Did including Toews into Top 100 Players instead of Malkin age well?

[daver]

Health is only a factor if it doesn't apply to daver's buddy Crosby.

If you rank Crosby over Ovechkin, you should rank Malkin over Sakic. Can't have it both ways, even if you are Canadian.

Let's see your case for Malkin over Sakic.

Rate their best seasons (including partial ones) for starters.

 

[McOilers97]

Malkin, Thornton and Iginla were all snubbed. No question in my mind they should all have been on it - regardless of whether they replaced some current players. or retired players.

 

[daver]

Sakic's career may be better due to longevity but he wasn't better than Forsberg and a lot of his people still have Foppa ahead

Sakic has the better season between the two and the better playoff run, maybe runs.

Forsberg was argubly injury-prone given his style of play.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Toews isn't even as good as Giroux just a media hype machine

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Who was better than Sakic in "his generation" besides Wayne and Mario? If you can someone else besides Jagr, you may have a point.

Wayne, Mario, Lidstrom, Jagr, and Hasek were all clearly ranked higher, for his contemporaries.

After that it depends on how you define “generation”, since Sakic’s career was so long. In the 90s, I add Lindros and Fedorov to the list of players better than Sakic. In the 00s, Forsberg and Thornton go ahead as well.

 

[Connor McConnor]

Sakic has the better season between the two and the better playoff run, maybe runs.

Forsberg was argubly injury-prone given his style of play.

Foppa was definitely injury prone directly related to his style of play but that doesn't change my mind (any many others) that there is a difference between who is better and who had a better career.

I have Foppa as the better player while Sakic had the greater career. No knock on Sakic, he just wasn't as dominant as Foppa and that includes while they played together. Forsberg also had pretty much the same hardware as Sakic while playing close to half the time (~1400 games vs. 700). His PPG is 4th all time adjusted vs. 10th for Sakic.

 

[Video Nasty]

Wayne, Mario, Lidstrom, Jagr, and Hasek were all clearly ranked higher, for his contemporaries.

After that it depends on how you define “generation”, since Sakic’s career was so long. In the 90s, I add Lindros and Fedorov to the list of players better than Sakic. In the 00s, Forsberg and Thornton go ahead as well.

Not much of an argument. Gretzky and Lemieux put just about every player in history at no higher than the #3 spot. The other is a defenseman and a goalie. How do you compare those to forwards?

Jagr definitely better than Sakic. All other players you mentioned either couldn’t stay on the ice enough (Lindros/Forsberg) or they had a season or two at best that they were better than Sakic (Fedorov/Thornton).

 

[Video Nasty]

Foppa was definitely injury prone directly related to his style of play but that doesn't change my mind (any many others) that there is a difference between who is better and who had a better career.

I have Foppa as the better player while Sakic had the greater career. No knock on Sakic, he just wasn't as dominant as Foppa and that includes while they played together. Forsberg also had pretty much the same hardware as Sakic while playing close to half the time (~1400 games vs. 700). His PPG is 4th all time adjusted vs. 10th for Sakic.

As always, the players who play the games and are able to play into the latter stages of their career when PPG starts declining shouldn’t be penalized, nor should players who played almost half the games in comparison be propped up and treated as if their PPG would not fall as well.

Sakic played almost twice the amount of games as Forsberg and his PPG isn’t that much different (1.25 vs 1.19). That is credit to him. Just like how for the longest time Jagr had a higher PPG than Sakic and here we are at the end of day where he sits at 1.11 because he played about 350 games more than Sakic (and 1000 games more than Forsberg). Jagr always produced at a higher PPG than Sakic and just because the raw list says otherwise doesn’t make that untrue.

These numbers mean a lot more when you’re pushing at least 1000+ games played and you’ve taken the hits of old age and you still have a high PPG.

 

[Connor McConnor]

As always, the players who play the games and are able to play into the latter stages of their career when PPG starts declining shouldn’t be penalized, nor should players who played almost half the games in comparison be propped up and treated as if their PPG would not fall as well.

Sakic played almost twice the amount of games as Forsberg and his PPG isn’t that much different (1.25 vs 1.19). That is credit to him. Just like how for the longest time Jagr had a higher PPG than Sakic and here we are at the end of day where he sits at 1.11 because he played about 350 games more than Sakic (and 1000 games more than Forsberg). Jagr always produced at a higher PPG than Sakic and just because the raw list says otherwise doesn’t make that untrue.

These numbers mean a lot more when you’re pushing at least 1000+ games played and you’ve taken the hits of old age and you still have a high PPG.

Fair point but you basically addressed 1/3rd of my post. I prefer when people serve up a rebuttal to address every aspect so it doesn't seem cherry picked. What's your argument for Sakic having the same amount of hardware in 1/2 the games played? Or the fact that Foppa was visually a more dominant player for them? Like I said, Sakic had the greater career, because of his longevity, and that isn't a knock. But when you ask who was better/who'd you rather have for one season, I'd take Foppa.

 

[Video Nasty]

Fair point but you basically addressed 1/3rd of my post. I prefer when people serve up a rebuttal to address every aspect so it doesn't seem cherry picked. What's your argument for Sakic having the same amount of hardware in 1/2 the games played? Or the fact that Foppa was visually a more dominant player for them? Like I said, Sakic had the greater career, because of his longevity, and that isn't a knock. But when you ask who was better/who'd you rather have for one season, I'd take Foppa.

What I wrote pretty much addresses that. What awards was Forsberg likely going to win past the age of 32? He played a grand total of 11 games past that age. Sakic played 360 or so, showed he was still a PPG player at an advanced age and even hit 100 at age 37.

I don’t disagree with you that Forsberg had stretches where he was a better player than Sakic, likewise Lindros who was such an incredible force for those first handful of seasons. But if we’re talking top 100 players ever and rankings which seems to be the topic (is Malkin more deserving than Toews, where would he rank all time etc), I’m taking the players who had double the career, were just as legendary in their own right and so on. The ones who played the extra games and were still high level producers until the very end. Yzerman and Sakic will always be ranked higher than Forsberg and Lindros. If they were healthy and played full careers, perhaps not. But that’s not what happened.

 

[Connor McConnor]

What I wrote pretty much addresses that. What awards was Forsberg likely going to win past the age of 32? He played a grand total of 11 games past that age. Sakic played 360 or so, showed he was still a PPG player at an advanced age and even hit 100 at age 37.

I don’t disagree with you that Forsberg had stretches where he was a better player than Sakic, likewise Lindros who was such an incredible force for those first handful of seasons. But if we’re talking top 100 players ever and rankings which seems to be the topic (is Malkin more deserving than Toews, where would he rank all time etc), I’m taking the players who had double the career, were just as legendary in their own right and so on. The ones who played the extra games and were still high level producers until the very end. Yzerman and Sakic will always be ranked higher than Forsberg and Lindros. If they were healthy and played full careers, perhaps not. But that’s not what happened.

I'm from Burnaby so I got no problem with that Both great players. Foppa / Bure were my favourites growing up so that might be playing a bit of bias into it.

 

[end]

• Jean Beliveau
• Wayne Gretzky
• Denis Potvin
• Yvan Cournoyer
• Maurice Richard
• George Armstrong
• Sidney Crosby
• Jonathan Toews
• Steve Yzerman
• Syl Apps
• Scott Stevens
• Sid Abel

These are the only people to win 3 or more Stanley Cups as a captain.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

• Jean Beliveau
• Wayne Gretzky
• Denis Potvin
• Yvan Cournoyer
• Maurice Richard
• George Armstrong
• Sidney Crosby
• Jonathan Toews
• Steve Yzerman
• Syl Apps
• Scott Stevens
• Sid Abel

These are the only people to win 3 or more Stanley Cups as a captain.

Interesting miscellanea. Surely this bit of trivia places Toews firmly in the top 20 of all time.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sakic has the better season between the two and the better playoff run, maybe runs.

Forsberg was argubly injury-prone given his style of play.

I do find it interesting that you are so adamant about Sid versus Ovie and now think Sakic versus Malkin is easily settled in Sakic’s camp.

Malkin has the better hardware, more success from an individual perspective and the better playoff record.

 

[North Cole]

Duncan Keith being on the list is more surprising to me tbh

I disagree. He has two Norris and Smythe. Even one individual trophy do a lot for a players legacy.

 

[GreatGonzo]

• Jean Beliveau
• Wayne Gretzky
• Denis Potvin
• Yvan Cournoyer
• Maurice Richard
• George Armstrong
• Sidney Crosby
• Jonathan Toews
• Steve Yzerman
• Syl Apps
• Scott Stevens
• Sid Abel

These are the only people to win 3 or more Stanley Cups as a captain.

Difference is, most, if not all of those players would be HOFers and all time greats if they never captained a team to 3 cups. With toews, that’s all he has. His claim to glory is being able to be in the same sentence as Yzerman because they both happened to captain a team to 3 cups.

Captaincy is an intangible trait, not a skill or something that makes him anywhere near there level.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I do find it interesting that you are so adamant about Sid versus Ovie and now think Sakic versus Malkin is easily settled in Sakic’s camp.

Malkin has the better hardware, more success from an individual perspective and the better playoff record.

Daver loves using era as an argument and “relative to his peers.” Malkin having 2 scoring titles, a Hart while being a runner up two other times, should definitely be taken into consideration. As an individual, he separated himself and dominated more than Sakic did, but I feel Sakic gets a bit of a nod based on being still a dominant player, but in an era where top end talent at all positions was more competitive and elite.

I don’t know about playoffs though. It’s very close between them. Both have a historic Smythe performances, both have multiple other top playoff performances, but Malkin has one more cup. I might give Sakic the edge playoff wise, he finished the ‘01 playoffs with no Forsberg while having just as amazing of a post season in ‘96 as Malkin did ‘09.

 

[Iapyi]

Malkin is a better leader than Toews.

I wouldn't know as neither of them have ever played with or even met me.

 

[hcg]

Toews isn't even as good as Giroux just a media hype machine

Toews is like, top 5 all time at playing on great teams.

 

[AJRAYMOND]

I don't even like using Toews as the example. Mats Sundin should be the example. Not only for Malkin missing the top 100 but also getting in 1st ballot HOF over Brendan Shannahan. Mat's Sundin won absolutely nothing besides a Gold Medal in the Olympics. He made a ton of All-Star appearances because the Leafs had to send somebody. Malkin actually gets jobbed on a bunch of All-Stars because you know the have to send the Golden Boy. Toews to his credit was a fine two way center and a part of 3 Stanley Cups and was the best forward in at least one of those Olympics. Malkin is and was better than him but there is plenty of others who he should of been ahead of.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don't even like using Toews as the example. Mats Sundin should be the example. Not only for Malkin missing the top 100 but also getting in 1st ballot HOF over Brendan Shannahan. Mat's Sundin won absolutely nothing besides a Gold Medal in the Olympics. He made a ton of All-Star appearances because the Leafs had to send somebody. Malkin actually gets jobbed on a bunch of All-Stars because you know the have to send the Golden Boy. Toews to his credit was a fine two way center and a part of 3 Stanley Cups and was the best forward in at least one of those Olympics. Malkin is and was better than him but there is plenty of others who he should of been ahead of.

To be fair, Sundin was a better player than Toews and had a completely different situation in Toronto. I’m not saying he deserved to be on the list, Toews career definitely over shadows Sundin, but in many ways that becomes unfair to Sundin, who definitely became a model of consistency and was one of the best players and centers during the DPE.

I would have put Thornton, Iginla, and Malkin over Sundin for sure. But I feel out of the “weak links” in the top 100, Sundin should get less flack than others.

 

[rintinw]

Let's see your case for Malkin over Sakic.

Rate their best seasons (including partial ones) for starters.

Sakic
Hart: 1, 6, 7, 7, *7, *8
Ross: 2, 3, *3, 4, 5, 6, 6, *7, 9, 10
P/GP (at least 30 pts in season): 2, 3, 3, 5, 5, 6, 7, *9, *9
+ 1x Pearson, 1x Smythe
(* was after 33, the age of Malkin)

Malkin
Hart: 1, 2, 2, 7
Ross: 1, 1, 2, 4
P/GP (at least 30 pts in season): 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7
+ 1x Pearson, 1x Smythe

 

[Pi]

Not a shot at Toews, but I still can't believe Malkin was left off that list. He's been nothing but a producing machine since the moment he came into the league.

Seriously. I even remember stating that even as a big Sundin fan, take him out to accommodate either Thornton or Malkin. That list was made by someone who realized it was due in 15 minutes.

Toews shouldn't be anywhere near that list.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Toews isn't even as good as Giroux just a media hype machine

Nobody:
Flyers fans: OMG Toews isn’t as good as Giroux!

 

[Cloned]

No.