Did Carey Price live up to his 8 year, $84M contract?

[Kimota]

Someday NHL GMs will learn to give players contracts based on what they will do during that contract, and not for rewarding them based on the play of their previous contract. Everyone knew giving Price that much money for that much term would end up being a disaster and it was. Just like Shesterkin in NYR.

In a dream World, that would be the case but this never happens. Players and agents go to negotiations with the ultimate weapon of what they have done before. I wished GMs would put their foot down and say "this is what I think you are gonna do on the ice in the next 5 to 8 years" and offering them contracts related to that but this never happens.

 

[Kimota]

Different situations.

Roy was on teams that had multiple Selke winners and nominees. Multi Norris winners. A Jacques Lemaire style checking system and a good offense. Carey Price was on trash teams.

Yes, Price took longer - again though much of that is because those clubs were putrid. Once he established himself though he had a brilliant run and was really consistent in the postseason. Roy was replaced in 87 by Hayward. Lost to the Bruins in the first round in 88 (first time in 30 years), had a strong run in 89. Shat the bed three straight years vs Boston. By spring of 93 there was a poll in the Gazette with the majority of readers wanting him traded.

Patrick Roy is a spectacular goalie. One of the best ever. And - as I said - will go down that way. A better career than Carey Price. But he played on much, much better teams. And in his two wins in Montreal, he had very lucky easy schedules. That's just a fact.

Swap their teams and Price has the cups with Roy getting none.

Also Roy pretty much played for an all star team in Colorado after he left the Habs.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Price worked with one player who had a PPG + season, one time.
It was Kovalev.

 

[Treb]

He did.

His body did not.

 

[PaulD]

It’s tragic how they blew that team up so badly in 2017. Worst D I’ve ever seen. Not even Price could save it and I have no doubt it contributed to his personal demons.

End of the day though, he was money in the playoffs. Even in series where he lost he almost always played well.

He should be a 1st ballot HOFer.

Pricec was not good at all in the 5 game loss to Flyers in 2008.
2009 Habs out 4 straight to Bruins and Carey was OK.
2010 Lost the starters job to Halak.
2011 He was fantastic in 7 game loss to Bruins.
2012 Missed play offs
2013 Was not very good in 5 game loss to Sens.
2014 was fantastic until injured in third round.
2015 Great in first round against Sens. OK against Bolts in second round loss.
2016 Injured.
2017 OK against Rangers lost in 6 games.
2021 Covid run to finals was very good till the finals

 

[FreeToShareWithMeOk]

Yes, perfectly. He even exited at the best time with no cap implications (the offseason tagging bullshit is nothing come on). Imagine a Minnesota situation with Parise/Suter or him continuing to play through injury and becoming one of the worst goalies in the league for the last few years of his deal while taking up the cap space.

What killed Montreal was Bergevin buying a dog instead of keeping Markov and Radulov. Ironically he was responsible for the most successful parts of their current rebuild as well (Suzuki, Caulfield, Guhle)

 

[Kimota]

The answer is No but it has nothing to do with anything, the guy was injured. It's not based on performance.

 

[viceroy]

So, because 8 of the 16 Eastern Conference teams scored more points than the Habs in 2019, you think that somehow suggests they actually deserved a playoff berth during the Covid Cup, when they benefited from a single year rule that said they only had to beat 3 other bottom feeders to get in? Or did they deserve their Covid Cup playoff berth because the Western Conference had a 7 team division that didn't get gifted 4 automatic playoff spots as special treatment after expansion and realignment?

Blah, blah, blah. Not a single argument you've stated here contradicts what I said. Eight team comes out of the West, eight teams come out of the East yet the number of teams are uneven. The rules for that season were for one season but they were the same for all the teams. I understand you're still all bent outta shape over this for whatever reason, definitely not for hating like you said...

Henrik Lundqvist is comfortably ahead of Carey Price.

Lundqvist's run from '05-06 to '15-16 is simply better than the meat of Price's career. Equally as dominant and far more consistent/reliable.

One game for all the marbles. Not a best of seven just a one game winner take all. You have to pick between prime Price or prime Lundqvist or let's say... your team gets relegated to the AHL. Who would you pick? Me? no question Carey. And I think most would pick him

p.s. for side argument sakes I'd take prime Roy over prime Price.

Weber's picture's in the dressing room now that he's in the Hall of Fame.

Price's will be too.

That's just crazy talk. That changes everything. What are the rules now? I mean if winning a Cup's no longer a criteria what else has changed? I mean that means others will get in too now. Will eventually Kovalchuk get his picture in? I guess that means every Tom, Dick and Harry will have his picture in now. There once was a time where having your picture in the Habs' dressing room was more prestigious than the Hall of Fame and your number in the rafters a step above that. Now it's just another slap in the face to all of MTL's greats.

LTIR doesn’t mean living up to a contract.

But it doesn't mean you started sucking and were unworthy of your contract it just means your body literally broke down and your team is insulated from the effects.

I can assure you that professional gamblers are not "essentially just guessing".

Look amigo I may not have a degree in probability but I do have a host of friends who were a touch more than shady and that spent some time as "guests" of the state. Those numbers you're touting aren't some pure sets formulated by a bunch of dudes working in lab coats with chalk. They are manipulated by a bunch of guys that have ulterior motives. Teams that have large fandoms may see better odds to get marks in.

I may not have a PhD in Probability Theory or Statistics but I know a thing or two about working a mark.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

The contract has played out as best case scenario so far , luckily enough , much to the chagrin of Carey's knees

 

[Bombshell11]

Price worked with one player who had a PPG + season, one time.
It was Kovalev.

Subban was a Norris lets not forget that

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Blah, blah, blah. Not a single argument you've stated here contradicts what I said. Eight team comes out of the West, eight teams come out of the East yet the number of teams are uneven. The rules for that season were for one season but they were the same for all the teams. I understand you're still all bent outta shape over this for whatever reason, definitely not for hating like you said...

The 8 teams that came out of the East and the West while there were uneven divisions still had to beat more than just 3 bottom feeders to make the playoffs. And had to play against the entire league, not just the 6 other Canadian teams.

I get that the Covid Cup was the only time the Habs have even gotten close to a Cup since Roy left, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us need to pretend they didn't have the single easiest path to the playoffs in at least 30+ years and would have gotten in without the special Covid rules. The only people delusional enough to believe otherwise seem to be Habs fans, a fandom that also seems to baselessly believe Price deserves to be in the same category as Roy.

 

[Lshap]

The 8 teams that came out of the East and the West while there were uneven divisions still had to beat more than just 3 bottom feeders to make the playoffs. And had to play against the entire league, not just the 6 other Canadian teams.

I get that the Covid Cup was the only time the Habs have even gotten close to a Cup since Roy left, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us need to pretend they didn't have the single easiest path to the playoffs in at least 30+ years and would have gotten in without the special Covid rules. The only people delusional enough to believe otherwise seem to be Habs fans, a fandom that also seems to baselessly believe Price deserves to be in the same category as Roy.

This is total nonsense. There was no 'entire league' in 2020/21. There were four divisions only playing within themselves. You can't rank Montreal - or any team - against teams they never played.

Here’s Montreal’s combined 2020/21 record versus Anaheim, Arizona, Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Columbus, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Florida, LA, Minn, Nashville, NJ, NYI, NYR, Pitts, Phil, SJ, St Louis, Tampa, Vegas, Washington: 0-0-0

On what basis can they be 18th amongst teams they never played… not even once? You can’t compare point totals earned against totally different competition. It’s like saying Tampa couldn’t make the playoffs in the SHL in 2020/21 because their point total placed them 10th in that league. Comparing point totals of teams that never played each other is meaningless (except for the draft, because how else are they supposed to do it?).

As for the Canadian division, um... no... it wasn't composed of bottom feeders. Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Winnipeg were legit playoff teams the year before. And then the following year, Toronto, Calgary, and Edmonton made the playoffs again. The Canadian division was a one-off, but in terms of quality it was no weaker than many mixed & matched divisions over the years. In fact, the Canadian division had the worst travel schedule of any division, with Montreal and Vancouver the most disadvantaged teams of all.

True, the Canadian Division had no powerhouse that year (you can argue Toronto was). However, Montreal ended up beating the consensus 2nd best powerhouse, Vegas, in round-3.

All that said, I agree that Roy was better than Price, although they're so different in styles and temperament it's hard to compare. But having watched both from the start of their careers, there's a legit argument that Price could've won the same Cups if he had Roy's team in front of him.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Subban was a Norris lets not forget that

Who else was great, and played at the same time as Subban?

 

[HighAndTight]

Regular season over 7 years:
View attachment 949753

These stats are very misleading. Every player is at different stages of their careers.

Better numbers would be everyone's 23-30 year old seasons.

But then it would look a lot less impressive to have similar or worse stats facing 3000 less shots then say Luongo from 23-30.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Ed Belfour is not anywhere close to the first two tiers of goaltenders in history. So, no.

Ed Belfour won a Vezina smack dab in the middle of Hasek and Roy prime. Roy won the year prior, Hasek the year after. He also has 4 Jennings trophies.

Price won exactly one Vezina in the middle of who's prime again? Rask won the year prior, and Holtby won the year following. He has 1 Jennings trophy to his name.

Look, if you didn't watch 90s hockey, that's fine. But your ignorance is honestly embarrassing.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

True, the Canadian Division had no powerhouse that year (you can argue Toronto was). However, Montreal ended up beating the consensus 2nd best powerhouse, Vegas, in round-3.

This seems to be getting lost in this thread a bit. I even have heard it being downplayed as 'Yeah, price was very good until the finals'

Price was better than 'very good' to the point where he was putting up one of the most dominant runs we have ever seen by a goalie. The Vegas series was essentially Price standing on his head as he waits for his offense to put one by Fleury. The offense was so inept that Vegas fans actually blamed Fleury for most of the goals instead of crediting Montreal's offense. Price was clutch in pressure moments too, I believe he had a 4 game OT win streak that bled into that Vegas series.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

This is total nonsense. There was no 'entire league' in 2020/21. There were four divisions only playing within themselves. You can't rank Montreal - or any team - against teams they never played.

Here’s Montreal’s combined 2020/21 record versus Anaheim, Arizona, Boston, Buffalo, Carolina, Chicago, Columbus, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Florida, LA, Minn, Nashville, NJ, NYI, NYR, Pitts, Phil, SJ, St Louis, Tampa, Vegas, Washington: 0-0-0

On what basis can they be 18th amongst teams they never played… not even once? You can’t compare point totals earned against totally different competition. It’s like saying Tampa couldn’t make the playoffs in the SHL in 2020/21 because their point total placed them 10th in that league. Comparing point totals of teams that never played each other is meaningless (except for the draft, because how else are they supposed to do it?).

As for the Canadian division, um... no... it wasn't composed of bottom feeders. Toronto, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, and Winnipeg were legit playoff teams the year before. And then the following year, Toronto, Calgary, and Edmonton made the playoffs again. The Canadian division was a one-off, but in terms of quality it was no weaker than many mixed & matched divisions over the years. In fact, the Canadian division had the worst travel schedule of any division, with Montreal and Vancouver the most disadvantaged teams of all.

True, the Canadian Division had no powerhouse that year (you can argue Toronto was). However, Montreal ended up beating the consensus 2nd best powerhouse, Vegas, in round-3.

All that said, I agree that Roy was better than Price, although they're so different in styles and temperament it's hard to compare. But having watched both from the start of their careers, there's a legit argument that Price could've won the same Cups if he had Roy's team in front of him.

If we can't rank Montreal against teams they never played, how can we assume they would have been a playoff team without those special rules? They were the 12th best team in the East when the league shut down, the worst team in the league the year after the Covid Cup, and as you said, they only played against 6 other teams. Is that not enough to justify a pretty big * next to the whole season, including the playoffs?

Admittedly, calling the entire North Division bottom feeders might be a tad hard harsh, but there was only a single Canadian team that would have had home ice in the first round the previous year, based on P% when the league shut down (Edmonton - 2nd in Pacific, but 5th in West). Toronto was 9th in the East in P% as the 3rd seed in the Atlantic. Vancouver/Calgary/Winnipeg were in a tight wildcard race with Nashville and Minnesota, and it's very possible that only 1 of them would have made it in (as the 3 seed in the Pacific). And then there's Montreal and Ottawa, two teams in line for a top 10 pick. That's potentially 4 teams hoping to move up in the draft lottery the previous year in a 7 team division that didn't have a single team that was top 10 in P% the previous season. Every other division had 8 teams with at least three teams from the top 10 in P% when the league shut down the previous season. Are you really going to pretend there's no difference between these divisions?

And, the Habs consistently have one of the easiest travel schedules in the league, so you're not going to find much sympathy for having to actually travel during the Covid Cup season.

 

[Lshap]

These stats are very misleading. Every player is at different stages of their careers.

Better numbers would be everyone's 23-30 year old seasons.

But then it would look a lot less impressive to have similar or worse stats facing 3000 less shots then say Luongo from 23-30.

I posted seven straight seasons of Price's career - how is that misleading? You said 'every player is at different stages of their career'... I mean...um... isn't that the case with every player who's ever played. There are always players older and younger than you, with careers that started before and after you. So what? You judge a player's career based on how he did relative to his peers, at whatever time he played.

And what in the world makes 23-30 year old numbers 'better'?? Hasek became a starter at 28. Tim Thomas started his career at 31. What does age have to do with anything? I'm sorry... I'm not following your logic.

 

[Lshap]

If we can't rank Montreal against teams they never played, how can we assume they would have been a playoff team without those special rules? They were the 12th best team in the East when the league shut down, the worst team in the league the year after the Covid Cup, and as you said, they only played against 6 other teams. Is that not enough to justify a pretty big * next to the whole season, including the playoffs?

Admittedly, calling the entire North Division bottom feeders might be a tad hard harsh, but there was only a single Canadian team that would have had home ice in the first round the previous year, based on P% when the league shut down (Edmonton - 2nd in Pacific, but 5th in West). Toronto was 9th in the East in P% as the 3rd seed in the Atlantic. Vancouver/Calgary/Winnipeg were in a tight wildcard race with Nashville and Minnesota, and it's very possible that only 1 of them would have made it in (as the 3 seed in the Pacific). And then there's Montreal and Ottawa, two teams in line for a top 10 pick. That's potentially 4 teams hoping to move up in the draft lottery the previous year in a 7 team division that didn't have a single team that was top 10 in P% the previous season. Every other division had 8 teams with at least three teams from the top 10 in P% when the league shut down the previous season. Are you really going to pretend there's no difference between these divisions?

And, the Habs consistently have one of the easiest travel schedules in the league, so you're not going to find much sympathy for having to actually travel during the Covid Cup season.

You're right – we don't know how Montreal, or any team, would've done if the divisions would've been flipped another way, or flipped back to the previous alignment.

But we can ask the same question if we transplant today's teams to pre-2013, or the 1990s, or any time divisions were shuffled around. Most NHL teams have found themselves in various divisions, playing different teams of various strengths over the years. The 2020/21 divisions were a one-off, which makes them an easy target. But if we're going to challenge a team's legitimacy based on what might have happened in a different season in a different division, we're opening up a much larger can of worms than just the 2020/21 Montreal Canadiens.

The Habs made the playoffs the same way every team did that season, and every season. Probably fairest to leave it at that.

 

[Turin]

No but that's just because he couldn't play. He was the best goalie in the world.

 

[Grifter3511]

Blah, blah, blah. Not a single argument you've stated here contradicts what I said. Eight team comes out of the West, eight teams come out of the East yet the number of teams are uneven. The rules for that season were for one season but they were the same for all the teams. I understand you're still all bent outta shape over this for whatever reason, definitely not for hating like you said...



One game for all the marbles. Not a best of seven just a one game winner take all. You have to pick between prime Price or prime Lundqvist or let's say... your team gets relegated to the AHL. Who would you pick? Me? no question Carey. And I think most would pick him

p.s. for side argument sakes I'd take prime Roy over prime Price.



That's just crazy talk. That changes everything. What are the rules now? I mean if winning a Cup's no longer a criteria what else has changed? I mean that means others will get in too now. Will eventually Kovalchuk get his picture in? I guess that means every Tom, Dick and Harry will have his picture in now. There once was a time where having your picture in the Habs' dressing room was more prestigious than the Hall of Fame and your number in the rafters a step above that. Now it's just another slap in the face to all of MTL's greats.



But it doesn't mean you started sucking and were unworthy of your contract it just means your body literally broke down and your team is insulated from the effects.



Look amigo I may not have a degree in probability but I do have a host of friends who were a touch more than shady and that spent some time as "guests" of the state. Those numbers you're touting aren't some pure sets formulated by a bunch of dudes working in lab coats with chalk. They are manipulated by a bunch of guys that have ulterior motives. Teams that have large fandoms may see better odds to get marks in.

I may not have a PhD in Probability Theory or Statistics but I know a thing or two about working a mark.

One game to win it all you take Lundqvist. This has been established before and in other places.

Why Henrik Lundqvist is the greatest Game 7 goaltender in history

Which goaltender would you start in a one-game, winner-takes-all scenario? Most would answer a legend like Martin Brodeur, Patrick Roy or Dominik Hasek, but when it comes to Game 7s, there’s no goaltender as great as Henrik Lundqvist.

thehockeynews.com

I'd also add that Lundqvist was more consistent than Price ever was. Price may have the marginally better season high sv % (.933 vs .929 which works out to a whopping 4 more goals every thousand shots) but Lundvist had 7 straight years of save % over .920. Price has 6 seasons total in his career at or above .920.

There was a stretch of about 16-18 months where you could make a case that Price was better than Lundqvist, otherwise it was either equal or Lundqvist was better.

 

[viceroy]

One game to win it all you take Lundqvist. This has been established before and in other places.

Why Henrik Lundqvist is the greatest Game 7 goaltender in history

Which goaltender would you start in a one-game, winner-takes-all scenario? Most would answer a legend like Martin Brodeur, Patrick Roy or Dominik Hasek, but when it comes to Game 7s, there’s no goaltender as great as Henrik Lundqvist.

thehockeynews.com

LOL That writer, Jared Clinton, also says he'd pick Lundqvist over Marty Brodeur, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek.

Fricking joke.

 

[Grifter3511]

LOL That writer, Jared Clinton, also says he'd pick Lundqvist over Marty Brodeur, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek.

Fricking joke.

Ah yes. But you and all your data to support your stance would take Price.

Writer lays out evidence with stats to back his claim: joke

Your opinion based on nothing specifically: correct

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

You're right – we don't know how Montreal, or any team, would've done if the divisions would've been flipped another way, or flipped back to the previous alignment.

But we can ask the same question if we transplant today's teams to pre-2013, or the 1990s, or any time divisions were shuffled around. Most NHL teams have found themselves in various divisions, playing different teams of various strengths over the years. The 2020/21 divisions were a one-off, which makes them an easy target. But if we're going to challenge a team's legitimacy based on what might have happened in a different season in a different division, we're opening up a much larger can of worms than just the 2020/21 Montreal Canadiens.

The Habs made the playoffs the same way every team did that season, and every season. Probably fairest to leave it at that.

Even if you want to leave it at that, the Habs still did not make the playoffs the same way every other team did that season. They made the playoffs the same was the other 3 playoff teams in the North made the playoffs. The other 12 playoff teams had to beat out 4 teams for a playoff spot, in divisions with at least 3 top 10 teams in P% from the previous season.

And if you're willing to admit it's a one-off season with totally unique divisions and rules, what exactly is the problem with me pointing out that Covid led to this bunch of one-off rules for just this single season and calling it the Covid Cup? It's obviously not a normal NHL season, so why pretend it is?

 

[Lshap]

Even if you want to leave it at that, the Habs still did not make the playoffs the same way every other team did that season. They made the playoffs the same was the other 3 playoff teams in the North made the playoffs. The other 12 playoff teams had to beat out 4 teams for a playoff spot, in divisions with at least 3 top 10 teams in P% from the previous season.

And if you're willing to admit it's a one-off season with totally unique divisions and rules, what exactly is the problem with me pointing out that Covid led to this bunch of one-off rules for just this single season and calling it the Covid Cup? It's obviously not a normal NHL season, so why pretend it is?

Yes, there was one less team in the Canadian division, but they also had more strong teams and fewer bad teams (based on your example of previous season results).

The Honda West division had four bottom-feeder teams from the previous season – SJ, LA, Anaheim and Arizona. It was far easier to make the playoffs in that division, where only three teams were considered good.

The Canadian North division had only one team below .500 the previous season: Ottawa. That previous season saw four Canadian teams making the playoffs, with a fifth, Vancouver, barely missing with a .565 P%. In other words, Montreal had more legitimately strong opponents in the Canadian division than they would've had in the West, and the same number they would've faced in the East.

There have been NHL divisions in the past with uneven number of teams, just like there's always been an uneven level of talent between divisions. Nothing about that was unique to 2020/21. In fact, other than the bubbled-off divisions, 2020/21 was the same format as every season. Full season (albeit shortened) followed by four rounds of playoffs. Montreal made it fair and square, in a division that was no easier than many, and tougher than at least one division from that same 2020/21 season.

IMO, 2019/20 was the real 'Covid Cup', because they rebooted the playoffs after five months off, and then had that ridiculous 'play-in'. It was nothing like a real season + playoffs. If you're motivated to dump on Montreal, I'd agree they had no business being anywhere close to the playoffs in 2019/20.