Devils 2017-18 team discussion (player news and notes) - Offseason part IX

[Wingman77]

the drafting from 2005 to 2010 was horribad. That really cannot even be debated.

actually, the entire decade of the 2000s was mostly terrible. The only "good" players from 2001-2010 were Parise, Zajac, and Henrique.

Yeah, 3 notable players in an entire decade of drafting is atrocious. That's pretty inexcusable.

Not saying our drafting was good here, just pointing out some additional players. Martin, Rupp and to lesser extents, Bergfors and Fayne. Martin is self explanitory, Rupp was serviceable, and Bergfors and Fayne carved out little niches for themselves for a few years. We also had the additional benefit of picking up some solid undrafted free agents such as Oduya, Greene, and Clarkson that were able to provide some relief for those drafted that weren't ready and wound up not panning out.

We didn't have as many guys as we would have liked to step in over those years, but to say we had a completely wasted decade also isn't true.

Ya the narrative for awhiles was it didn't matter who the Devils plugged in, they just kept on winning. Of coarse this was more in regards to the fwd's, goal and defense was locked down.

So where did Lou go wrong? It was his inability to find 2 d-men the level of Stevens and Nied's.

Marty to Schneids? A bit of a step down. Marty's puck handling was a huge advantage that Schneids did not bring, but I say that drop off was not near the drop that we saw on defense.

Losing the production of 4 of your top 5 scorers in a year span will also deplete things pretty quickly as we did from the summer of 2012 to the summer of 2013. No team can rebound quickly if they lost that production in that little of time.

 

[Triumph]

I obviously didn't mean during our heyday years in 00-03, but from 2005 and 2014 there should've been a different approach.

Losing guys like Niedermayer, Rafalski, Gomez, Gionta, Parise, Clarkson, Martin, Fayne, Madden, etc etc for absolutely NOTHING in return will catch up to you eventually, and it did. There's no way anyone can survive that.

But don't you see how also having them will catch up to you eventually? That even if the Devils had kept all of these players for their entire careers (an impossibility, but let's just ignore that for now), they'd still also have nothing?

Niedermayer left in 05 after a year-long lockout. Was Lou supposed to trade him during his Norris Trophy winning season in 04 or after winning the Stanley Cup in 03?

Rafalski and Gomez's final years as Devils before leaving were on a 100+ point team - if the Devils had traded either guy, boards like this would've melted down. Imagine watching a whole season of a good team and then Lou tosses it away for futures. And that team had zero depth at all and nothing in the minors that could help.

Some of the others I won't take issue with, but trades like that can only do so much. To win consistently in this league you have to find elite players and the last time the Devils found one was 2003, and it's hard to find them when you are not drafting in the top 10.

And combine that with giving up draft picks in trades for guys like Martin Skoula, Niclas Hävelid, Ponikarovsky, Tuomo Ruutu etc etc. The future was not planned at all.

The Devils didn't give up a draft pick for Havelid. The first Ponikarovsky trade might be the best low-key deal Lou ever made. But yes, your general point is correct.

I know Lou had a different mind and he was always going for it, but he also could've taken care of the future while still being competitive.

You can see what for example Chicago has done over the past few years. They've traded away big pieces, but they've remained successful because they've acquired good young players to replace them. Same with Pittsburgh.

When did Pittsburgh do this? They took a shot on Justin Schultz and they've gotten some good young players out of their minor league system, but have they really made a major deal to get younger? I guess Perron for Hagelin got them a little younger, but other than that, I don't see it - the Kessel trade made them older for sure. Dealing Jordan Staal made them younger but Derrick Pouliot hasn't done anything in the NHL so far and he's 5 years out from being drafted, so I wouldn't really count that trade as a win - Sutter was flipped for Bonino and Dumolin has been good.

Chicago traded Saad for an older player and a younger player - they flipped the younger player elsewhere, and then they traded Panarin to Columbus to get Saad back. I like Chicago but I would not say that they have successfully traded older for younger - when they flipped Nick Leddy to the Islanders they lost that trade big-time. I don't think they cleaned up on dealing Byfuglien, Ladd, Versteeg, Hjalmarsson, Campbell - yeah, I don't see a lot to like here, in terms of getting younger.

Look at what St.Louis did this past season. They traded a star player like Kevin Shattenkirk while still staying competitive, because they knew they wouldn't be able to keep him. So they acquired future in exchange for him.

St. Louis has Vince Dunn coming through their system and their star players aren't super-old yet. I agree it was a fine trade for them, but it's not like they got a ton - Sanford seems like he'll be okay and a 1st round pick is nice, but the West was pretty weak last season and I'm not sure that was the year to say 'Eh, we can do it next year'. St. Louis is in an odd spot, they've committed a lot of money to some declining players, but they have had 3 1st round picks the last 2 years - I don't know. I don't fully understand what's going on over there.

 

[hutter]

Oh man, no. If you pay close attention to the league you'll see that this is not the case. GMs know a lot about their own team. They do not know the rest of the league. As an isolated example, Shero, who I like and think is okay, couldn't remember if the Devils, the team he now works for and a team who was in the same division as the team he GMed at the time, made the playoffs in 2012-13. Lots of people who play fantasy hockey would know the scorers in the league better than GMs, and I guarantee I know a lot of people online who watch more NHL hockey than GMs do, and I include myself in that group.

All this bashing might make you think that I think all NHL GMs are idiots, but I don't think that. They have different institutional knowledge. Anyone I've talked to who has worked in the NHL has a lot of respect for the front office people they've worked with, and I don't think they're just blowing smoke - there's some serious knowledge out there. It's just not the knowledge you might think it is. That's why the best approach, both in baseball and in hockey, combines this older, institutional knowledge with the newer statistical methods.

I don't think the state of analytics in Hockey and Baseball are particularly comparable. Unless the teams have more bits in their samples, so to speak (which you suggest they do not), hockey projection models are extremely poor compared to baseball ones. Hockey analytics are pretty much about where baseball was 20 years ago.

 

[Scorcho]

Meh

Physicality is overrated. I think our fanbase seems to be into it even more than many others, due to the HOF defenseman that was the captain of the team for 3 Stanley Cups.

One of the very few guys in the history of the game that was a game changer because of his physicality.

as other people said, he wasn't JUST physical though.

People forget that Stevens had multiple 70+ pt seasons.

 

[The Wumpus]

as other people said, he wasn't JUST physical though.

People forget that Stevens had multiple 70+ pt seasons.

I think Youtube highlight videos have led people to view Stevens as a Gudas-like player. He was an elite shutdown D as well as a very good two way player. Even in his latter years he put up decent offensive numbers. I hate how all people mention when his name comes up is the hitting, ignoring his stellar all-around game.

 

[Scorcho]

I think Youtube highlight videos have led people to view Stevens as a Gudas-like player. He was an elite shutdown D as well as a very good two way player. Even in his latter years he put up decent offensive numbers. I hate how all people mention when his name comes up is the hitting, ignoring his stellar all-around game.

908 pts in 1635 games. that's ridiculous for a dman in that/those era(s).

 

[Nocashstyle]

Not saying our drafting was good here, just pointing out some additional players. Martin, Rupp and to lesser extents, Bergfors and Fayne. Martin is self explanitory, Rupp was serviceable, and Bergfors and Fayne carved out little niches for themselves for a few years. We also had the additional benefit of picking up some solid undrafted free agents such as Oduya, Greene, and Clarkson that were able to provide some relief for those drafted that weren't ready and wound up not panning out.

We didn't have as many guys as we would have liked to step in over those years, but to say we had a completely wasted decade also isn't true.



Losing the production of 4 of your top 5 scorers in a year span will also deplete things pretty quickly as we did from the summer of 2012 to the summer of 2013. No team can rebound quickly if they lost that production in that little of time.

Martin was 2000. The original quote was 2001 - 2010. But yeah, he certainly is a notable one.

Going back and looking at Bergfors, I'm absolutely shocked he racked up 173 NHL games, although most were not with the Devils.

 

[devilsblood]

I think Youtube highlight videos have led people to view Stevens as a Gudas-like player. He was an elite shutdown D as well as a very good two way player. Even in his latter years he put up decent offensive numbers. I hate how all people mention when his name comes up is the hitting, ignoring his stellar all-around game.

It's his own fault for being the best open ice hitter in the history of the game.

 

[Bleedred]

Not saying our drafting was good here, just pointing out some additional players. Martin, Rupp and to lesser extents, Bergfors and Fayne. Martin is self explanitory, Rupp was serviceable, and Bergfors and Fayne carved out little niches for themselves for a few years. We also had the additional benefit of picking up some solid undrafted free agents such as Oduya, Greene, and Clarkson that were able to provide some relief for those drafted that weren't ready and wound up not panning out.

We didn't have as many guys as we would have liked to step in over those years, but to say we had a completely wasted decade also isn't true.



Losing the production of 4 of your top 5 scorers in a year span will also deplete things pretty quickly as we did from the summer of 2012 to the summer of 2013. No team can rebound quickly if they lost that production in that little of time.

To be fair, it was Lou's fault for not bringing back Sykora for one more year, then trading for Steve Sullivan at the deadline. Not that I blame him for the Sullivan trade, just that it pretty much was replacing Sykora. So not replacing Sykora falls on Lou completely, even though he was perhaps the most expendable of the bunch. He had a chance to sign him and didn't.

I don't blame him so much on losing the others. Not bringing back Clarkson was a smart move, as Clarkson wasn't really as good as he was in the 11-12 season.

 

[Bleedred]

as other people said, he wasn't JUST physical though.

People forget that Stevens had multiple 70+ pt seasons.

Absolutely

Hitting wasn't nearly all he was good for, though I think he was one of the few people in the sport who could change a game with his physicality.

 

[Bleedred]

I think some take the advanced stats a little too far....just my humble opinion

''Hahahahahaha. I feel the same way man! Most of it's ********! HAHAHAHAHAHA''

 

[captainscott]

''Hahahahahaha. I feel the same way man! Most of it's ********! HAHAHAHAHAHA''

for scouting i would think some advanced stats can suppliment what you see live from a player... if you can't make a determination on a player by watching him than you are not in a position to judge anyone in any case

 

[JimEIV]

To be fair, it was Lou's fault for not bringing back Sykora for one more year

Sykora was done before the 2012 season was over. He could barely skate at the end of year.

 

[Triumph]

Sykora was done before the 2012 season was over. He could barely skate at the end of year.

Here we agree. I suspect Vanderbeek's money troubles are the reason Sykora never came back - Walsh, his agent, tweeted that Sykora 'was going to play in the NHL this season' in January 2013 but then that didn't happen for whatever reason - but I don't think he would've been very good.

 

[Hockey Sports Fan]

It's his own fault for being the best open ice hitter in the history of the game.

Yeah, it's ultimately going to define his career waaaaaay more than the fact that he's 12th OVERALL in scoring by a defenseman. Ahead of Niedermayer, ahead of Pronger, and obviously ahead of a lot incredible offensive defensemen. Obviously the fact he played 1600 games (behind #1 Chelios by only 16 games) has something to do with it, but damn.

 

[SKNJD9]

 

[Billdo]

Absolutely

Hitting wasn't nearly all he was good for, though I think he was one of the few people in the sport who could change a game with his physicality.

Iirc he was actually asked to tone down the offense and focus more on D when he came here. He was an elite scorer from the D position back in the day.

 

[Davegarri]

What a freaking cancer. He's not even smiling!!!

 

[Bleedred]

Sykora was done before the 2012 season was over. He could barely skate at the end of year.

I suspect he may have very well been one of those players like Ponikarovsky that was good the first year and then makes us regret giving him a second year. I'm just saying that if we're gonna cut Lou a break for losing 4 of the top 5 scorers from 11-12, that was one guy he could have kept and decided to cut bait. We could argue he probably wouldn't have been top 5 on the team in scoring if we brought him back for another go around, which he probably wouldn't have been.

Here we agree. I suspect Vanderbeek's money troubles are the reason Sykora never came back - Walsh, his agent, tweeted that Sykora 'was going to play in the NHL this season' in January 2013 but then that didn't happen for whatever reason - but I don't think he would've been very good.

Would we have really had to pay Sykora anything more than $1 million for one year if we had brought him back? And that would have been prorated for the lockout shortened season. I always had the belief that Sykora waited around for us to offer him a deal in that offseason, before the lockout happened and may have turned down other offers. Then after the lockout ended, those offers were no longer available and we weren't giving him one either, then he decided to go play in Europe instead.

Iirc he was actually asked to tone down the offense and focus more on D when he came here. He was an elite scorer from the D position back in the day.

That's true. And he did score 78 points in 93-94, before the offense went down by quite a bit. He still produced at a decent clip for a defenseman for the remainder of his career though. He was usually a 25-ish point guy from then up until the early 00's.

 

[njdevils1982]

i would school him….won 2nd place in 1989 tottenham ontario ping pong tournament

since then ive developed 2 additional serves to my arsenal

you also need way more ****ing room around you to play a match……

velvet rope …..

 

[The 29th Pick]

2 minute mark, one of my favorite Scott Stevens goals, and it was big

 

[njdevils1982]

2 minute mark, one of my favorite Scott Stevens goals, and it was big

 

[JimEIV]

Iirc he was actually asked to tone down the offense and focus more on D when he came here. He was an elite scorer from the D position back in the day.

It didn't happen immediately. Lemaire arrived in 1994 and convinced Stevens that in order for the team to win he needed to buy in and play more structured.

He also did a lot of baby sitting. Almost every young defender that came up played with Stevens during those years.

But those offensive numbers slowing down were 100% a choice... I've heard it argued that it was "decline".

I've never seen a player the caliber of Scott Stevens decline at 30 years old and definitely not to the point where their offensive production would fall to half.... anyone that watched him skate, shoot and play from 1995 until 2000 would be insane to think there was any sort of decline at play there...in his last few years there was some definite slow down but Ironically he was still putting up similar number of points at 38 and 39 as he was at 31.

 

[The 29th Pick]

**** that whole video is amazing

and check out 4:20

"broten. its over"

ha ha, I remember that goal too, but back then I don't remember Doc calling that !
and those Claude Lemieux goals were incredible ...those angles !

 

[Bleedred]

My favorite Stevens goal might have been that hilarious goal that he scored on Khabibulin in game 4 of the 03 Tampa series.

Torts started John Grahame in game 5 and wouldn't say why he did it. Out of all the goals we scored on Khabibulin, that Stevens goal was an absolute stinker. Definitely got him yanked. Looked like he was wearing a cinder block for a glove on that one.