Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part IV

[Brodeur]

went to capfriendly sharks and instantly wondered what in the f*** are they attempting with this roster?!

wow. is there a future?

Grier inherited a rough situation, we'll see if he gets enough time to see it through. I think they internally knew they just had to be patient and wait for some of the inherited deals to expire. Right now I think I'd just compile prospects for another couple drafts and then look to turn the corner in the summer of 2025.

Every time I look at the Sharks roster, I do chuckle knowing that there were a few people on here strongly advocating for a Kevin Labanc offer sheet in the summer of 2019.

 

[Emperoreddy]

 

[McDuffz88]

Green has apparently said he's a head coach (I think I heard this on the Winnipeg feed). I'd be surprised if he came back as anything other than a head coach here.

But, I also think there's a very good chance Green is the head coach next year. Fitz has identified changes he'd like to see with the team, but I think his issue is with player execution, not coaching. My guess is that Lindy was trying to get the team to do better with puck management, making smarter decisions, etc., but the players just weren't executing. Green already seems like a more hard nosed guy - and he provides continuity with what we know Fitz liked during Lindy's stint. I think that will appeal to Fitz. I don't think Fitz is looking for a wholesale change in how the team plays.

As I've stated before, I'm more in favor of an offense through defense approach, and I'd be all for bringing back Julien. But, I think we'll need to see a new GM before we see a philosophy change.

If Fitz rolls with Green next year. If things go bad Fitz is risking his job big time. I promise you instead of firing coach chants, you will hear Fire Fitz chants. This fanbase is like rabid dogs when it comes to trying the same old failure over & over expecting different results. If Fitz lands a new coach that's one thing. But this fanbase won't put up with a Green failure because A) He was here during the failure of this season B) His PP is proven to be incompetent C) Team didn't get that coach bump when naming him the coach and D) the horror stories from other fanbases. Our fanbase just won't have it and it will be a see, told ya so moment for Fitz and the fans.

 

[tailfins]

If Fitz rolls with Green next year. If things go bad Fitz is risking his job big time. I promise you instead of firing coach chants, you will hear Fire Fitz chants. This fanbase is like rabid dogs when it comes to trying the same old failure over & over expecting different results. If Fitz lands a new coach that's one thing. But this fanbase won't put up with a Green failure because A) He was here during the failure of this season B) His PP is proven to be incompetent C) Team didn't get that coach bump when naming him the coach and D) the horror stories from other fanbases. Our fanbase just won't have it and it will be a see, told ya so moment for Fitz and the fans.

I get the nervousness about Green. I'm not advocating for him.

Just looking at the situation, I think Fitz will value continuity. IMO, that means Green has the inside track on the job unless / until there's a coach who's a clear upgrade (e.g., Sullvan).

But, if Sullivan isn't available, who would you pick? Peters? Babcock? Julien? Yeo? Berube? Boucher? Muller? Bylsma? None of those guys scream must hire.

And, if Fitz hires someone who has little / no NHL experience, isn't he in the same spot? If that inexperienced coach doesn't work out, I don't think that Fitz gets another shot at hiring in that case either.

 

[Guttersniped]

Look how long it took us. They were in every bit of as bad shape in 2022 as we were in 2015. And we won two first overall picks in that time. They were probably in even worse shape.

Anything can happen in 10 years, but I’d say easily 5 before they’re good again. EASILY. I don’t think the most optimistic would argue that. Look how many years it’s taken the Red Wings. This is the closest they’ve been to the playoffs since 2016?

That’s how bad off they were.

Look at the Ducks. They’ve been bad for even longer and are still really bad.

The Ducks first missed the playoffs in 2018-19 and the Sharks first missed the playoffs in 2019-20, it’s not that far apart.

The Karlsson trade obviously set the Sharks back, the 2020 3OA (plus all the other assets) would have helped.

A Hertl trade, instead of re-signing him and later dumping him, would also have helped.

The Ducks have used 8 1sts (#2, #3, #6, #9, #10, #22, #27, #29) and 8 2nds in their 5 non-playoff drafts.

The Sharks have used 5 1sts (#4, #7, #26, #27, #31) and 5 2nds in their 4 non-playoff drafts.

The Sharks only had two early picks because of Karlsson and they also traded their 2022 1st (#11) to Arizona for #27 and two 2nds.

The Ducks aren’t that far off to me, it’s a question of team building and their elite young guys getting a little older.

San Jose has screwed up the rebuilding process more and doesn’t draft as well as the Ducks do (few teams do).

 

[MartyOwns]

i might prefer andy greene to travis at this point. having said that, i don't think keeping travis on for another year is the end of the world.

 

[Guadana]

Look how long it took us. They were in every bit of as bad shape in 2022 as we were in 2015. And we won two first overall picks in that time. They were probably in even worse shape.

Anything can happen in 10 years, but I’d say easily 5 before they’re good again. EASILY. I don’t think the most optimistic would argue that. Look how many years it’s taken the Red Wings. This is the closest they’ve been to the playoffs since 2016?

That’s how bad off they were.

Look at the Ducks. They’ve been bad for even longer and are still really bad.

You should check who Smith and Celebrini are. Devils were good for the third Jacks year.
After this draft they will have their “Jack, Nico, Luke” and solid second pair future defenseman. May be even first pair. Musty is a huge prospect. After this draft they will already have it.
Detroit is taking some much time because they have no potential first-second line young center.
So five years - may be. Smith and Celebrini\Lindstrom are not NHLers still. But what we mean when we are talking about “competitive ”. 5 years before play off? May be. 10 years before contending for cup? May be. But they will not be bottom team for five or more years. 3-4 - I can believe. Of course goaltending and management will make a lot of impact. Buffalo can’t crack play off with huge talent on the roster. So there is still the chance they will not be competitive even in the next ten years still. But they should act like idiots for that.

 

[JrFischer54]

call me crazy, but i am not convinced that nashville doesn't have a change of plans & is willing to move askarov this summer to extend saros. or trotz sets a price on the latter so high that nobody will meet it & he just keeps both, kicking that can down the road til next summer. i just think the team surpassing expectations could lead to him rethinking things.

honestly can see them keeping and resigning saros why move on from a good thing keep askarov as the backup until ready to take over and move saros with years left on his new contract

In all fairness to Kähkönen, he was 23-25 years old when he was with Minnesota and still was over .900% every season. It wasn't until SJ that his numbers dipped below 900. I think most goalies hit their prime in their late 20s, we have to remember that he is still just 27yo.

i didnt even know that is how old he is. would look terrible if fitz moves on from him and he rebounds on a different team. but also would look bad if fitz did keep him and he reverts back to san jose level. definite a tough spot for him

 

[Guadana]

The Ducks first missed the playoffs in 2018-19 and the Sharks first missed the playoffs in 2019-20, it’s not that far apart.

The Karlsson trade obviously set the Sharks back, the 2020 3OA (plus all the other assets) would have helped.

A Hertl trade, instead of re-signing him and later dumping him, would also have helped.

The Ducks have used 8 1sts (#2, #3, #6, #9, #10, #22, #27, #29) and 8 2nds in their 5 non-playoff drafts.

The Sharks have used 5 1sts (#4, #7, #26, #27, #31) and 5 2nds in their 4 non-playoff drafts.

The Sharks only had two early picks because of Karlsson and they also traded their 2022 1st (#11) to Arizona for #27 and two 2nds.

The Ducks aren’t that far off to me, it’s a question of team building and their elite young guys getting a little older.

San Jose has screwed up the rebuilding process more and doesn’t draft as well as the Ducks do (few teams do).

Ducks are huge. Great drafting, great trading. Having Mintyukov, Karlsson, McTavish, Gauthier, Zegras and some other young players like Zellweger, Luneau, Gaucher is something special. They need time only.

SJ started after Grier traded Meier. After that they found very good pieces. And they have two top ten picks this year and even if this draft isn’t great(I’m not so sure, it’s an old song), top ten is very good. May be not as good as year before but still as good as some recent drafts.

 

[McDuffz88]

I get the nervousness about Green. I'm not advocating for him.

Just looking at the situation, I think Fitz will value continuity. IMO, that means Green has the inside track on the job unless / until there's a coach who's a clear upgrade (e.g., Sullvan).

But, if Sullivan isn't available, who would you pick? Peters? Babcock? Julien? Yeo? Berube? Boucher? Muller? Bylsma? None of those guys scream must hire.

And, if Fitz hires someone who has little / no NHL experience, isn't he in the same spot? If that inexperienced coach doesn't work out, I don't think that Fitz gets another shot at hiring in that case either.

I would go Berube over Green for sure and not even think twice. One is a coach who hasn't had a good track record and the other is a Stanley Cup winning coach. He also happens to be a hard ass which is exactly what this team needs.

 

[Bleedred]

You should check who Smith and Celebrini are. Devils were good for the third Jacks year.
After this draft they will have their “Jack, Nico, Luke” and solid second pair future defenseman. May be even first pair. Musty is a huge prospect. After this draft they will already have it.
Detroit is taking some much time because they have no potential first-second line young center.
So five years - may be. Smith and Celebrini\Lindstrom are not NHLers still. But what we mean when we are talking about “competitive ”. 5 years before play off? May be. 10 years before contending for cup? May be. But they will not be bottom team for five or more years. 3-4 - I can believe. Of course goaltending and management will make a lot of impact. Buffalo can’t crack play off with huge talent on the roster. So there is still the chance they will not be competitive even in the next ten years still. But they should act like idiots for that.

They hopefully won’t be a bottom team in the league in 5 years, but I don’t see them being a playoff team that soon.

They could have some attainable success and make the playoffs once, much like we did in 17-18. I don’t think it’ll be sustainable success before that. They’ve got a ways to go.

They still have leftover albatrosses from Wilson in Vlasic (will be a buyout in the offseason probably) and Couture, who was a good player still last year, but missed almost the entire year and will be 35 in a couple of days. And he’s still pretty expensive.

It’s gonna take some patience over there.

We weren’t really a good team in Jack’s third year. We were in an okay team, but still finished with one of the worst records in the league.

 

[glenwo2]

What if I call Ottawa and ask really politely?

They'll more than likely tell you to politely get lost and then add "Ben LoveJoy sucks and is as talented as MacDermid" for good measure.

 

[AfroThunder396]

Green has apparently said he's a head coach (I think I heard this on the Winnipeg feed). I'd be surprised if he came back as anything other than a head coach here.

But, I also think there's a very good chance Green is the head coach next year. Fitz has identified changes he'd like to see with the team, but I think his issue is with player execution, not coaching. My guess is that Lindy was trying to get the team to do better with puck management, making smarter decisions, etc., but the players just weren't executing. Green already seems like a more hard nosed guy - and he provides continuity with what we know Fitz liked during Lindy's stint. I think that will appeal to Fitz. I don't think Fitz is looking for a wholesale change in how the team plays.

As I've stated before, I'm more in favor of an offense through defense approach, and I'd be all for bringing back Julien. But, I think we'll need to see a new GM before we see a philosophy change.

He can call himself whatever he wants, the fact is that he was named interim head coach. He was hired as an assistant coach and that's his current position, he's just assuming the responsibilities of the head coach until the end of the season.

Totally disagree with your assessment here. Fitzgerald is not going to say anything about these guys publicly. He's still a hockey player at his core and still loyal, sometimes to a fault. But it's clear he's not an idiot and sees things the way that fans do, there's no way he's happy with the coaching performance.

He's been shuffling coaches around since he got here. Fitz cleaned house after Hynes left and there's been turnover behind the bench every season - Recchi, Kowalski, Brunette, Green. He was smart enough to move on from Nas and not continue on with the Hynes system. And we know Ruff was never meant to be a permanent answer, so why are we going to keep using guys and systems that have worn out their welcome? Green is only here because Brunette left and we needed a guy to fill that spot.

Fitzgerald IS the continuity - he's the long term GM, he's the one with a vision for this team, he's the one that chose the players, he's the one that got a vote of confidence from ownership this season. He has talked extensively about how young teams mature and evolve into contenders. Ruff and his system have served their purpose, it's time to play big boy hockey.

 

[Guadana]

Overall I should say again and again that Rogalski should be fired. Two average goaltenders are making wonders with the same roster. Rogalski is an evil witch who turned all of our goalies into the pumpkins.
I really think Blackwood and VV will do better with time, better coach and therapy after wounds, which Rogalski left them.

 

[Bleedred]

The Ducks first missed the playoffs in 2018-19 and the Sharks first missed the playoffs in 2019-20, it’s not that far apart.

The Karlsson trade obviously set the Sharks back, the 2020 3OA (plus all the other assets) would have helped.

A Hertl trade, instead of re-signing him and later dumping him, would also have helped.

The Ducks have used 8 1sts (#2, #3, #6, #9, #10, #22, #27, #29) and 8 2nds in their 5 non-playoff drafts.

The Sharks have used 5 1sts (#4, #7, #26, #27, #31) and 5 2nds in their 4 non-playoff drafts.

The Sharks only had two early picks because of Karlsson and they also traded their 2022 1st (#11) to Arizona for #27 and two 2nds.

The Ducks aren’t that far off to me, it’s a question of team building and their elite young guys getting a little older.

San Jose has screwed up the rebuilding process more and doesn’t draft as well as the Ducks do (few teams do).

The Ducks also got a bit of a head start on their blow up process though. I can’t remember what year they finally said enough is enough, but the Sharks didn’t do that until 2022-2023.

They missed the playoffs three years in a row, but they were still actively competing. They had just made the conference finals the year before that and tried to be good again the next year. DeBoer got fired in November. They were still trying to be good in 20-21, but were just failing masterfully at it.

By 2021-2022 you’d have to think some of the people in the organization, if not most of them knew the team was done and were going to be terrible, but they even started that year out 4-0-0 and I think they were also the first team that year to really have a covid outbreak that had a lot of guys missing at one point. And yes, like you said, they signed Hertl that year to an extension, further sandbagging themselves from the tank. I don’t get it at all, I never did. I never understood why he wanted to even sign there with what was on the horizon and what was already underway.

The Sharks before 2022-2023 were a bit like us in the final couple of years of Lou and the Red Wings in the final few years under Holland. They kept missing the playoffs, but it wasn’t really by design.

 

[Guadana]

They hopefully won’t be a bottom team in the league in 5 years, but I don’t see them being a playoff team that soon.

They could have some attainable success and make the playoffs once, much like we did in 17-18. I don’t think it’ll be sustainable success before that. They’ve got a ways to go.

They still have leftover albatrosses from Wilson in Vlasic (will be a buyout in the offseason probably) and Couture, who was a good player still last year, but missed almost the entire year and will be 35 in a couple of days. And he’s still pretty expensive.

It’s gonna take some patience over there.

We weren’t really a good team in Jack’s third year. We were in an okay team, but still finished with one of the worst records in the league.

How about Jacks fourth year. Like I said, they will already have two top line centers, top line talented and big winger, shifty winger with solid top six potential in Eklund. two defensemen with top pair ceiling(and pretty good floor) - Shakir and their second pick on this draft, and some depth pieces. At least two centers with middle six potential in Lund and Bystedt. It’s not about devils 17-18. They will have the core to build around. And they will most likely have more pieces in the near future. I can believe that they will not win a play off spot in the next five year, again they are having good prospects and Vlasic will not ruin them rebuild. It’s only two years. Three years of Subban didn’t ruined nothing for us. Only two picks we losted and Brink, Khusnutdinov were picked by our picks. They don’t need to lose their picks for Vlasic, his deal will not effect on a period where Smith, Celebrini/Lindstrom etc will play on the ELC deals. Couture - again, three years, good player to mentor young players who will play three years on ELC. And as Ducks they will have more good prospects.

I just hope we will not waste our pick for one year of future UFA goalie. We need more talent.it’s obvious even now. Right in the moment of the game. This team is playing with good goaltending. And they are losing their games not because of goaltending. If Fitz will make a panic move, we should worry. Some people may be will like it because they are just casual fans and they can be in panic, but it will make bad effect on the team.

 

[My3Sons]

They'll more than likely tell you to politely get lost and then add "Ben LoveJoy sucks and is as talented as MacDermid" for good measure.

I said I’d ask politely. I’d they resorted to insulting Lovejoy there woukd have to be adverse consequences for Ottawa. Maybe nothing maybe a nuclear option depending upon how pernicious the insulting was delivered.

 

[Nocashstyle]

That’s actually a very positive thing to hear

 

[tailfins]

He can call himself whatever he wants, the fact is that he was named interim head coach. He was hired as an assistant coach and that's his current position, he's just assuming the responsibilities of the head coach until the end of the season.

Totally disagree with your assessment here. Fitzgerald is not going to say anything about these guys publicly. He's still a hockey player at his core and still loyal, sometimes to a fault. But it's clear he's not an idiot and sees things the way that fans do, there's no way he's happy with the coaching performance.

He's been shuffling coaches around since he got here. Fitz cleaned house after Hynes left and there's been turnover behind the bench every season - Recchi, Kowalski, Brunette, Green. He was smart enough to move on from Nas and not continue on with the Hynes system. And we know Ruff was never meant to be a permanent answer, so why are we going to keep using guys and systems that have worn out their welcome? Green is only here because Brunette left and we needed a guy to fill that spot.

Fitzgerald IS the continuity - he's the long term GM, he's the one with a vision for this team, he's the one that chose the players, he's the one that got a vote of confidence from ownership this season. He has talked extensively about how young teams mature and evolve into contenders. Ruff and his system have served their purpose, it's time to play big boy hockey.

I agree with much of your comment.

But, I just don't think that there's any indication that Lindy "was never meant to be a permanent answer". Lindy was here nearly four years and clearly Fitz didn't want to fire him.

I do agree that Fitz is the continuity. But, from that perspective, I think this team is playing mostly how he wants them to play. He wants them to play smarter and harder -but I don't think that means change everything. And if Ruff wasn't pushing for smarter and harder, I think Fitz would have made a change earlier.

What Fitz is talking about is a bit mom and apple pie. I don't think any coach would come in and disagree with playing smarter with the puck or being harder on the puck. So, it's just a question of who can get that through to players. I don't think this is a systems thing.

If the players support Green after the season ends, I'm not sure Fitz looks elsewhere.

 

[Guttersniped]

The Ducks also got a bit of a head start on their blow up process though. I can’t remember what year they finally said enough is enough, but the Sharks didn’t do that until 2022-2023.

They missed the playoffs three years in a row, but they were still actively competing. They had just made the conference finals the year before that and tried to be good again the next year. DeBoer got fired in November. They were still trying to be good in 20-21, but were just failing masterfully at it.

By 2021-2022 you’d have to think some of the people in the organization, if not most of them knew the team was done and were going to be terrible, but they even started that year out 4-0-0 and I think they were also the first team that year to really have a covid outbreak that had a lot of guys missing at one point. And yes, like you said, they signed Hertl that year to an extension, further sandbagging themselves from the tank. I don’t get it at all, I never did. I never understood why he wanted to even sign there with what was on the horizon and what was already underway.

The Sharks before 2022-2023 were a bit like us in the final couple of years of Lou and the Red Wings in the final few years under Holland. They kept missing the playoffs, but it wasn’t really by design.

The Sharks immediately started missing the playoffs by a lot though.

They obviously wanted to compete after the Karlsson trade, but they had -38 drop in points and came in dead last in the Pacific. They were the 3rd seed in the draft lottery, that pick didn’t even move up when Ottawa won. That should have been a signal something was up.

In 2020-21, The Sharks were 2nd to last in the Honda NHL West Division and had 6th worst record in the league. They drafted 7th because Seattle was gifted the 3rd seed.

You miss the playoffs by a lot twice, something is up.

Not really arguing with you here. They were like us in the sense that their ownership was likely fighting a re-build and wanted to be “competitive” to keep some butts in the seats.

And they were like Detroit in the sense that they had a bunch of long term deals, some unmovable, which made a rebuild tougher. Not trading Hertl was a brutal, obvious error though.

The team was 26-25-8 when they signed him and then went 6-12-5 the rest of the year.

 

[Bleedred]

The Sharks immediately started missing the playoffs by a lot though.

They obviously wanted to compete after the Karlsson trade, but they had -38 drop in points and came in dead last in the Pacific. They were the 3rd seed in the draft lottery, that pick didn’t even move up when Ottawa won. That should have been a signal something was up.

In 2020-21, The Sharks were 2nd to last in the Honda NHL West Division and had 6th worst record in the league. They drafted 7th because Seattle was gifted the 3rd seed.

You miss the playoffs by a lot twice, something is up.

Not really arguing with you here. They were like us in the sense that their ownership was likely fighting a re-build and wanted to be “competitive” to keep some butts in the seats.

And they were like Detroit in the sense that they had a bunch of long term deals, some unmovable, which made a rebuild tougher. Not trading Hertl was a brutal, obvious error though.

The team was 26-25-8 when they signed him and then went 6-12-5 the rest of the year.

Honestly, in some ways I’m flabbergasted they were good enough to have a deep playoff run by 2019. Looking back on it, that team was already old and slow and it was the first bad year from Martin Jones, who was only in the first year of his deal.

In other ways, they did pretty well for a team with hideous goaltending.

That was also the last year of Pavelski and the only year they had both him and Karlsson.

 

[JrFischer54]

I get the nervousness about Green. I'm not advocating for him.

Just looking at the situation, I think Fitz will value continuity. IMO, that means Green has the inside track on the job unless / until there's a coach who's a clear upgrade (e.g., Sullvan).

But, if Sullivan isn't available, who would you pick? Peters? Babcock? Julien? Yeo? Berube? Boucher? Muller? Bylsma? None of those guys scream must hire.

And, if Fitz hires someone who has little / no NHL experience, isn't he in the same spot? If that inexperienced coach doesn't work out, I don't think that Fitz gets another shot at hiring in that case either.

green took over and you would think its normal the team should bounce back and play well even for a little bit. what happened was they actually looked less interested and didn't even want to play.

i dont know much about coaches but man if fitz brings him back? its basically his job noway he survives if the team tumbles again.

 

[Guttersniped]

I get the nervousness about Green. I'm not advocating for him.

Just looking at the situation, I think Fitz will value continuity. IMO, that means Green has the inside track on the job unless / until there's a coach who's a clear upgrade (e.g., Sullvan).

But, if Sullivan isn't available, who would you pick? Peters? Babcock? Julien? Yeo? Berube? Boucher? Muller? Bylsma? None of those guys scream must hire.

And, if Fitz hires someone who has little / no NHL experience, isn't he in the same spot? If that inexperienced coach doesn't work out, I don't think that Fitz gets another shot at hiring in that case either.

Other teams hire coaches that most fans never have heard of and they often work out so it isn’t really a question of who we would pick.

I don’t like how the team is playing right now, I genuinely don’t see what his system is even trying to do. It’s not entirely his fault, our defense is a mess with injuries and lack of centers, but Green is such an unappealing choice.

Side Note: Jack has been back from his injury for 24 games now and still hasn’t taken a single face-off. Holtz has taken 11.

 

[Goptor]

Hopefully Fitz recognizes Green needs to go.

Continuity is why his old boss got fired.

 

[bossram]

I get the nervousness about Green. I'm not advocating for him.

Just looking at the situation, I think Fitz will value continuity. IMO, that means Green has the inside track on the job unless / until there's a coach who's a clear upgrade (e.g., Sullvan).

But, if Sullivan isn't available, who would you pick? Peters? Babcock? Julien? Yeo? Berube? Boucher? Muller? Bylsma? None of those guys scream must hire.

And, if Fitz hires someone who has little / no NHL experience, isn't he in the same spot? If that inexperienced coach doesn't work out, I don't think that Fitz gets another shot at hiring in that case either.

Berube seems like a massive upgrade to me. He maximized the rosters he had in St. Louis, and showed he was adaptable to change their playing style with the players available to him.

People think of him as the hard-ass, defensive, physical style coach. And the Cup-winning Blues were. But as seasons passed he transitioned to a much more rush-oriented, East-West offense.

Woodcroft is also an option. As is Evason.