GDT: Devils vs. Flyers - 7:00 PM - MSG+

[njdevils1982]

That Severson/Dano post game interview was really good.

ya it was great…..and sevs really knows his shit

 

[MartyOwns]

the way we, a goal-starved team most of the year, handled butcher this season was criminal.

 

[Omar Little]

the way we, a goal-starved team most of the year, handled butcher this season was criminal.

Not really, the dude can’t skate at an NHL level and as a result can’t defend at that level

 

[njdevils1982]

the way we, a goal-starved team most of the year, handled butcher this season was criminal.

if defensive awareness was criminal i'd give him a life sentence

 

[glenwo2]

I think he means is he one of the 4 most important or best players on this team. I could be wrong though don't yell at me glen.

"By the same token would you really put him above Hughes and Nico talentwise"

That doesn't even remotely sound like @NJDevs26 meant what you said.

If that's what you got from his statement, god bless you then 'cause all I saw was someone assuming that I'm placing Bratt on a pedestal over Hughes, Nico, etc. when I'm not.

 

[NJDevs26]

I’m saying which guy that was named would you put Bratt over as part of the core? If the answer is none then where’s the line you draw for who’s a core player, is Sharangovich one now? I like both Shara and Bratt but I’m a bit of a harder marker when it comes to describing either as a core guy at this point. He didn’t even name Severson fwiw.

 

[MartyOwns]

Not really, the dude can’t skate at an NHL level and as a result can’t defend at that level

if defensive awareness was criminal i'd give him a life sentence

this board cracks me up. the guy is putting up a better than .5PPG, but instead of showcasing him for a trade or pairing him with a rock, it's best that he spends most games in the press box. brilliant!

 

[Edmonton East]

Not really, the dude can’t skate at an NHL level and as a result can’t defend at that level

Yes, but neither could several of the guys that played ahead of him. And those guys were blackholes offensively as well. And older.

Stupid, unjustifiable coaching decision to keep him out for as many games as they did.

To reiterate, the argument is not that Butcher is great though.

 

[Bleedred]

Just saw the Boqvist goal. My goodness that was a filthy bar down snipe. Haven’t seen that from a Devils player in a while.

I had to look at it again. When I first saw it, I thought it was another goofy goal on Lyon, but definitely not. I’d give him a no chance on that for sure. it was a really good shot on a one timer. Haven’t seen much of that from him.

 

[Omar Little]

this board cracks me up. the guy is putting up a better than .5PPG, but instead of showcasing him for a trade or pairing him with a rock, it's best that he spends most games in the press box. brilliant!

We don’t really have any “rocks”. Butcher can’t skate his way out of trouble, he gets buried by aggressive forechecking because he’s slow, and he’s not physical so he’s not good at boxing out people in front of the net nor closing down sustained pressure shifts by the opposing team. I will admit he is good once the puck crosses the other side of the redline. Jury is out on Siegenthaler but it was evident Butcher shouldn’t have been playing over Murray or Kulikov, and from what I’ve seen Butcher isn’t good on his offhand largely cause his skating sucks so when he has to corral the puck and look up ice to make a play people are already on top of him because he’s too slow

 

[glenwo2]

I’m saying which guy that was named would you put Bratt over as part of the core? If the answer is none then where’s the line you draw for who’s a core player, is Sharangovich one now? I like both Shara and Bratt but I’m a bit of a harder marker when it comes to describing either as a core guy at this point. He didn’t even name Severson fwiw.

Shara is earning(or rather I think has earned) the "core player" status.

Bratt earned it with the past 3 seasons(plus this 4th) with his overall play.

The line I draw is this :

above the line : Jack, Nico, Bratt, Shara, Sevs, Ty, and maybe Zacha

on the line : Wood, Kuokk, and Zacha(he does fluctuate between being above and on the line),

below the line : Bastian, Mcleod, Merkley, Boqvist, Andreas Johnsson, Connor Carrick, Matt Tennyson, Butcher, Wedgewood, Dell

 

[billingtons ghost]

Sharangovich is building up quite a collection of nicknames here.

Shara, Rango, Govy, SharanGOALvich, now I see Shango... (From Camille)...

What else am I missing.... I think there was Shags from earlier...

Shaggy might work.

 

[billingtons ghost]

I really don’t go out of my way to blow the opposition, but I do feel slightly bad for Claude Giroux. The guy was definitely a in our 2012 playoff series, but he’s one of the more underrated players of his generation and it’s only because he hasn’t won or even been to the conference finals.

He's a Flyer, so screw him.

That said - it has to suck to be one of the real gamers and be stuck on a team with disappearing Jake Voracek and JVR as your other pillars of talent. Even Couts is a numbskull. Guy does deserve better.

 

[MartyOwns]

We don’t really have any “rocks”. Butcher can’t skate his way out of trouble, he gets buried by aggressive forechecking because he’s slow, and he’s not physical so he’s not good at boxing out people in front of the net nor closing down sustained pressure shifts by the opposing team. I will admit he is good once the puck crosses the other side of the redline. Jury is out on Siegenthaler but it was evident Butcher shouldn’t have been playing over Murray or Kulikov, and from what I’ve seen Butcher isn’t good on his offhand largely cause his skating sucks so when he has to corral the puck and look up ice to make a play people are already on top of him because he’s too slow

and yet somehow, despite all that, he's a .5PPG player and was never worse than a -2 in any game he played. like most things around here, the 'butcher can't skate' meme is based in reality, but overblown and repeated ad nauseum until it loses any meaning it once had.

i'm not even saying he's that great- no question he's a 1 dimensional defenseman. but that 1 dimension is extremely valuable and we pissed it away by scratching him as much as we did. just boneheaded asset management

 

[billingtons ghost]

We don’t really have any “rocks”. Butcher can’t skate his way out of trouble, he gets buried by aggressive forechecking because he’s slow, and he’s not physical so he’s not good at boxing out people in front of the net nor closing down sustained pressure shifts by the opposing team. I will admit he is good once the puck crosses the other side of the redline. Jury is out on Siegenthaler but it was evident Butcher shouldn’t have been playing over Murray or Kulikov, and from what I’ve seen Butcher isn’t good on his offhand largely cause his skating sucks so when he has to corral the puck and look up ice to make a play people are already on top of him because he’s too slow

^This.

I've said it before: Butcher could be a valuable piece to a very good team that needs a #6 PP QB. He's got smarts, a nice deflectable shot, and generally knows what he wants to do with the puck.

He's absolutely cement shoed, so he needs both an excellent, fast, physical partner for his pairing, and an excellent goalie - because he can't win puck battles in the corner, and he cannot be relied upon to actually stop anyone on the rush.

We simply don't have a spot for him because we suck. All of our 'rocks' are busy keeping the puck out of the net for the clowns they've been paired with... and they barely have done that (although it is miles better than last year).

 

[billingtons ghost]

and yet somehow, despite all that, he's a .5PPG player and was never worse than a -2 in any game he played. like most things around here, the 'butcher can't skate' meme is based in reality, but overblown and repeated ad nauseum until it loses any meaning it once had.

i'm not even saying he's that great- no question he's a 1 dimensional defenseman. but that 1 dimension is extremely valuable and we pissed it away by scratching him as much as we did. just boneheaded asset management

I don't know - was the plan to win hockey games? The 'can't skate' meme is a meme because... well.. he hasn't shown the best lateral movement or speed when trying to defend off the rush. He has gotten coned multiple times.

We can assume that:
- Severson ain't coming out of the lineup. Our best all-around D.
- Ty Smith ain't coming out of the lineup. The kid has been amazing.
- Kulikov ain't coming out of the lineup. Stabilized the backend.
- Subban ain't coming out of the lineup. $9m bones and the shot, physicality, skating...
- Murray ain't coming out of the lineup. Has been quietly very very good.

So... who are you going to replace? Vatanan? Ok, Vats gets coned too - and it is arguable which one will be better. I think the coaching staff thought that Vats showed a higher compete level.

You couldn't have played him early season instead of Tennyson, because of the size/speed thing.

At what point, other than right now, when we have no other options, does this guy deserve a slot?

Carrick sat out too - and aside from points (well that one goal is great), he's shown to be a nice addition to the lineup and I'm not sure I'd play Butcher over him.

 

[Zippy316]

I get the idea some of Kuokkanen's points are luck and I am not penciling him higher then a 3rd line winger right now, but the idea of letting Seattle have him for free seems absolutely insane to me.

You can't be giving away a rookie forward scoring at his pace for free. Especially not for Bastian

Kuokkanen is the exact type of forward this team has been missing for a while now. Probably since prime Zubrus.

Just a steady, consistent forward who always finds ways to win his board battles and get his teammates the puck with time and space. It’s not a coincidence all of his lines have been effective and he keeps putting up points.

No way you give that up for free from a 22 year old forward. Fitzgerald really should try to work something out with Seattle where they claim and trade a defender and we give them some picks and young forwards/prospects like Boqvist, Clarke, Thompson, etc.

 

[AfroThunder396]

You can be small, you can be soft, you can be a bad skater, but you can't be all three. Butcher is all three. On a loaded team he would be racking up points as a PP specialist, but on this team he's totally redundant because of Smith.

He was clearly not as good as Smith, Murray, or Kulikov on the left side. Butcher is about the same as Vatanen and better than Tennyson, but playing over those guys would require him playing his off side.

I would go out of my way to convince Seattle to take Butcher, if we have to toss them a mid round pick or C level prospect to do it I would.

 

[Blackjack]

You can be small, you can be soft, you can be a bad skater, but you can't be all three. Butcher is all three. On a loaded team he would be racking up points as a PP specialist, but on this team he's totally redundant because of Smith.

He was clearly not as good as Smith, Murray, or Kulikov on the left side. Butcher is about the same as Vatanen and better than Tennyson, but playing over those guys would require him playing his off side.

I would go out of my way to convince Seattle to take Butcher, if we have to toss them a mid round pick or C level prospect to do it I would.

Butcher's analytics are actually decent, and a 43 point pace is actually quite a lot for a defenseman. I'm starting to think he's actually appealing as a reclamation project. If Francis likes Bastian's game, then it's probably no contest based on age, contract, and years of control, but I could see Francis preferring Butcher.

 

[Maine Fan]

Yep... Well everything but outstanding goaltending. But a win today where thry were in drivers seat and stayed there.

Only a couple dicey times where i felt the flyers may edge out.. But NJ regained momentum back..

At this time in the Devils season it is hard for me to lay fault with the Devils goaltenders. Defense, true defense, has been a problem for the Devils for the past few years and it continues today.

 

[Triumph]

Butcher's analytics are actually decent, and a 43 point pace is actually quite a lot for a defenseman. I'm starting to think he's actually appealing as a reclamation project. If Francis likes Bastian's game, then it's probably no contest based on age, contract, and years of control, but I could see Francis preferring Butcher.

Seattle is going to be fine salary cap-wise - since LTIRetired players are now mostly used by capped out teams instead of floor teams, I don't see how Seattle caps itself out year 1 - they won't have many low-salary players, but they also almost certainly won't have anyone making over $7M on their team. When you don't have those high-salary players it is just a real challenge to get to the cap - you can build a roster of $3.5M salary players and not get there.

That said, Vegas has basically had the same 4th line for 4 years, and looking at that might appeal to Francis and company - they might see Bastian as just that sort of piece.

 

[TheDuke93]

I had to look at it again. When I first saw it, I thought it was another goofy goal on Lyon, but definitely not. I’d give him a no chance on that for sure. it was a really good shot on a one timer. Haven’t seen much of that from him.

That is why I have been bullish on Bo getting a real shot next year. The guy routinely sets up teammates and no one finishes. He never has had anyone give him any high danger chances besides that one PP shot he got from Hughes.

I forgot the wrap around from McLeod that pinballed to him, but that is more so just a goal mouth hockey play.

 

[TheDuke93]

I don't know - was the plan to win hockey games? The 'can't skate' meme is a meme because... well.. he hasn't shown the best lateral movement or speed when trying to defend off the rush. He has gotten coned multiple times.

We can assume that:
- Severson ain't coming out of the lineup. Our best all-around D.
- Ty Smith ain't coming out of the lineup. The kid has been amazing.
- Kulikov ain't coming out of the lineup. Stabilized the backend.
- Subban ain't coming out of the lineup. $9m bones and the shot, physicality, skating...
- Murray ain't coming out of the lineup. Has been quietly very very good.

So... who are you going to replace? Vatanan? Ok, Vats gets coned too - and it is arguable which one will be better. I think the coaching staff thought that Vats showed a higher compete level.

You couldn't have played him early season instead of Tennyson, because of the size/speed thing.

At what point, other than right now, when we have no other options, does this guy deserve a slot?

Carrick sat out too - and aside from points (well that one goal is great), he's shown to be a nice addition to the lineup and I'm not sure I'd play Butcher over him.

Agreed. It is also impossible to shelter both Smith and Butcher. While I don't think Smith would become bad if we stopped sheltering him, I don't want to reduce his o-zone starts at all.

 

[ChicksDigTheTrap]

That is why I have been bullish on Bo getting a real shot next year. The guy routinely sets up teammates and no one finishes. He never has had anyone give him any high danger chances besides that one PP shot he got from Hughes.

I forgot the wrap around from McLeod that pinballed to him, but that is more so just a goal mouth hockey play.

Agree 100%. His versatility as a C or W can be very helpful over the course of a season.

 

[Cheddabombs]

Kuokkanen is the exact type of forward this team has been missing for a while now. Probably since prime Zubrus.

Just a steady, consistent forward who always finds ways to win his board battles and get his teammates the puck with time and space. It’s not a coincidence all of his lines have been effective and he keeps putting up points.

No way you give that up for free from a 22 year old forward. Fitzgerald really should try to work something out with Seattle where they claim and trade a defender and we give them some picks and young forwards/prospects like Boqvist, Clarke, Thompson, etc.

And we can talk about who we think should be exposed or not all day but at the end of the day everything points to them thinking very highly of Kuokkanen. From how Fitz talked about him after acquiring him last year to how he's been a staple on prominent lines, first with Zajac now with Hughes, for the majority of the year.

I am very confident they'll protect Kuokkaken.