Devils discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part II

[Bcap88]

Shouldn’t have said this.

Don’t really see the need to trade Nemec because at the end of the day you can never have too many defensemen

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Do we think Nemec would have around the value necessary to bring back Musty and Bystedt as the main piece?

Would be a nice bump to the prospect pool up front and cover two positions.

Would also give us some nice ELC value pretty quickly and as both are on the fringe of being NHL ready IMO.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

This is high comedy....

Remember when no other under 20 year old had as many goals per game as Holtz....

Dominating the AHL for a high pick is baseline not an accomplishment. And this kid isn't even holding baseline this season

Points are not how you evaluate defensemen. I haven’t seen him play at all down there and wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t playing well given how awful he was in the NHL this year. The injury he had in that tournament may have wrecked his season.

We’ve already seen him play well in the NHL and put up points in the AHL, so no real reason to worry.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Don’t really see the need to trade Nemec because at the end of the day you can never have too many defensemen

I’m assuming this was a response to my second part that I took out and just moved to a second post.

I think you’re way oversimplifying here. You can never have too many defensmen. Unless you’re losing a ton of value in having a top young defensmen stuck in the AHL and hurting his development. If Kovacevic resigns and our D is set for the foreseeable future it may make a ton of sense to trade from a position of strength and fill in some areas of need

Points are not how you evaluate defensemen. I haven’t seen him play at all down there and wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t playing well given how awful he was in the NHL this year. The injury he had in that tournament may have wrecked his season.

We’ve already seen him play well in the NHL and put up points in the AHL, so no real reason to worry.

Ya his play at the AHL level is pretty irrelevant at this point. We know he can be good there and pretty good at the NHL level and his current situation is pretty demotivating for a player.

Want to see him in the NHL and see how he can push his game but that’s not easy to do right now.

 

[Andre Palot]

Regular reminder that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards. Someone like Luke Hughes is the exception to the rule. Someone like Nemec is not.

Giving up on Nemec now would be a catastrophic error barring some sort of over payment or for a superstar, impact, FRANCHISE player (which someone like Oliver Bjorkstrand is objectively not)

We also have leverage and time with Nemec and Silayev. Hamilton is most likely not gonna be on this team long term, neither is Dillion. We shouldn't be in a panic rush to trade either Nemec/Silayev. Especially for the likes of bottom six, albeit productive players like Yanni f***ing Gourde.

 

[britdevil]

Hopefully Nemec can take this xmas break to mentally reset.

Coming from Slovakia, always being the man in your country, to now riding the AHL bus after already showing promise in the NHL... It's a very specific amount of adversity to overcome.

Regular reminder that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards. Someone like Luke Hughes is the exception to the rule. Someone like Nemec is not.

Giving up on Nemec now would be a catastrophic error barring some sort of over payment or for a superstar, impact, FRANCHISE player (which someone like Oliver Bjorkstrand is objectively not)

We also have leverage and time with Nemec and Silayev. Hamilton is most likely not gonna be on this team long term, neither is Dillion. We shouldn't be in a panic rush to trade either Nemec/Silayev. Especially for the likes of bottom six, albeit productive players like Yanni f***ing Gourde.

You trade futures for these types of players. Not promising talents that already have contracts signed with the big club.

I only move him for someone who has proven they can tilt the ice. I'd have to think long and hard about if someone like Ryan O'Reily is dangled.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Regular reminder that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards. Someone like Luke Hughes is the exception to the rule. Someone like Nemec is not.

Giving up on Nemec now would be a catastrophic error barring some sort of over payment or for a superstar, impact, FRANCHISE player (which someone like Oliver Bjorkstrand is objectively not)

We also have leverage and time with Nemec and Silayev. Hamilton is most likely not gonna be on this team long term, neither is Dillion. We shouldn't be in a panic rush to trade these assets. Especially for the likes of bottom six, albeit productive players like Yanni f***ing Gourde.

What leverage do we possibly have with Nemec. He loses value everyday he spends in the AHL and his development is completely stalled.

Defensmen often do take longer to develop. But Nemec showed he is a capable NHL player and part of developing well is continuously being challenged and progressing. Not moving along progressing and then being shoved back to where you were 2 years ago.

It’s not about giving up on Nemec. It’s about realizing that he may end up blocked out of the lineup apart from injuries for the next 3-4 years.

Also not sure what would make you think Hamilton won’t be around here long term.

 

[Andre Palot]

What leverage do we possibly have with Nemec. He loses value everyday he spends in the AHL and his development is completely stalled.

Defensmen often do take longer to develop. But part of developing well is continuously being challenged and progressing.

It’s not about giving up on Nemec. It’s about realizing that he may end up blocked out of the lineup apart from injuries for the next 3-4 years.

Also not sure what would make you think Hamilton won’t be around here long term.

Hamilton has 9 million a year for four more years. Trade him at the deadline next year or the offseason and have Nemec play. You trade him to clear a log jam and to prevent the development stall you're talking about. If not for anything else for a package that would give us cap flexibility so we can improve in areas that we need.

Some players need more time in the minors though. Look at Larsson's first few years. He got better every year he was in the league. His development fizzled because PDB was benching him game after game for Peter Harrold.

Dillon is gonna be easier to move but if you truly believe these players should be in the NHL and are wasting away in the AHL you should move at least one of these veterans. Not do the opposite and trade away the cost controlled young guns for bottom six players. That should be off the table as an idea entirely.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Hamilton has 9 million a year for four more years. Trade him at the deadline next year or the offseason and have Nemec play. You trade him to clear a log jam and to prevent the development stall you're talking about. If not for anything else for a package that would give us cap flexibility so we can improve in areas that we need.

Some players need more time in the minors though. Look at Larsson's first few years. He got better every year he was in the league. His development fizzled because PDB was benching him game after game for Peter Harrold.

Dillon is gonna be easier to move but if you truly believe these players should be in the NHL and are wasting away in the AHL you should move at least one of these veterans. Not do the opposite and trade away the cost controlled young guns for bottom six players. That should be off the table as an idea entirely.

Hamilton has a no trade close and a 9M dollar contract. Trading him will be near impossible and if done expensive.

Some players need more time in the minors. Nemec did not at all in my opinion. All of his areas for improvement were much better worked on in the NHL. And in almost any other situation he would be in the NHL working through those issues and developing.

Dillon being traded would have very little effect on Nemec. Is Pesce, Hamilton, and Kovacevic that matter.

Also not sure what you’re talking about. Not a single person on this board has suggested trading him for a bottom 6 player or anyone close to it.

 

[Nubmer6]

Ya ya that’s easy to say but psychologically it still has an effect. Obviously some guys are much better than others at dealing with that stuff.

But there’s a lot of science behind what motivates people and from an outside perspective I don’t think his situation is very motivating.

Not saying he has control of it. There are different personalities, and I want the kind that digs in instead of sulking

 

[Cheddabombs]

Lu'cuuze

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I mean, I’ll be honest I haven’t really been impressed with Nemec’s tools at the NHL level either, but I’m not ready to jettison him. If there’s a good hockey deal out there I’d listen - I’d choose Casey between the two of them. At the same time, I don’t think anything about his career so far has me doubting he still has good potential.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Not saying he has control of it. There are different personalities, and I want the kind that digs in instead of sulking

It’s really not a sulking thing though. I’m talking about the external factors that affect his motivation to dig in and right now he couldn’t be in a more demotivating situation. While some people handle it better it’s gonna affect anyone.

 

[amikaro]

Hamilton has 9 million a year for four more years. Trade him at the deadline next year or the offseason and have Nemec play. You trade him to clear a log jam and to prevent the development stall you're talking about. If not for anything else for a package that would give us cap flexibility so we can improve in areas that we need.

Some players need more time in the minors though. Look at Larsson's first few years. He got better every year he was in the league. His development fizzled because PDB was benching him game after game for Peter Harrold.

Dillon is gonna be easier to move but if you truly believe these players should be in the NHL and are wasting away in the AHL you should move at least one of these veterans. Not do the opposite and trade away the cost controlled young guns for bottom six players. That should be off the table as an idea entirely.

It's crazy and awesome to be in a situation in which you could trade a guy like dougie hamilton because you have the prospect depth to do so.

to me it seems very reasonable on paper. he would score a decent return. but somehow i feel, he's an importabt part of that core and it might hurt team dynamics.

i m pretty happy about being in that dilema. devils D pool is a beauty.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

It's crazy and awesome to be in a situation in which you could trade a guy like dougie hamilton because you have the prospect depth to do so.

to me it seems very reasonable on paper. he would score a decent return. but somehow i feel, he's an importabt part of that core and it might hurt team dynamics.

i m pretty happy about being in that dilema. devils D pool is a beauty.

It would be if it was actually a plausible thing. He has a huge contract and a no trade clause. We would also not likely score a return. If anything we’re probably paying someone to take on his cap hit.

Even if he could I’m not sure fitz even would given his role on the team.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Hamilton's contract turns to a limited NTC on July 1st

I don't think it would be that hard to trade him. I know his points have cooled recently, but yeah.

 

[britdevil]

Surely it's more likely that they try to offload Palat, then run this same D corps again next year?

Sign Hughes to a max term deal and Kovacevic a nice raise?

 

[Dylan9z9]

Don’t really see the need to trade Nemec because at the end of the day you can never have too many defensemen

Probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard yet ... trading Nemec hilarious

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Hamilton's contract turns to a limited NTC on July 1st

I don't think it would be that hard to trade him. I know his points have cooled recently, but yeah.

Turns to a 10 team trade list I believe. As in there’s only 10 teams we could trade him to. And I’d imagine most of the teams on that list will be good teams that don’t have excess cap space to be trading for a 9M dman.

Probably one of the stupidest ideas I've heard yet ... trading Nemec hilarious

Sure man. At what point is it worth discussing to you?

A year and a half from now if he’s still stuck in the AHL and his trade value is in the gutter?

It’s one of those things from an asset management perspective that GM’s have to look at. Maybe it makes sense to trade from a position of strength while he still has value.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

I'm okay with trading Nemec as well at this point, and re-signing Kovacevic.

Just not for Oliver Bjorkstand or whoever was the flavor of the time that was discussed last night

 

[Incharge1976]

I mean, I’ll be honest I haven’t really been impressed with Nemec’s tools at the NHL level either, but I’m not ready to jettison him. If there’s a good hockey deal out there I’d listen - I’d choose Casey between the two of them. At the same time, I don’t think anything about his career so far has me doubting he still has good potential.

Not impressed with his tools? I think it's completely unfair to judge a D who was thrown into high leverage situations at 19 years old due to injuries with a coach who is quite frankly terrible when it comes to a structured system that helps young D grow. Ruff's system was overly complicated in their own zone and freewheeling in the offensive zone.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Not impressed with his tools? I think it's completely unfair to judge a D who was thrown into high leverage situations at 19 years old due to injuries with a coach who is quite frankly terrible when it comes to a structured system that helps young D grow. Ruff's system was overly complicated in their own zone and freewheeling in the offensive zone.

I disagree with him but he’s talking about his tools. Not his overall level of play. His skating, puck skills, shot, etc. I would imagine he’s mostly talking about.

You can still evaluate that stuff at 19 in a messy system.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

I mean, I’ll be honest I haven’t really been impressed with Nemec’s tools at the NHL level either, but I’m not ready to jettison him. If there’s a good hockey deal out there I’d listen - I’d choose Casey between the two of them. At the same time, I don’t think anything about his career so far has me doubting he still has good potential.

The right take, but also have to realize that dmen do take a while to develop for the most part. We've been spoiled with Luke, while also guys like Makar/McAvoy/Werenski are the outliers not the norm with highly drafted dmen. Nemec will be a NHL regular, it's just the question if it's here or somewhere else.

 

[JimEIV]

Points are not how you evaluate defensemen. I haven’t seen him play at all down there and wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t playing well given how awful he was in the NHL this year. The injury he had in that tournament may have wrecked his season.

We’ve already seen him play well in the NHL and put up points in the AHL, so no real reason to worry.

1. Points in the AHL are like give away Halloween candy for an elite player...a slug with no offensive instinct at all like Larsson puts up points in the AHL on a bad team.

2. Nemec never played "well" in the NHL. He wasn't bad for a 19/20 year old at certain points but it was never good...it was the classic good for a rookie good...he was there solely because of injury.

His reads and decisions were super slow..
Sometimes his reads were just plainly bad and his positioning was regularly way off...he wasn't strong enough but that's to be expected for a young player but it did significantly limit his effectiveness around the net and in the corners. That's what happened last year.

He should be eating up the AHL and that 100% absolutely should be reflected on the score sheet. 4 points in 14 AHL games for Dman like Kovacevic or Siegenthaler...ok, maybe...a former #2 overall? f***ing horrific.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Not impressed with his tools? I think it's completely unfair to judge a D who was thrown into high leverage situations at 19 years old due to injuries with a coach who is quite frankly terrible when it comes to a structured system that helps young D grow. Ruff's system was overly complicated in their own zone and freewheeling in the offensive zone.

I’m not sure he’s a good enough skater first and foremost. And if you’re going to be like that (a la Adam Fox), you’d better have an elite processor to make up for it and I haven’t seen that. That doesn’t mean he’ll never have it and it doesn’t mean Ruff’s system wasn’t primarily responsible for that (I don’t particularly think it was though), I just haven’t seen it at the NHL level.

I haven’t watched him in the AHL and I’m not going to live my life on his AHL points the way Jim is above, but I do think he should be one of Utica’s best players and I’d be a little disappointed if he wasn’t right now. That’s not a commentary on his future, player’s don’t always develop in a straight line, obviously.