Confirmed with Link: Devils Acquire D Ryan Graves from COL

[Lou is God]

doesn't translate on ice lol.
was the Avs worst defenseman.

New to hockey?

 

[Eggtimer]

It’s very weird how some Avs fans go out of their way to put down Graves yet all the stats and from what I have seen and other unbiased NHL analysts and insiders say about him are that he is a very decent PK D man that hits , blocks shots , has a decent stick , decent in board battles and take aways , decent in transition and gets shots through …. Yet “he sucks” ? I’m not saying he is a top 2 D man but I think he was unfairly criticized in Colorado and compared to Makar . If deployed correctly and use him to his strengths and toolset and I think he will be more than ok. He is still relatively young yet has experience . I am more than happy with this trade personally

 

[Jersey Fresh]

doesn't translate on ice lol.
was the Avs worst defenseman.

Hey everybody, get a load of this guy!

 

[MartyOwns]

man you guys are sensitive lol. let señor salty say what he wants, who cares. the more time has passed, i’m feeling better and better about the move and it sounds like there’s more to come. should be an exciting few weeks.

 

[NJDevs26]

 

[NJ Fan 12]

Risto sucks. No thanks.

Clearly you have never watched him play. Certainly not since his junior days.

Playing for a Lindy Ruff coached team is far different than the dumpster fire that has been the Sabres pretty much his entire career.

 

[NJ Fan 12]

Ok, but at what point are we supposed to see any sort of improvement with our team, knowing that we have the best analytic guys out there, cause we haven’t shown any type of progression in the standings for a while now.

Basically taking a page out of the Sixers (and Rangers) playbook of distracting and lowering expectations. Much like the "new economy" metrics in the 1990's; suggesting a new and better way somehow negates the poor results of the present.

Data analysis has always been a useful tool - whether parsed in a fancy name like "analytics" or not. However, when that becomes the focus to the exclusion of things like experience, knowledge, and human interaction and analysis, the results are fairly predictable.

For all the glorification of Moneyball and the Oakland A's, the bottom line remains that the team has yet to win a championship; while many of those players have reaped the benefits elsewhere.

However, like the Devils ownership, the A's owners have likely accumulated untold wealth.

 

[Ripshot 43]

Strange hate boner going on amongst some col fans.

Now I have to start a 90s grunge band so I can name it Hate Boner

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Clearly you have never watched him play. Certainly not since his junior days.

Playing for a Lindy Ruff coached team is far different than the dumpster fire that has been the Sabres pretty much his entire career.

Rasmus Ristolainen is one of the worst regular DMen in the NHL

He is terrible.

 

[Guttersniped]

Point being. I don't think trading the Isles 2nd in the 60s is bad value or the reason we are still bad. Trading 2nds that would be in the 30s or 40s for guys like Goose and Subban (when we aren't really ready to win now. Subban on a better team could have worked) was bad

I guess it’s good then that I wrote a long response when I agree with you then.

I don’t need to love every move a GM makes and Shero did good things but the team simply needed to draft more, with more picks at a higher position and addressing defense earlier then he did. The holes we have in arriving prospects reflect that.

We gave up the the #61 (60) and #75 (74) but that Isles pick is barely 2nd, we haven’t picked really made a pick in the 2nd round since 2017. (Again, the #61 in 2019 barely has value over mid round pick.) While we no longer have extra picks (we have seven 2021 picks now) but we do have two 1sts and the second 1st replaces our lost 2nd.

It’s easy to complain about the Siegenthaler trade (I mean, this board has proved that) there was know way for Fitz to know he would definitely get Graves. I don’t want Fitz to just ship assets out, we should in particular try to get 2022 picks if possible but I’m less upset about spending on defense and using later picks that aren’t are own.

 

[My3Sons]

I guess it’s good then that I wrote a long response when I agree with you then.

I don’t need to love every move a GM makes and Shero did good things but the team simply needed to draft more, with more picks at a higher position and addressing defense earlier then he did. The holes we have in arriving prospects reflect that.

We gave up the the #61 (60) and #75 (74) but that Isles pick is barely 2nd, we haven’t picked really made a pick in the 2nd round since 2017. (Again, the #61 in 2019 barely has value over mid round pick.) While we no longer have extra picks (we have seven 2021 picks now) but we do have two 1sts and the second 1st replaces our lost 2nd.

It’s easy to complain about the Siegenthaler trade (I mean, this board has proved that) there was know way for Fitz to know he would definitely get Graves. I don’t want Fitz to just ship assets out, we should in particular try to get 2022 picks if possible but I’m less upset about spending on defense and using later picks that aren’t are own.

If the team had a stack of right handed defenders at the AHL level comparable to the slew of lefties I’d be pretty happy with the prospect depth. In my view they are about four right hand defense picks short over the past three years.

 

[Guttersniped]

Basically taking a page out of the Sixers (and Rangers) playbook of distracting and lowering expectations. Much like the "new economy" metrics in the 1990's; suggesting a new and better way somehow negates the poor results of the present.

Data analysis has always been a useful tool - whether parsed in a fancy name like "analytics" or not. However, when that becomes the focus to the exclusion of things like experience, knowledge, and human interaction and analysis, the results are fairly predictable.

For all the glorification of Moneyball and the Oakland A's, the bottom line remains that the team has yet to win a championship; while many of those players have reaped the benefits elsewhere.

However, like the Devils ownership, the A's owners have likely accumulated untold wealth.

Do you think only the Oakland As are the only MLB team to use analytics and the reason they don’t win championships is analytics and not because there owners are notoriously cheap and the team always one of the lowest payrolls in the league? Also Moneyball isn’t the beginning and the end of analytics in baseball. I stopped watching MLB so I don’t really want to get into it but the A’s or Tampa Bay aren’t the “gotcha” against analytics some people think they are.

Also analytics are literally “analysis” and “knowledge”. I don’t know many teams that don’t use them at all, really every NHL team does at least to a certain extent now but some teams do a lot more (like Colorado, Carolina, Tampa, Florida (again post-Tallon), Toronto). You don’t have to be against “experience” or “human interaction” to use analytics. And analytic departments involve a lot video so it’s not just numbers. People keep making a straw man to attack when this is just a useful tool. It’s not like teams weren’t making dumb decisions before this so “analytics aren’t always right!” isn’t a fatal flaw, there are no magical fortune-telling techniques that are always right. People use analytics in part to find better statistical predictors than goals and assists (and they have).

 

[StevenToddIves]

This is kind of where you lose me because I think that the reality of what becomes of second round picks is being overstated. How often are you actually getting a player better than what Graves is right now? I'm talking consistent top 4 defender, top 6 forward for years? I think the reality of what you get from a second round pick is quite different than the expectations a lot of people have regarding them.

It's a little too early to evaluate some of the more recent drafts, but go back and look at the second round at a lot of those drafts. Not a lot of times when it happens to be honest. Using that 2011 draft with Kucherov as an example...it's basically him and Saad who have been the only consistent top 6 guys. Karlsson would make three, but lets be real...it took him 7 years, 3 teams and hitting age 25 to break out. Odds are you're not holding on to a guy that long (as seen by the fact that he was on his third team), so his inclusion in there is kind of hollow. Jenner is a solid middle six guy from jump, then you have Gibson in goal and Mayfield as a late bloomer on D. I'd consider a guy like Edmundson on par with a guy like Graves.

In 2012, the best player is probably Sevs without much else. 2010 was Faulk, Toffoli, Zucker. 2009 was solid; Tatar, ROR, Silvferberg up front with Dumoulin in the back and Lehner in goal (you can maybe include Orlov, I was kind of 50/50 on that). 2013? Bertuzzi could legitimately be the only guy that would I would throw into the conversation. 2014 had Demko & Dvorak.

2015 would be a big year for second round picks. Lots of really good players in that one but that was also an atypically strong draft from jump in most people's opinion. In 2016, right now we are a stage that is in line with 2010-2014, though I think that there is still quite a bit of time for some of these guys, so certainly not a finished situation yet. But Hart in goal, Hronek and Girard on D obviously are doing extremely well along with Debrincat, and I think Kyrou is on his way to being a consistent top 6 forward maybe. After that, unless I'm missing someone, I think the others are going to require a little bit of a jump (and yes, that includes Kuokkanen).

On the flip side, go back and look at how many of those picks just flat out didn't make it, or played some very nominal amount of games. In 2009, over half the round played less than 100 games. In 2010 it was just less than half. Etc etc.

You can find a lot of quality players in round 2, a lot of guys who are similar to graves who are solid NHL players, but you're not often breaking the bank. Acquiring Graves at that cost is basically just taking the (considerable) risk out of it in my opinion, while capping your ceiling as you know what you're getting. There's no variance (which isn't to say that you should be trading your second round pick every year but you also can't evaluate a single trade based on previous actions either).

Tl;dr

Second round picks don't hit big enough, often enough to be extremely valuable

Your argument here is compelling, but we need to keep in my mind that this was an excerpt taken out of a longer post, and I absolutely do not condemn this trade. My point was simply that the Devils in recent seasons have given up 2nd/3rd round picks like drunken sailors and some of these were for some pretty useless players like Mueller and Bennett. I'd just like to see a bit more caution here, but again I'm not opposed to the Graves deal.

 

[BurntToast]

With Multiple 1st’s, the past few seasons and the fact they loaded on prospects/picks through trades, makes the 2nd/3rd round picks less important.

2020; 8 picks (3 firsts)
2019; 11 picks (plus Nolan Foote via Trade)
2018; 6 picks (low, but Devs got Goalvich)
2017; 11 picks
2016; 9 picks

This doesn’t include other additions like Bahl..

 

[devilsblood]

Your argument here is compelling, but we need to keep in my mind that this was an excerpt taken out of a longer post, and I absolutely do not condemn this trade. My point was simply that the Devils in recent seasons have given up 2nd/3rd round picks like drunken sailors and some of these were for some pretty useless players like Meier and Bennett. I'd just like to see a bit more caution here, but again I'm not opposed to the Graves deal.

Should be noted though that in the last 2 years the Devils have drafted 4 times in the first round, once in the second, four times in the 3rd, and four more times in the 4th.

That's in addition to acquiring young players like Foote, Bahl, Kuok and Merkley who were recently drafted in the 1st and 2nd rounds.

Can't just look at the outflows.

 

[devilsblood]

With Multiple 1st’s, the past few seasons and the fact they loaded on prospects/picks through trades, makes the 2nd/3rd round picks less important.

2020; 8 picks (3 firsts)
2019; 11 picks (plus Nolan Foote via Trade)
2018; 6 picks (low, but Devs got Goalvich)
2017; 11 picks
2016; 9 picks

This doesn’t include other additions like Bahl..

Beat me to it.

 

[Capt Nico Poo]

Rasmus Ristolainen is one of the worst regular DMen in the NHL

He is terrible.

This is the kind of HFBoards comments that me and my friends often laugh about. X player that is a 1st line/1st pair/starting goalie in team Y is the WORST player in the league

Reuters of HFBoards have called, for example, in a similar manner goalies like Tuukka Rask and Carey Price at times to be the worst goalies in the league. Its so incredibly moronic that its actually... funny.

Edit. I think Risto would make a great devil. He's exactly what our blueline needs. And he even survived John Scott's stranglehold, so the kid's got something going.

 

[Unknown Caller]

It’s very weird how some Avs fans go out of their way to put down Graves yet all the stats and from what I have seen and other unbiased NHL analysts and insiders say about him are that he is a very decent PK D man that hits , blocks shots , has a decent stick , decent in board battles and take aways , decent in transition and gets shots through …. Yet “he sucks” ? I’m not saying he is a top 2 D man but I think he was unfairly criticized in Colorado and compared to Makar . If deployed correctly and use him to his strengths and toolset and I think he will be more than ok. He is still relatively young yet has experience . I am more than happy with this trade personally

The Avs were supposed to tear up the playoffs and coast to the Cup finals for two years now and they haven't even made it to a conference final. Graves did not have a particularly good playoff this year. They're going to be bitter and take it out on the guy, especially when it's a player that's leaving the team.

Even our fanbase can be unfair to guys who go through cold streaks while the team is struggling. We know what Graves is regardless of what Avs fans say. He's a legitimate #4 defenseman who brings most of his value to the table defensively and doesn't light the world on fire offensively. That's a piece that the Devils have been missing.

 

[Triumph]

This is the kind of HFBoards comments that me and my friends often laugh about. X player that is a 1st line/1st pair/starting goalie in team Y is the WORST player in the league

Reuters of HFBoards have called, for example, in a similar manner goalies like Tuukka Rask and Carey Price at times to be the worst goalies in the league. Its so incredibly moronic that its actually... funny.

Edit. I think Risto would make a great devil. He's exactly what our blueline needs. And he even survived John Scott's stranglehold, so the kid's got something going.

It's actually true about Risto, though, who is consistently worse than his teammates on a terrible team. He carries the puck well and scores points so he gets a ton of ice time but he's brutal defensively and they don't have anyone better.

 

[Oneiro]

While I would've liked a player with more years of team control, it's fine. More I think on it, the more it's nitpicking, especially since we have the Isles 1st. I'm glad we have Graves, especially if "we're not done."

 

[devilsblood]

It's actually true about Risto, though, who is consistently worse than his teammates on a terrible team. He carries the puck well and scores points so he gets a ton of ice time but he's brutal defensively and they don't have anyone better.

Can you be one of the worst players in the NHL but still the best guy on your team at the position?

I guess he could be the 3rd worst, but Risto is probably merely in the below average camp in terms of NHL defensemen. Put him in a 3rd pairing role and he's probably pretty good.

Maybe in terms of per dollar or something.

 

[AfroThunder396]

The Sabres don't have 6 NHL defenseman. They have Dahlin who is talented but very young and raw, Jokiharju who is also young and has shown some promise but regressed pretty heavily this season. Jake McCabe and Colin Miller are fringe bottom pairing guys. Bryson and Borgen are AHL prospects who were forced to play because of COVID/trades. Matt Irwin probably shouldn't be in the NHL.

Imagine if our defense core looked like:

Luke Hughes
Reilly Walsh
John Moore
Ben Lovejoy
David Schlemko
Matt Tennyson
Colton White

And then people started saying "wow look at all the ice time John Moore is getting, and he's on their 1st PP unit, he must be really good!"

 

[CKPLAYA]

Ok, but at what point are we supposed to see any sort of improvement with our team, knowing that we have the best analytic guys out there, cause we haven’t shown any type of progression in the standings for a while now.

Are you allowed to say that here? it's only been like 7 years since 2015 and they did win 1 playoff GAME.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Are you allowed to say that here? it's only been like 7 years since 2015 and they did win 1 playoff GAME.

First of all, it has not been 7 years.

Second of all, whats the point of your post, exactly?

 

[CKPLAYA]

First of all, it has not been 7 years.

Second of all, whats the point of your post, exactly?

i was taking your post offically declaring that THIS rebuild began in 2015. The point of my post was that if you post something factual about the rebuild and it doesn't meet with the approval of Yoda you will be cast to the dark side. lol.