Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - season begins!

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

Definitely dont think they are more important than most other factors; just that most teams probably covet the ability to win important ones and have some level of consistency with which to stem possessions from

Id be interested to know if the teams who excel at them season to season see more production or possession within a certain timeframe of said faceoffs; parameters im too sick to really think up right now lol

For sure, I think your bottom 6 centers could easily be your PK centers or someone you toss out when you need a big face-off offensively or defensively late. Similar to what we did with McLeod (f*** him), Nico being a godly two way player is something most teams don't have and we should be glad we have him for those situations as well.

 

[Deviled]

For sure, I think your bottom 6 centers could easily be your PK centers or someone you toss out when you need a big face-off offensively or defensively late. Similar to what we did with McLeod (f*** him), Nico being a godly two way player is something most teams don't have and we should be glad we have him for those situations as well.

And to add along with that, maybe teams who have won it all or gotten close with low faceoff success (like Colorado who you pointed out) could be even further improved upon by raising said numbers to a minimum of an average rate

Edit: which is I guess to say that it shouldnt hurt your team to be or become better at faceoffs, even 5v5

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

And to add along with that, maybe teams who have won it all or gotten close with low faceoff success (like Colorado who you pointed out) could be even further improved upon by raising said numbers to a minimum of an average rate

Colorado is weird because that team had Kadri, so I don't really get how they were THAT bad at faceoffs. MacK is similar to Jack where you probably need someone to step in for him, Landeskog/Rantanen have had historically high faceoff wins for wingers in the past so maybe they did use those guys as well to help MacK

 

[Guttersniped]

The fact that he lasted this long in the lineup shows how good of players he already is. He could of had one bad game and been swapped out for someone or sent down. I think he is on game 9 of his "9 game tryout" so maybe that will keep him buried in the AHL for the rest of the year to help slide his ELC over a year.

If the defense stays relatively healthy with Luke & Pesce returning than there really isn't much room for Casey. Hamilton, Pesce, Luke, Siegenthaler, Dillon, Kovacevic, Nemec are pretty much locks for our group of 7. Hatakka will be out for a hit and Misyul being a call up will probably block Casey out

Casey doesn’t have a “9 game tryout” limit because he’s a 20 year old rookie.

The 10 game limit only matters with 18-19 year old rookies with ELCs that can slide a year.

He’s getting heavily sheltered 5v5 in the NHL, he’ll play a ton in the AHL.

 

[Nubmer6]

Can we just call it the "Jack off convo" for brevity?

No.

No we can't.

 

[billingtons ghost]

Giveaways per season:

This year he has 11 in 8 = 1.3
23-24 = 71 in 62 = 1.14
22-23 = 85 in 78 = 1.08
21-22 = 60 in 49 = 1.22

McDavid giveaways in the same time period

This year, 9 in 6 = 1.5
Last year = 84 in 76 = 1.10
22-23 = 77 in 82 = 0.93
21-22 = 68 in 80 = 0.85


Once again, superstars tend to giveaway pucks once they realize they have to play hero puck. You can blame Jack or you can blame the fact he consistently feels pressured to do something for this team because they've won 1 playoff series and had one playoff appearance in his 5-6 years here.

I understand Jack playing hero in a playoff series and being unable to skate bc he's gripping the stick to tight.
I don't understand risky passes at our blueline or terrible positioning or just plain terrible decisions with and without the puck during the whole season.

That seems lazy, undisciplined, checked out, but mostly just immature... He is a kid.

I mean, McDavid gets knocked on playing stupid too.

I don't need Jack to be Sid, who seemed to come into the league never making the wrong play, and I don't need him to be even Nico, who has similar instincts to Sid.

But please stop being the first five years of Alexei Kovalev, or pre Lemaire Kovalchuk.

If I'm Keefe I challenge him by stapling him to a defensive center ala Haula again until he cuts the shit out of his game. You want to be an elite center? Prove that you can do it without hurting the team every game.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I understand Jack playing hero in a playoff series and being unable to skate bc he's gripping the stick to tight.
I don't understand risky passes at our blueline or terrible positioning or just plain terrible decisions with and without the puck during the whole season.

That seems lazy, undisciplined, checked out, but mostly just immature... He is a kid.

I mean, McDavid gets knocked on playing stupid too.

I don't need Jack to be Sid, who seemed to come into the league never making the wrong play, and I don't need him to be even Nico, who has similar instincts to Sid.

But please stop being the first five years of Alexei Kovalev, or pre Lemaire Kovalchuk.

If I'm Keefe I challenge him by stapling him to a defensive center ala Haula again until he cuts the shit out of his game. You want to be an elite center? Prove that you can do it without hurting the team every game.

I get this but the risk of that is you end up doing what the Islanders did with Barzal. Barzal was a point per game player before Trotz got to Long Island, they start to win and he was a 60 point player with a good 2 way game but he lost all the dynamic ability he had under Doug Weight to break games on his own behind Tavares that one year and it hurt them the 2020/2021 ECF's where Barzal couldn't game break.I don't want Jack to get neutered to that, that's my biggest worry. All you realistically have to do is tell Jack don't play hero puck when you're down or the game is close. He can be himself but once in a while just get the puck in deep after a long shift versus trying to dangle a dman at the opposing blue line to leave the zone. Also like I said, Jack was our best player v Carolina 2 years ago. All the guys were two way forwards got completely demolished, I just think it's just people being upset that elite players having stretches where they look bad and they want Jack to break out ASAP.

 

[billingtons ghost]

“Jack gave me the secret of how to steam broccoli. I never would have figured that sh*t out otherwise.”

Hahaha yeah.

See how well Jack's mentorship worked for ty smith? We should be terrified! Lol

 

[Captain3rdLine]

forces them to use 1 powerplay unit.

I didn’t read your whole post or intend on reading any of it but this caught my eye glazing over it. How in the hell do you figure this? Like what possibly gets you to this conclusion when we have a guy thats around top 10 in the league in faceoff percentage on each power play.

It’s insane to me how little sense this makes. Like there isn’t a single angle you can argue this suggestion from. They have an elite faceoff man on both powerplays, they use their second powerplay as much if not more than other teams. Like what could possibly be the basis for this claim?

I didn’t even want to get into the Jack Hughes discourse again and I don’t really mean to focus on one sentence. But this claim isn’t just baseless, all the evidence would say it’s completely untrue and you threw it in there like fact.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Artemi Panarin, who plays a very similar game to Jack from the wing, has absurd giveaway totals as well


Like, come on guys, we can shit on someone like Palat who deserves it over the first legitimate superstar we had at forward since prime Ilya Kovalchuk

I know it’s not overly relevant to the point you’re trying to make but Jack Hughes doesn’t and shouldn’t play a remotely similar game to Panarin. Entirely different strengths and skillsets.

Second, the thing is Jack’s standard is miles higher than Palat’s and Jack not performing is a significantly bigger issue. So it makes all the sense in the world to focus on it over Palat.

 

[billingtons ghost]

I get this but the risk of that is you end up doing what the Islanders did with Barzal. Barzal was a point per game player before Trotz got to Long Island, they start to win and he was a 60 point player with a good 2 way game but he lost all the dynamic ability he had under Doug Weight to break games on his own behind Tavares that one year and it hurt them the 2020/2021 ECF's where Barzal couldn't game break.I don't want Jack to get neutered to that, that's my biggest worry. All you realistically have to do is tell Jack don't play hero puck when you're down or the game is close. He can be himself but once in a while just get the puck in deep after a long shift versus trying to dangle a dman at the opposing blue line to leave the zone. Also like I said, Jack was our best player v Carolina 2 years ago. All the guys were two way forwards got completely demolished, I just think it's just people being upset that elite players having stretches where they look bad and they want Jack to break out ASAP.

This makes sense in a way, but I don't think that 'turnover rate' shows what's going on here at all.

Yeah there's a penchant for turning the puck over but I think the worry is really the ability to get out of our own zone.

Folks will use Jack's ability to pick the pocket of an opposing player going up ice as defensive ability, and their right that's one thing...

But what Jack doesn't have is an ability to recover the puck is he turns it over in our zone.

McDavid can out muscle someone. Jack can out skate someone, but once he turns it over there seems to be a panic lots of chasing, and an inability to recover.

That's makes it tough on our goalie and D on a daily basis. I don't see him getting into position and stick checking someone in the slot as much as chasing and falling down.

I'm not concerned, but he needs to learn how/when to play it safe and how to recover.

 

[MadDevil]

Jack tries stuff other "safer" players wouldn't because he actually has the ability. When it works, he looks like a superstar. When it doesn't, he's "irresponsible with the puck". Pucks will start going in, he'll get his swagger back, and we'll all look back on this with a chuckle. Well, at least until the playoffs and then he'll be accused of "not being built for the playoffs".

 

[NjDevsRR]

 

[Captain3rdLine]

The one thing I don’t remotely understand related to Jack and faceoffs is why he even takes a single faceoff anymore

There’s no rule saying the center has to take the faceoff. Get his wingers on draws an surely one of them could do better

 

[My3Sons]

This player is the most important player in the franchise. Our entire run for the next 7-10years is entirely dependent on his success.

He is really the only thing we should be talking about. Nothing matters more right now. Nothing even comes close to mattering as much.

Stop with your over simplified critiques. His injury matters to a certain extent but the excuse is running thin and every day that ticks by makes the injury excuse less viable.

And Jack absolutely has an attitude problem. Work ethic, perhaps. TBD on that one. But the evidence doesn’t help him on that front

You don’t even believe your own bullshit. There are 360 minutes in a game and Jack plays maybe 20 of them but sure he is all that matters. Nothing else matters. No other player whatsoever. For someone who ousted about how long you’ve watched games your posts come across as someone with little perspective or experience.

 

[dgibb10]

The one thing I don’t remotely understand related to Jack and faceoffs is why he even takes a single faceoff anymore

There’s no rule saying the center has to take the faceoff. Get his wingers on draws an surely one of them could do better

He doesn't take them when there is a better option.

If Mercer is on his wing Mercer takes them, if Haula is on his wing Haula takes them.

When Cotter was placed on Jack's wing for a game he took the draws (and went like 1-9).

 

[Captain3rdLine]

He doesn't take them when there is a better option.

If Mercer is on his wing Mercer takes them, if Haula is on his wing Haula takes them.

When Cotter was placed on Jack's wing for a game he took the draws (and went like 1-9).

He doesn’t take them when there is someone else with center experience in the NHL. Which is still stupid. I think there’s a damn good chance someone like Bratt could do better than him or possibly whatever other winger is with him. It makes no sense to just keep having him take them instead of trying others when he is consistently so bad at them.

 

[McDuffz88]

This isn't the damn NBA, one player doesn't make an entire roster lmao. If that was the case, the Oilers/Rags/Leafs would have cups by now. It's a star driven league, sure, but Jack Hughes isn't the end all be all for this team. Edmonton fans said this shit with Taylor Hall to discredit him and the guy walked out of that shithole franchise and won a MVP 3 years later. We still don't even have a long term line for Jack after the him/Meier play styles don't mesh.

Agreed, a one man player doesn't make the entire roster but if Hughes plays up to his top potential he puts us from being a great team to an elite one. Right now he's obviously not playing to his top potential and tbh with you I think management has completely overlooked what Jack needs as long term line mates which is why he doesn't have any right now. We originally drafted Holtz because at the time we thought Hughes was going to be less of a goal scorer but Hughes ended up becoming our best goalscorer. Timo & Bratt I think are both best suited for Nico (Bratt can play with anyone but Nico/Meier shouldn't be seperated). The idea at the time was to get Hughes a big power forward who can score but we completely overlooked the fact that Timo wants to carry play just like Hughes does & putting them together negates their best talents. I think what Hughes ultimately needs for long term line mates aren't top end offensive superstars. I think Hughes will be at his best with a fast player who can keep up with him but take all defensive responsibilities (faceoffs, board battles, forecheck & have a little bit of offense). Give him 2 players who are big, fast, defensive and a little bit of offensive supporters. These players don't need to be top 6 talents. They just need to be able to control the board so Hughes has the ability to free roam and do whatever he wants. Let them cover for his deficiencies. A center/winger which can take faceoffs for him with another player who can play the body & screen the goalie playing great defensive players will do wonders for Hughes. Let him drive his own line with a great supporting cast. These don't need to be ppg players.

 

[Bleedred]

That poster is reminding me of that one that used to get on here and tell us how great a future the Coyotes had in 2017.

But the sign up date predates that. I think that poster's name was NJRockinRoller or something. At least at one time it was.

 

[NJDevs26]

I’m baffled at how anybody could be going full Chicken Little over this season so far. We’re 5-2-1 and leading our division!

How bad would this be if we were losing?!

In part because it's HF, and in part because people are justifiably on edge over the same guys who were disappointing last year potentially being a disappointment this year with Jack on top of that list. That said, I do think quite a bit of the recent discourse is jumping the shark and I've been critical of Jack too.

It is only eight games, and tbh I think he's trying - he's just not been good or locked in confident so far, I'd like to think his decision making offensively will improve cause that's supposed to be a feature in his game, not a bug.

 

[dgibb10]

He doesn’t take them when there is someone else with center experience in the NHL. Which is still stupid. I think there’s a damn good chance someone like Bratt could do better than him or possibly whatever other winger is with him. It makes no sense to just keep having him take them instead of trying others when he is consistently so bad at them.

Except they HAVE tried others.

When there is a better option, they use it. (see, Haula, Mercer, Cotter, etc). Very clear they have no qualms moving Jack out of the dot if there's a better guy there

The fact that they DON'T use Bratt means he isn't better.

Bratt ISN'T used on faceoffs because he ISN'T GOOD at faceoffs either. And it's not worth wasting practice time in the hopes that maybe in a few years he can be what? a 40% faceoff guy?

What on earth gives you the idea that Bratt would be better in the dot? His years of experience and practice taking them?

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Except they HAVE tried others.

When there is a better option, they use it. (see, Haula, Mercer, Cotter, etc). Very clear they have no qualms moving Jack out of the dot if there's a better guy there

The fact that they DON'T use Bratt means he isn't better.

Bratt ISN'T used on faceoffs because he ISN'T GOOD at faceoffs either. And it's not worth wasting practice time in the hopes that maybe in a few years he can be what? a 40% faceoff guy?

What on earth gives you the idea that Bratt would be better in the dot? His years of experience and practice taking them?

You’re saying when there’s a better option. It’s not when there’s a better option. It’s when there’s a guy who’s played center. Like winger’s can’t take faceoffs.

We have no clue if Bratt is or isn’t good at faceoffs but he has a better base to work from with a lower center of gravity, and being stronger on his stick and stronger in general.

 

[dgibb10]

You’re saying when there’s a better option. It’s not when there’s a better option. It’s when there’s a guy who’s played center. Like winger’s can’t take faceoffs.

We have no clue if Bratt is or isn’t good at faceoffs but he has a better base to work from with a lower center of gravity, and being stronger on his stick and stronger in general.

Perhaps because trying to turn a winger into a faceoff guy at age 27 is f***ing stupid and a waste of time.

And that perhaps guys who have spent their lives taking faceoffs are better at taking faceoffs (shocking, I know)

 

[My3Sons]

That poster is reminding me of that one that used to get on here and tell us how great a future the Coyotes had in 2017.

But the sign up date predates that. I think that poster's name was NJRockinRoller or something. At least at one time it was.

Ok you are confusing other posters with yourself. It was you who told us over and over again last season how great the Coyotes were because they were “hardworking”. All you talked about were the “hardworking” Coyotes. You drove that one poor poster to change his username to my3CoyotesDoggo.

 

[Devs3cups]