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Detroit Redwings Downfall

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Voight said:
The issue with Detroit is unlike most rebuilds they have no game breaking talent (Matthews, McDavid, Makar etc). Raymond might get there and has shown major strides but other than him, there aint much. Seider has the potential to be one but that remains to be seen.

& while I'm sure they have a good prospect pool there aren't any names except Kasper that really stand out and look like future top line players.
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It definitely helps to have that game breaking talent obviously, but its not some prerequisite to building a good team, it just helps a lot. McDavid and Makar are going to go down as some of the top players at their position all time. They have 17 playoff runs between the 2 of them, only one cup and only 3/4 deep runs. Matthews has made it out of the first round once. This website sometimes acts like all rebuilds have a game breaking talent like these 3, but they're extremely rare and not actually crazy successful.

I don't see any reason why the wings cant be a Dallas/Winnipeg/St Louis/Carolina/Vegas/LA while looking at the playoff teams from this year. I know those teams have some studs on them, but its not like Raymond, Seider, and Edvinsson at the very least aren't already/trending to be studs as well.

I'll also say that while Kasper might be trending now to be a legit top 6 center, just last season people on here weren't saying that. If some of these late round picks start panning out and the ones that have already arrived keep their trajectories, they should be able to compete and be a hard outc for anyone come playoff time
 
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newfy said:
It definitely helps to have that game breaking talent obviously, but its not some prerequisite to building a good team, it just helps a lot. McDavid and Makar are going to go down as some of the top players at their position all time. They have 17 playoff runs between the 2 of them, only one cup and only 3/4 deep runs. Matthews has made it out of the first round once. This website sometimes acts like all rebuilds have a game breaking talent like these 3, but they're extremely rare and not actually crazy successful.

I don't see any reason why the wings cant be a Dallas/Winnipeg/St Louis/Carolina/Vegas/LA while looking at the playoff teams from this year. I know those teams have some studs on them, but its not like Raymond, Seider, and Edvinsson at the very least aren't already/trending to be studs as well.

I'll also say that while Kasper might be trending now to be a legit top 6 center, just last season people on here weren't saying that. If some of these late round picks start panning out and the ones that have already arrived keep their trajectories, they should be able to compete and be a hard outc for anyone come playoff time
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Don't cherry pick your examples though. Go back through the past decade of cup winners, who are you going to accuse of not having elite to legendary talent at multiple positions? Crosby/Malkin with two in that time, Makar/MacKinnon with one, Hedman/Kucherov with two, Ovie/Backstrom with one.

The only exceptions that won are arguably Vegas and St Louis, and they both had depth to pair with top end talent at most positions.
 
Trading Larkin could be a great move for the Wings, and he probably won't be in his prime when they're ready to seriously compete.

They could get a better return than the Habs got for Pacioretty and with a bit of luck another core piece to keep going.
 
SlickHands said:
Don't cherry pick your examples though. Go back through the past decade of cup winners, who are you going to accuse of not having elite to legendary talent at multiple positions? Crosby/Malkin with two in that time, Makar/MacKinnon with one, Hedman/Kucherov with two, Ovie/Backstrom with one.

The only exceptions that won are arguably Vegas and St Louis, and they both had depth to pair with top end talent at most positions.
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Vegas had a strong #1C, strong #1W, an elite #1 D and another D that could reasonably be considered a second Number 1, plus really strong depth. Hard team to replicate and I think their elite-ness of their top players is a bit underrated.

If you generously give Detroit a Stone, Marchessault, Pietrangelo, Theodore, depth equivalent longterm, they still really need an Eichel to match, as Larkin is not as good and older (in a real way, not relative to a specific year) than Eichel (whose Cup win was two years ago).
 
MoneyManny said:
Trading Larkin could be a great move for the Wings, and he probably won't be in his prime when they're ready to seriously compete.

They could get a better return than the Habs got for Pacioretty and with a bit of luck another core piece to keep going.
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Who plays those key minutes at centre that Larkin eats though? That’s a big hole in the lineup.
 
MoneyManny said:
Trading Larkin could be a great move for the Wings, and he probably won't be in his prime when they're ready to seriously compete.

They could get a better return than the Habs got for Pacioretty and with a bit of luck another core piece to keep going.
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Yeah trade him to MTL, at least he's going to taste what playoff look like.

Dach + 1st 2025 + 1st 2025+ a prospect.
 
SlickHands said:
Don't cherry pick your examples though. Go back through the past decade of cup winners, who are you going to accuse of not having elite to legendary talent at multiple positions? Crosby/Malkin with two in that time, Makar/MacKinnon with one, Hedman/Kucherov with two, Ovie/Backstrom with one.

The only exceptions that won are arguably Vegas and St Louis, and they both had depth to pair with top end talent at most positions.
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I don't disagree with you, obviously elite talent helps a lot. But even with cup winners like you just said, that's 2 of the last 6 that Detroit has an extremely reasonable chance to build. Ovechkin only having one and taking until year 13, McDavid having none, Matthews getting out of the first round only once shows there's a lot more than just elite talent in the equation.

And even a team like Florida last year shows you you don't need to draft elite talent to build a winner either
 
newfy said:
I don't disagree with you, obviously elite talent helps a lot. But even with cup winners like you just said, that's 2 of the last 6 that Detroit has an extremely reasonable chance to build. Ovechkin only having one and taking until year 13, McDavid having none, Matthews getting out of the first round only once shows there's a lot more than just elite talent in the equation.

And even a team like Florida last year shows you you don't need to draft elite talent to build a winner either
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Vegas absolutely had elite talent when they won the cup, Eichel/Stone are better than anyone Detroit has. And half the league has a reasonable chance to become like St. Louis, which was a major Cinderella team.

The whole point of rebuilding is to become a consistent contender. Spending the last 7 years rebuilding, not getting elite talent, and hoping to be the long shot team like St. Louis is a failure of a rebuild.
 
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SlickHands said:
Don't cherry pick your examples though. Go back through the past decade of cup winners, who are you going to accuse of not having elite to legendary talent at multiple positions? Crosby/Malkin with two in that time, Makar/MacKinnon with one, Hedman/Kucherov with two, Ovie/Backstrom with one.

The only exceptions that won are arguably Vegas and St Louis, and they both had depth to pair with top end talent at most positions.
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Probably the most realistic build, that doesn't include any crazy trades or huge UFA gets, is a St.Louis type team.

I wouldn't even call that roster, on paper, a best case scenario.

WarriorofTime said:
If you generously give Detroit a Stone, Marchessault, Pietrangelo, Theodore
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Exactly which of Kasper, Raymond, Seider and Edvinsson is trending behind those guys at the same age?

lidstromiscool said:
The whole point of rebuilding is to become a consistent contender. Spending the last 7 years rebuilding, not getting elite talent, and hoping to be the long shot team like St. Louis is a failure of a rebuild.
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Tarasenko was the best offensive weapon on that Blues team. He hit 80+ points for the first time as a 30 year old. When he was 22 he was 126th in league scoring.
Raymond hit 80 points and was 28th in league scoring this season.
 
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Pavels Dog said:
Tarasenko was the best offensive weapon on that Blues team. He hit 80+ points for the first time as a 30 year old. When he was 22 he was 126th in league scoring.
Raymond hit 80 points and was 28th in league scoring this season.
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Tarasenko was 10th in league in points twice and had seasons of 4th, 5th, 5th in goals. League scoring has gone up.
 
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lidstromiscool said:
Vegas absolutely had elite talent when they won the cup, Eichel/Stone are better than anyone Detroit has. And half the league has a reasonable chance to become like St. Louis, which was a major Cinderella team.

The whole point of rebuilding is to become a consistent contender. Spending the last 7 years rebuilding, not getting elite talent, and hoping to be the long shot team like St. Louis is a failure of a rebuild.
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Vegas got Pietrangelo as a free agent signing too. Eichel elite 1C (Trade) Stone elite Power Forward (Trade) Pietrangelo Elite 1D (UFA). All three better than what Detroit has. Yzerman needs to use his collected assets (young roster players, prospects, picks) to pry loose elite players.
 
MoneyManny said:
Trading Larkin could be a great move for the Wings, and he probably won't be in his prime when they're ready to seriously compete.

They could get a better return than the Habs got for Pacioretty and with a bit of luck another core piece to keep going.
Click to expand...
Highly unlikely...Possible, but.....
 
newfy said:
I don't disagree with you, obviously elite talent helps a lot. But even with cup winners like you just said, that's 2 of the last 6 that Detroit has an extremely reasonable chance to build. Ovechkin only having one and taking until year 13, McDavid having none, Matthews getting out of the first round only once shows there's a lot more than just elite talent in the equation.

And even a team like Florida last year shows you you don't need to draft elite talent to build a winner either
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To be fair, Florida has Barkov, a former #2 pick who is arguably the best two way player in the game not named Pastrnak, to go with a two time Vezina winner and a host of other guys who would come here and automatically be one of our top 3 players.
 
Pavels Dog said:
Probably the most realistic build, that doesn't include any crazy trades or huge UFA gets, is a St.Louis type team.

I wouldn't even call that roster, on paper, a best case scenario.
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I don't know that St. Louis is a result that one can replicate with any success. Maybe if Tarasenko didn't have shoulder injuries and they didn't lose certain key pieces (like Pietrangelo), they might have had a longer more serious window. But they went in as a lower seed with a rookie goalie, and things clicked for them at the right time. They weren't a playoff team the previous year and after a few early playoff bounces the susequent seasons, they went right back to not being a playoff team.
 
Fatass said:
Vegas got Pietrangelo as a free agent signing too. Eichel elite 1C (Trade) Stone elite Power Forward (Trade) Pietrangelo Elite 1D (UFA). All three better than what Detroit has. Yzerman needs to use his collected assets (young roster players, prospects, picks) to pry loose elite players.
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And I think Seider could match Pietrangelo in impact, and Raymond can have a Stone level impact. But we still don't have a franchise Center (Eichel) or elite depth/goaltending. Tough to believe this roster/prospect pool is in year 6 of a rebuild.

Meanwhile, Montreal made the playoffs, have drafted 3 of their 4 leading scorers since Yzerman took over, got their starting goaltender on waivers.

The honeymoon phase with Yzerman is over for me
 
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