Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXIV

[Eggtimer]

Nah. We shouldn’t and won’t be adding 3 forwards when we already have too many as it is. Nico is used exactly as he should be. McLeod is a 4th liner and is used as a 4th liner.

When did I say we should be using an all rookie 3rd line? If you believe in Zetterlund at all, he will be a guy getting a chance in a role like that. You want him in the minors again? Holtz will be graduating to the NHL. Wood will be back.

Tatar does plenty of little things well and isn’t particularly great at one thing. He’s made a career of being a very solid all around player, you just have extreme bias against him and can’t see what he actually does well.

Tatar is redundent and does not produce enough to counter balance the thimhs he is not good at. He is an overall decent player but on this current roster , on the Devils , we would be 1000 times better off with a player like Nuke instead of him .

 

[Hisch13r]

Nico’s market value up to 8.6 on Dom’s model and that’s with being dragged down by last years horror show and a mediocre 19-20.

 

[Hisch13r]

Tatar is redundent and does not produce enough to counter balance the thimhs he is not good at. He is an overall decent player but on this current roster , on the Devils , we would be 1000 times better off with a player like Nuke instead of him .

Zacha’s 100% on the move. Johnsson probably is too. Tatar won’t be redundant then. There’s no reason he and Nuke can’t coexist on the same team

 

[Bleedred]

Nico’s market value up to 8.6 on Dom’s model and that’s with being dragged down by last years horror show and a mediocre 19-20.

Yeah, but I wonder if his contract is as bad as the deal Kevin Hayes currently has tho?

 

[Eggtimer]

Zacha and Johnsson both likely go. Wood comes back, possibly both Zetterlund and Holtz make the team. Where is the room for more than one additional forward?

Sharangovich-Hughes-New Guy
Bratt-Nico-Holtz
Tatar-Mercer-Zetterlund
Wood-McLeod-Bastian

That’s with Boqvist losing his role too. We’re jam packed. I’m in favor of going after Nichushkin or Nino. Both of those guys get a top 6 role if added. This team just doesn’t have much room even after subtracting multiple players.

That’s when you trade pieces from a position of strength to address weakness. Who is to say we have to use all our in house prospects amd shoehorn them into a roster spot just because ? Yes , it’s vital to build your roster through the draft and construct a team from within , but you cannot expect and rely on your prospects that are succeeding are perfect fits in the roster for how a contending team is built. You cannot pick amd choose who is going to break out and who is not.
If all our LW prospects hit and are good enough for the nhl , woild it make sense to use them throughout the lineup , even if they are all finesse players sub 6’ and 170lbs. None are right handed or know how to play center but we have to find spots for all of them? I am beping extreme with my example but who is to say that we cannot or should not trade guys for other players that fill the roster better? If Bahl and Okhotyuk both develop , then trade one for a RHD if it fills a bigger need. Am I wrong thinkimg this way?

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Tatar is redundent and does not produce enough to counter balance the thimhs he is not good at. He is an overall decent player but on this current roster , on the Devils , we would be 1000 times better off with a player like Nuke instead of him .

I want Nichushkin. When was this choice ever presented and how does having Tatar signed for 1 more year prevent us from getting him? He’s done exactly dick in his career in the postseason too for people hung up on that narrative.

We’ll likely be shedding Zacha and Johnsson. Tatar will have a place next year and we can move on when his contract is up if we choose to.

 

[Eggtimer]

Zacha’s 100% on the move. Johnsson probably is too. Tatar won’t be redundant then. There’s no reason he and Nuke can’t coexist on the same team

They can, and there are far worse options than Tatar , but I just think there are far better options that for better on the roster.

 

[Buck Dancer]

You see what you want to see. Tatar wins puck battles all the time and facilitates possession. There are stats you can look at that will show you some of the impact he has made in his career that you won’t understand and will call pie charts.

I agree, hits are meaningless. But they’re something you seem to care about when convenient. Who gives shit about “instilling fear”, whatever that means. Your narrative is almost entirely built upon “being benched in the postseason” and the fact that he’s European. He isn’t “soft”.

This is why you and I will never see eye to eye. You seem to think that the equivalent of having a good team means having good players up and down your lineup where I view a good team based on having different players play different roles. The NHL is one of the most physical sports out there because of the speed these mamouth players are able to reach on skates. If you don't think that being physical is important and you would rather build a pond hockey team where stick checks aren't even a thing, we'd have one of the best 3rd lines in the league. unfortunately for us, that's not the reality of it all.

Being a physical team is super important and you'll get to watch physical hockey as soon as the playoffs get underway. When watching those games, if you can tell me that we wouldn't have our lunch stolen from us with our soft 3rd line, I just don't know what to tell you other than you're not watching the same sport I am. Being physical isn't just about knocking a guy on his ass, it can do a bunch of things to a team that can't be added up on one of your spreads sheets. It's a momemtum changer, it makes the opposition move the puck a little quicker (aka turnover), it can legit create a direct turnover by muscling an opponent off the puck, it can great scoring chances by screaning a goalie, it gets the crowd going, etc, etc, etc.

For a fan of a team that had one of the deadliest hitters to ever play the game and actually say with a straight face that being physical is this overblown thing is straight up weird. If you didn't get it than and you're not getting now... you'll never get it.

 

[Eggtimer]

I want Nichushkin. When was this choice ever presented and how does having Tatar signed for 1 more year prevent us from getting him? He’s done exactly dick in his career in the postseason too for people hung up on that narrative.

We’ll likely be shedding Zacha and Johnsson. Tatar will have a place next year and we can move on when his contract is up if we choose to.

If I had a choice to move Tatar and replace his roster spot with a type of player like a Marchment , then of course I’d be all over it. There are worse thugs to have Tatar still in the lineup but if given an opportunity to , I’d replace him in a second with the type of player I mentioned.

Havimg a good roster is more than slapping together 12 forwards who you thnk will have the most points . Doesnt work like that.
How do you think a forward group of all Magniapane‘s would work out ? They all score 35g each for a total of 420 goals?
I do not , nor will I ever understand how people thnk our 3rd line doesn’t need a complete overhaul. And cannot see how easy it is to play against our current guys like Johnson Tatar and Zacha. Now watch . Tatar will score a goal tonight and it will be “SEE SEE ! Suck it Tatar haters ! GRiT need MoRE gRiT lolllo” . Then he and his line get man handled and cost us 4 goals.

 

[Buck Dancer]

Perennial playoff scratch is just ridiculous hyperbole. He got scratched once in Vegas when he clearly didn’t fit after they traded a ton to get him. And he got scratched after 5 games in MTL when they went on a fluke run. He was on one of the best lines in the entire NHL in the years before that. Sure, “perennial playoff scratch” is a fair way to sum up his career.

Tatar seems to be one of our only forwards that has a clue what to do along the boards. I constantly see him making the correct play to exit the dzone and to facilitate possession in the ozone. The puck just isn’t going in when he’s on the ice nor is the goalie making saves when he’s out there.

If that right there doesn't raise your red flags and leave you with more questions than answers, again... I don't know what to tell you.

Do you us healthy scratching one of Hughes, Hischier, Mercer, etc in favour of a career AHL'er in Jake Evans? If your answer is no, that's all you need to know about Tomas Tatar, the player who was benched in favour of a scrub on a team that went to the cup finals, fluke or not.

 

[EnglishDevil]

Tatar, Johnsson & Zacha can all be traded for literal peanuts as far as I'm concerned, none of them contribute anything particularly meaningful.

I'm sure we'll still be stuck with at least one next year, but they're JAGs. I don't think we'd be appreciably worse-off with the likes of Holtz, Zetterlund, Thompson or Boqvist taking their place(s).

 

[Hisch13r]

They can, and there are far worse options than Tatar , but I just think there are far better options that for better on the roster.

I really don't think there are. The names that have been thrown around are like Marchment and Nino. Marchment's going to get PAID and he's not going to sign on to be a 3rd liner. Nino's a bit better now but Nino now is basically exactly what Tatar was last year. I'd rather stick with the guy we have who is going to be up in a years time than getting locked in longer on Nino. Looking at other upcoming UFAs there's guys like Palat, Smith, Burakovsky. None of them are signing on to be 3rd liners.

 

[Rydev]

how much would Valeri Nichushkin cost?
5/6 years at 5.5-6m?

Im just guessing and have no idea, really

 

[Hisch13r]

how much would Valeri Nichushkin cost?
5/6 years at 5.5-6m?

Im just guessing and have no idea, really

He's a weird one because he only has one great offensive year which is this year. Guys generally get paid mostly on production but so much of his value is outside of production. I could see him being more in the 5-5.5 range instead. 5/6 years seems right.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

This is why you and I will never see eye to eye. You seem to think that the equivalent of having a good team means having good players up and down your lineup where I view a good team based on having different players play different roles. The NHL is one of the most physical sports out there because of the speed these mamouth players are able to reach on skates. If you don't think that being physical is important and you would rather build a pond hockey team where stick checks aren't even a thing, we'd have one of the best 3rd lines in the league. unfortunately for us, that's not the reality of it all.

Being a physical team is super important and you'll get to watch physical hockey as soon as the playoffs get underway. When watching those games, if you can tell me that we wouldn't have our lunch stolen from us with our soft 3rd line, I just don't know what to tell you other than you're not watching the same sport I am. Being physical isn't just about knocking a guy on his ass, it can do a bunch of things to a team that can't be added up on one of your spreads sheets. It's a momemtum changer, it makes the opposition move the puck a little quicker (aka turnover), it can legit create a direct turnover by muscling an opponent off the puck, it can great scoring chances by screaning a goalie, it gets the crowd going, etc, etc, etc.

For a fan of a team that had one of the deadliest hitters to ever play the game and actually say with a straight face that being physical is this overblown thing is straight up weird. If you didn't get it than and you're not getting now... you'll never get it.

You also can’t seem to tell the difference between good physical players and useless physical players. Who the hell doesn’t want Nichushkin? No one. I just don’t want to sign a Goodrow to a shitty deal because he is physical. He played on a line with two players that are physical and actually good.

 

[Guttersniped]

Johnston had a ridiculous year this year. He missed his entire draft-eligible campaign because of injury, and no one realized how good he had gotten. I'd say he's certainly int he conversation with Holtz. They're different players though, Johnston is not going to score as much as Holtz, but he's also a very good two-way center, which ups his overall value.

Well Dallas new, because the drafted Johnston 28th. Few teams have done as well as the Stars at helping themselves to filthy sexy offensive production in recent drafts (must be nice).

That was a nice pick trade as they turned the 15th pick into Johnston, Artem Grushnikov and Jack Bar. We’ll see how that group turns out vs Cossa.

 

[Hisch13r]

Well Dallas new, because the drafted Johnston 28th. Few teams have done as well as the Stars at helping themselves to filthy sexy offensive production in recent drafts (must be nice).

That was a nice pick trade as they turned the 15th pick into Johnston, Artem Grushnikov and Jack Bar. We’ll see how that group turns out vs Cossa.

Picked up Stankoven as well last year. Really would be nice to have some nice picks again.

 

[Oneiro]

On a healthy squad, I'd really like to see Bratt-Hischier-Mercer. Or at least as an experiment to close out the season and maybe let Zacha cosplay as a center to build his stock.

Because of injuries, Mercer hasn't spent much time with Nico (61:19). We already know he and Bratt can make music together (221:31) and all three complement each other stylistically. I think it could work well.

 

[Hisch13r]

On a healthy squad, I'd really like to see Bratt-Hischier-Mercer. Or at least as an experiment to close out the season and maybe let Zacha cosplay as a center to build his stock.

Because of injuries, Mercer hasn't spent much time with Nico (61:19). We already know he and Bratt can make music together (221:31) and all three complement each other stylistically. I think it could work well.

Say we end up grabbing Nuke and stick with Boqvist as the 3C. I wouldn't mind going Nuke-Jack-Yegor, Bratt-Nico, Mercer, Tatar-Boqvist-Holtz

 

[Oneiro]

Say we end up grabbing Nuke and stick with Boqvist as the 3C. I wouldn't mind going Nuke-Jack-Yegor, Bratt-Nico, Mercer, Tatar-Boqvist-Holtz

Yup, exactly what I was thinking.

Let the third line actually get the soft minutes when you have last change and see if Holtz takes a top 6 job away.

 

[Hisch13r]

Yup, exactly what I was thinking.

I think I might prefer Holtz in that spot and Mercer back at 3C but the other is still fine to me

 

[Buck Dancer]

You guys waste way too much time arguing about Tatar. I don’t think they MUST replace him this offseason but I’d bet money he’s not here after his contract is up, especially with declining production offensively.

Having a good team doesn't only mean it's having a good top line or a good goaltender. The amount of rope we're giving to guys who bring absolutely nothing to the table is part of why we suck. It might not be the main reason but it's not far from it.

Add more wins with a competent goaltender, more wins if we're harder to play against, more wins if we can add interior players, more wins if we can have an average PP, etc... at the end of the day, fixing all those issues that has us at the bottom of the standing can have us in a playoff spot.

You also can’t seem to tell the difference between good physical players and useless physical players. Who the hell doesn’t want Nichushkin? No one. I just don’t want to sign a Goodrow to a shitty deal because he is physical. He played on a line with two players that are physical and actually good.

I'll take a guy who can play a key role on our PK, or win faceoffs, or block a shot once in a blue moon, or go hard to the net, or be a legit threat on the forecheck/dump in, etc over the space junk we have on our 3rd line, any day of the week. All the guys we've stated can't do any of that which means other players have to pick up the slack.

That's why you have Michael freaking McLeod taking important faceoffs all the time, which has this board bitch and moan as to why he's out there as often as he is, or Nico looking to play goalie on the PK by trying to block bombs from the point and thus risking the fact that he'll be in a walking boot for next 2 weeks to 3 months.

Loading your team of one dimensional, bordeline useless players, is not a good look and we have a bunch of guys like that. Sure, they skate fast and they seem to be hustling like crazy but their direct impact on a hockey game is irrelevant outside of the point they'll put up once every 5 games.

 

[Oneiro]

I think I might prefer Holtz in that spot and Mercer back at 3C but the other is still fine to me

I could see that, my only reservation being that Nico is likely going to see tougher minutes relative to Jack.

 

[Buck Dancer]

Say we end up grabbing Nuke and stick with Boqvist as the 3C. I wouldn't mind going Nuke-Jack-Yegor, Bratt-Nico, Mercer, Tatar-Boqvist-Holtz

If we're playing on the road, opposing HC's will have a field day with that 3rd line. I'd be sending my top line against those guys every chance I got, which would lead to alot of offensive zone time for the other team.

 

[Hisch13r]

I could see that, my only reservation being that Nico is likely going to see tougher minutes relative to Jack.

Linemate quality is the more important factor than competition. Some players will see tougher minutes but it's relatively equal across different levels of competition. On the other hand you'll spend the majority of you time with your linemates. For example during a game you might see 50% of your time against a top pair (I think that's pretty extreme as well), 33% against mid pair, and 17% against bottom pair but on the other hand you're going to spend 80-90% of your time with your linemates. Holtz being with Nico and Bratt is more important than them sometimes facing top competition. Zone starts are also not as big of a factor since the vast majority of shifts are NZ or on the fly starts.

This is a bit different since they're Dmen but the premise still holds. A guy like McAvoy faces top competition a ton and even that is only 41% of his time