players. This is Girardi, Staal, Stepan, Callahan, Hagelin and Lundqvist's worse seasons by far.

 

[profchaos2001]

I hope you don't mind an outside voice.

Just my opinion, you need the right pieces. I think hockey teams in particular (more so than other pro sports) need to work as a team rather than as a group of individuals.

You've seen both of these guys... Nash and Zherdev. Both, as individuals, can do magical things. But, for whatever reason, don't fit well with very many others. They work well in certain combinations - Nash and Voborney worked. Nash and Malhotra worked OK. Nash and most others, not so much.

It is players with versatility that make the overall team better. Not to be beating the CBJ drum to much here, but you could probably take almost any combination of the current forwards (at least top 9, maybe top 12) and still have some success. Different combos will work better, but having guys that can do it all (to some degree) makes the TEAM better.

My opinion, it would be better to have the equivalent of 12 B grade forwards than 3 A players, 3 B players, and 6 C/D level players. The average grade might be the same, but the balance / depth (or lack thereof) can come back to bite you.

Dubinsky seems to be the type (occasionally overly emotional, but fire-y) that can give the other guys a kick in the pants when they need it. Nash - not so much.

Good post.

 

[McRanger]

I hope you don't mind an outside voice.

Just my opinion, you need the right pieces. I think hockey teams in particular (more so than other pro sports) need to work as a team rather than as a group of individuals.

You've seen both of these guys... Nash and Zherdev. Both, as individuals, can do magical things. But, for whatever reason, don't fit well with very many others. They work well in certain combinations - Nash and Voborney worked. Nash and Malhotra worked OK. Nash and most others, not so much.

It is players with versatility that make the overall team better. Not to be beating the CBJ drum to much here, but you could probably take almost any combination of the current forwards (at least top 9, maybe top 12) and still have some success. Different combos will work better, but having guys that can do it all (to some degree) makes the TEAM better.

My opinion, it would be better to have the equivalent of 12 B grade forwards than 3 A players, 3 B players, and 6 C/D level players. The average grade might be the same, but the balance / depth (or lack thereof) can come back to bite you.

Dubinsky seems to be the type (occasionally overly emotional, but fire-y) that can give the other guys a kick in the pants when they need it. Nash - not so much.

The "team players" vs "individuals" concept is nice but during our best "team" year we were still led in scoring by the definition of an "individual" in Marian Gaborik.

When you've got team players who are also very talented you've hit gold. But it doesn't usually work that way. Good teams work individuals into their program. The role players do their thing and let the talented players score without having to lead.

Look at some of the top scorers on those Devils teams that won or made it to the finals. Stephane Richer. Gomez. Petr Sykora. Mogilny. Kovalchuk.

The Devils could work most players into their program because they HAD a program. It started with a competent GM and filtered down to everyone else. The Rangers aren't there. I'm not sure the Blue Jackets are either.

 

[Edge]

Thee problem then, as it is now, is that we have don't have a heck of a lot of scoring depth.

At some point, you need depth forwards who can put the puck in the net and more than one primary goal scorer.

Doesn't matter if that primary scorer is Gaborik or Nash, there's no one else on this team that puts fear into the hearts of opposing defenseman.

 

[rkhum]

Ultimately. All they accomplished was swapping Gaborik for Nash, and in the process lost Dubinsky, Anisimov, and never replaced Prust or Fedetenko.

Yep.

Take this for what it's worth.

Because of where I work, I am privy to certain events. I got a chance to attend a luncheon with Dave Maloney. Off the record, he said that the loss of Dubinksy, took lots of the identity out of the room. As did Prust not coming back. He further compared it to when he went to the finals and then in a way to improve the team, much of that core was traded away.

Agreed 100%

What Sather effectively did is unglue the locker room and then pretend that putty will put it back together.

The thing is, none of us saw it.
I didn't.
I thought they got the gamebreaker they needed.
The media bought it too....because we didn't give up Kreider or Del Zotto (more high ceiling players).

When the Pens traded for Hossa everybody thought the loss Colby Armstrong was huge, but nobody really foresaw the loss of Dubi, PAA, Prust.

Shame on us, on me, and most of all, Sather, a grinder who should known better.

 

[rkhum]

I think losing Dubi was even bigger than losing Prust. Dubi fought, killed penalties can play all 4 lines effectively, could lead a rush, score, assist etc.

He really was a jack of all trades type of player. While he will never be an All-Star he is a damn good hockey player and a true second line player.

Exactly. Dubi could do it all, he wasn't a consistent scorer but he did so many other things, he dropped the gloves with Ovetchkin, guy had balls and watching Columbus now you see very clearly what we missed.

Dubinsky was invisible his last two years here. Prust was a good PKer and occasional spark plug. Neither player would've made much of a difference today.

Worst post of the season.

 

[rkhum]

Makes me sick when people call 11-12 a fluke. I love that team and season

Yeh, you know I was for the Nash trade thinking the Rangers needed one more gamebreaker to put them over the top.
I never thought instead they'd get a washed up player and become the Gomez Rangers.

The 11 and 12 Rangers weren't the most talented, no team with Sather as GM will be, however every game they played, they played hard, with hustle, and that was fun.
We didn't want to lost this part of the team, we just wanted to have another scorer.

Begs the question:

1) Did we really the star in Nash? Was there somebody else who could have provided 1/2nd line consistent offense?

2) Would Columbus have done the deal without Dubi? Could Del Zotto or Hagelin been subed?

 

[cbjgirl]

The "team players" vs "individuals" concept is nice but during our best "team" year we were still led in scoring by the definition of an "individual" in Marian Gaborik.

When you've got team players who are also very talented you've hit gold. But it doesn't usually work that way. Good teams work individuals into their program. The role players do their thing and let the talented players score without having to lead.

Look at some of the top scorers on those Devils teams that won or made it to the finals. Stephane Richer. Gomez. Petr Sykora. Mogilny. Kovalchuk.

The Devils could work most players into their program because they HAD a program. It started with a competent GM and filtered down to everyone else. The Rangers aren't there. I'm not sure the Blue Jackets are either.

I might be misinterpreting your comment here... When I think "team player" I think (I hate to use the cliche) guys that play for the name on the front of the sweater rather than the one on the back. That might not have been what you meant (if so, sorry).

What I was trying to say had more to do with style of play rather than attitude. I don't think Nash and Zherdev (for example, since both fan bases are familiar with both players) on purposely play an individual game. Rather, it is more that they haven't expanded their games to include their teammates to the extent necessary to be successful collectively. They don't seem to think a "team" game.

Bad analogy time... so you've got some toy you need to fix for your kid, you might need a flat headed screwdriver, or a hex headed one, maybe an allen wrench... You've probably got at least a variety of sizes of those tools. But, occasionally you run across something that needs that special, goofy, star-shaped tool. You don't have one, not sure where to get one, and you can't get any of your other tools to work. Things just don't fit together right. Some players are like that, try as you might, you just can't get them to work with what you've got (whether that is the coaching staff (coach problem), the game plan (coach/player problem), or each other (player/GM problem)).

With my team having been in the West until this season, honestly, I haven't really paid any attention to the Devils so I can't really compare.

As far as the Jackets are concerned, we'll have to see how things go over the next few weeks. Until this last stretch of games they have been extremely bi-polar on the ice. Time will tell if they've turned the corner or not.

Someone on our board did the math and they've currently got about $24 million worth of salary on the IR. I'm just hoping for about 500 until they get the "stars" back.

 

[cbjgirl]

Exactly. Dubi could do it all, he wasn't a consistent scorer but he did so many other things, he dropped the gloves with Ovetchkin, guy had balls and watching Columbus now you see very clearly what we missed.


Worst post of the season.

The CBJ ran into something similar. They made the playoffs, then didn't resign Mike Peca or Manny Malhotra. Two guys, who from the outside looked to be replaceable. Peca's play on the ice was slipping - that was obvious. What wasn't obvious was the role he had in the room of being the Hitchcock / young player buffer. He was there to explain to the kids and smooth some ruffled feathers "don't take what Hitch said personally, just do your job". Malhotra was one of those guys who would invite the youngsters over for dinner (and probably keep them out of trouble). But, he wanted a big raise that offseason. Two role models whose roles behind the scenes were far more important than it appeared.

There is something to the whole idea of "glue guys". When your glue guys can be your skill guys or your good example guys - then the team can have some sustained success. If your skill guys aren't hard workers and give the impression to the team youngsters that you really don't have to work for it, that is when things will crumble.

 

[RangersHank*]

Yeh, you know I was for the Nash trade thinking the Rangers needed one more gamebreaker to put them over the top.
I never thought instead they'd get a washed up player and become the Gomez Rangers.

The 11 and 12 Rangers weren't the most talented, no team with Sather as GM will be, however every game they played, they played hard, with hustle, and that was fun.
We didn't want to lost this part of the team, we just wanted to have another scorer.

Begs the question:

1) Did we really the star in Nash? Was there somebody else who could have provided 1/2nd line consistent offense?

2) Would Columbus have done the deal without Dubi? Could Del Zotto or Hagelin been subed?

I agree. Nash wasnt a need. What we needed was another top 6 forward and another bottom 6 forward and a depth Dman. Say we keep that team together and still let Prust go. Plus we also still trade Rupp for Powe who we send to AHL. This is all speculation but i think this team would look better than this years team. No Zucc either.

2012-13 team: what i would have done
Hagelin-Richards-Gaborik
Whitney-Stepan-Callahan
Dubinsky-AA-Ponikarovsky/Langenbrunner
Mitchell-Boyle-Fedotenko

That forward group has depth and another top 6er in Whitney who played in a defensive system and Poni or Langenbrunner who are decent bottom 6 guys. AND we can still make the trade at the deadline for Clowe. Kreider and Miller get shots with injuries. Once again, that is my opinion and what i would have done if the Nash trade wasnt done.

This year:
Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Hagelin-Richards-Zuccarello
Pyatt-Brassard-Callahan
Pouliot-Boyle-Dorsett

Lots of plugs here and inconsistency. Maybe a bit more skilled, but alot more heartless. Give me my fantasy 12-13 team over last years 12-13 team anyday

 

[slipknottin]

The problem with any plan keeping Gaborik is that Gaborik is in decline too.

What they should have done was move Gaborik awhile back and got a young scorer in return

 

[cd211]

yes they were big losses bc they were a different dimension..

we have a lot of the same style players in the lineup.. most of them even nash are all pass first kind of players/playmakers..

dubi was a huge piece of this team and identity... i honestly think us fans run players out of town and thats a sad sad thing.. one thing i wish we did do is over pay for our own and not over pay for FA coming here first time.. prust shouldve been over paid to stay, at least he would been cost effective instead of 2 of pyatt/pouliot/asham/powe etc.... the dubi thing had to be done if a star like nash is available..

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Exactly. Dubi could do it all, he wasn't a consistent scorer but he did so many other things, he dropped the gloves with Ovetchkin, guy had balls and watching Columbus now you see very clearly what we missed.


Worst post of the season.

That is not the worst post of anything. If I recall Dubs struggled A LOT in his final two years. Prust had seen a dropoff in hios play before his contract was up and his demands were massive. He's spent half is career in Montreal so far being injured.

Maybe just MAYBE...and I know this may be a crazy thought...but maybe having Gabs and Richards (two 70-90 pt players) both fall off a cliff might have a bit more to do with the team falling apart. Maybe Staal's injuries have deteriorated his play. Because let's face it trading Dubs does not cause Staal to forget how to play hockey. Losing prust did not make Callahan forget how to play hockey. Losing those two players did not cause Lundqvist to give up a ton of weak goals.

I don't understand why everyone wants to dig deeper and invent reasons to explain this team and its suckitude. Seems everyone wants to give a more in-depth, made up analysis of something that is more obvious to see than a lit up NYC skyline at night.

 

[AlternateSideParking]

The Rangers werent that good with them when they were at the top of their games. Prust and Dubinsky had career years in 2011, and they were a bottom seed who were bounced in 5 games in the first round.

It's funny how the Rangers won 50 games and made the CF with career-worst seasons from both of them, and I'm not just talking statistically. Prust and Dubinsky were easily two of the worst, least productive and numb-skulled players on what was almost a President's Trophy winning team.

OK, so they were "gritty" and stood up for teammates. Crap like that doesnt make guys like Callahan, gaborik and Nash better goal scorers, or intimidate goalies like Brodeur and Rask who outplayed the only guy who matters on the Rangers.

 

[rkhum]

I agree. Nash wasnt a need. What we needed was another top 6 forward and another bottom 6 forward and a depth Dman. Say we keep that team together and still let Prust go. Plus we also still trade Rupp for Powe who we send to AHL. This is all speculation but i think this team would look better than this years team. No Zucc either.

2012-13 team: what i would have done
Hagelin-Richards-Gaborik
Whitney-Stepan-Callahan
Dubinsky-AA-Ponikarovsky/Langenbrunner
Mitchell-Boyle-Fedotenko

That forward group has depth and another top 6er in Whitney who played in a defensive system and Poni or Langenbrunner who are decent bottom 6 guys. AND we can still make the trade at the deadline for Clowe. Kreider and Miller get shots with injuries. Once again, that is my opinion and what i would have done if the Nash trade wasnt done.

This year:
Kreider-Stepan-Nash
Hagelin-Richards-Zuccarello
Pyatt-Brassard-Callahan
Pouliot-Boyle-Dorsett

Lots of plugs here and inconsistency. Maybe a bit more skilled, but alot more heartless. Give me my fantasy 12-13 team over last years 12-13 team anyday

Larry Brooks hit on this is Friday column about Neil Smith taking ex-Oilers while Slats takes ex-Blue Jackets http://nypost.com/2013/12/12/loading-up-on-blue-jackets-hasnt-gotten-rangers-very-far/


Makes me sad tonight seeing AA score his 9th, Tytuin also scoring.

This is why being a Rangers fan is hopeless and will be until Sather and probably Dolan are gone.
Just no plan at all, happened to by luck fall into some talent and cohesion, and tore it up just to get a star to sell seats.

 

[Pizza]

The "team players" vs "individuals" concept is nice but during our best "team" year we were still led in scoring by the definition of an "individual" in Marian Gaborik.

When you've got team players who are also very talented you've hit gold. But it doesn't usually work that way. Good teams work individuals into their program. The role players do their thing and let the talented players score without having to lead.

Look at some of the top scorers on those Devils teams that won or made it to the finals. Stephane Richer. Gomez. Petr Sykora. Mogilny. Kovalchuk.

The Devils could work most players into their program because they HAD a program. It started with a competent GM and filtered down to everyone else. The Rangers aren't there. I'm not sure the Blue Jackets are either.

Gabby had some very nice support on that team. As balanced a team as the Rangers have had in many years. It was not pretty much of the time but you can't argue with the math. They did a lot of the little things teams need to do to find ways to win.

None of that is happening now.

Because they have no heart, no spirit and no confidence. No one is ready to back their team mate.

You need a balanced team to win. Skill, Scoring, Size, Grit, Toughness. Heart. You absolutely can't win with out heart. You can have all the skill and scoring that people scream for around here but if you have no heart it won't matter. You won't win.

Sather threw a wheel and un balanced the whole works. He should have known better, but he saw a chance to grab a difference maker and ignored the fact the guy he got has never led anyone any where. Dubi's wearing a letter in Cbus. Anyone wanna take a bet on when Nash has a letter on his Rangers sweater? I mean I want this guy to succeed, but he's gotta show some leadership.

Anyway, Sather's not going anywhere so we'll see what he does to get things back on track.

 

[Fanned On It]

Dubi is a good 2nd line player who I miss and I feel like we gave up on him way too quick after one bad year. He seems to be doing well for Columbus right now, no?

 

[slipknottin]

Dubi is a good 2nd line player who I miss and I feel like we gave up on him way too quick after one bad year. He seems to be doing well for Columbus right now, no?

Dubi has 21 points in 27 games.

Anisimov has 9 goals.

 

[RangersHank*]

Larry Brooks hit on this is Friday column about Neil Smith taking ex-Oilers while Slats takes ex-Blue Jackets http://nypost.com/2013/12/12/loading-up-on-blue-jackets-hasnt-gotten-rangers-very-far/


Makes me sad tonight seeing AA score his 9th, Tytuin also scoring.

This is why being a Rangers fan is hopeless and will be until Sather and probably Dolan are gone.
Just no plan at all, happened to by luck fall into some talent and cohesion, and tore it up just to get a star to sell seats.

I agree. It destroyed the chemistry and probably changed the locker room a little bit also

 

[True Blue]

I agree. It destroyed the chemistry and probably changed the locker room a little bit also

More than a little. Again, per Dave Maloney (off the record) it did much damage. He also compared it to when they went to the finals, and then to "help the team", much of that core was traded away. We know how that turned out.