Detroit Redwings Downfall

[GunnarStahl]

Carlsson vs. Raymond
McTavish vs. Kasper
Gauthier vs. Danielson
Sennecke vs. MBN
Mintyukov vs. Seider
LaCombe vs. Edvinsson
Zellweger vs. ASP
Luneau vs. Johansson
Dostal vs. Cossa/Augustine

Is there really such a major difference?


That kind of improvement is the easiest to make though. Detroit did it too. Building from there is more challenging.

Carlsson > Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Gauthier > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Mintyukov << Seider
LaCombe = Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Luneau > Johansson
Dostal > Cossa/Augustine

Ducks fan, so bias and viewing discrepancies may be present. Feel free to provide counter argument if you so desire. Also I have limited viewing of ASP so I don't really know who to value over one another. Lacombe and Ed is a tough comparison. I really like Edvinsson, he was my favorite prospect in the 2021 class for the Ducks. I put them equal because Lacombe was a legit top pair guy for much of this year and I think Edvinsson should become that, but also want to acknowledge that Lacombe needs to maintain that play as well. Also I really like MBN, it's just the other guy is a 3rd overall pick, controversial or not it's an disjointed pedigree between the two.
It should also be noted that most of those comparisons the Ducks get the privilege of the higher pedigree guy.

2nd vs 4th
3rd vs 8th
5th vs 9th
3rd vs 15th
10th vs 6th
39th vs 4th
34th vs 17th
53rd vs 60th
85th vs 15th

I don't think taking issue with the drafting is what the discussion should focus on, every notable Detroit draft pick is a guy that has succeeded or I found to be a strong pick, the only exception is maybe Danielson, but even then none of the guys taken shortly after him are absolute game changers imo. If you go pre Yzerman Rasmussen and Zadina obviously haven't been the greatest picks, but that feels a bit beside the point.

The strongest drafting criticism I can muster is perhaps they should have had a couple more notable steals outside of the 1st round by now. That does seem to be a bit lacking. For example the Ducks have sourced their blue line future from the 2nd round sans Minty and Solberg now as well.(Also should be noted ANA should not be looked at as a model rebuild as they have yet to take that step into the playoffs)

To me it seems evident that this rebuild is struggling more from FA acquisitions and coaching not delivering results. Hopefully the coaching change solves one of those problems.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Carlsson > Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Gauthier > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Mintyukov << Seider
LaCombe = Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Luneau > Johansson
Dostal > Cossa/Augustine

Ducks fan, so bias and viewing discrepancies may be present. Feel free to provide counter argument if you so desire. Also I have limited viewing of ASP so I don't really know who to value over one another. Lacombe and Ed is a tough comparison. I really like Edvinsson, he was my favorite prospect in the 2021 class for the Ducks. I put them equal because Lacombe was a legit top pair guy for much of this year and I think Edvinsson should become that, but also want to acknowledge that Lacombe needs to maintain that play as well. Also I really like MBN, it's just the other guy is a 3rd overall pick, controversial or not it's an disjointed pedigree between the two.
It should also be noted that most of those comparisons the Ducks get the privilege of the higher pedigree guy.

2nd vs 4th
3rd vs 8th
5th vs 9th
3rd vs 15th
10th vs 6th
39th vs 4th
34th vs 17th
53rd vs 60th
85th vs 15th

I don't think taking issue with the drafting is what the discussion should focus on, every notable Detroit draft pick is a guy that has succeeded or I found to be a strong pick, the only exception is maybe Danielson, but even then none of the guys taken shortly after him are absolute game changers imo. If you go pre Yzerman Rasmussen and Zadina obviously haven't been the greatest picks, but that feels a bit beside the point.

The strongest drafting criticism I can muster is perhaps they should have had a couple more notable steals outside of the 1st round by now. That does seem to be a bit lacking. For example the Ducks have sourced their blue line future from the 2nd round sans Minty and Solberg now as well.(Also should be noted ANA should not be looked at as a model rebuild as they have yet to take that step into the playoffs)

To me it seems evident that this rebuild is struggling more from FA acquisitions and coaching not delivering results. Hopefully the coaching change solves one of those problems.

Some pretty insane takes in this comment my guy

 

[GunnarStahl]

Some pretty insane takes in this comment my guy

I'm chill with you elaborating on that, I'd actually like to hear what you think I may not be understanding or what I'm missing.

Also after I posted it I realized it doesn't illustrate my point very well. The comps I think could favor DET better if you swap the match ups for example. My main point is I really like the talent DET has drafted. Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson are all great picks. Kasper I think is a great pick up too and not many players taken shortly after him are as or more valuable. MBN is awesome too

Gauthier < Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Carlsson > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Lacombe < Seider
Mintyukov < Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Dostal > Cossa

This comparison also fails to acknowledge the talents the DET has like Debrincat Kane and Larkin. The only other older noteworthy player on ANA is Terry. That's why DET is the superior team.

So my takes were
-ANA may have a bit more recently drafted talent, but they also have had more recent prime draft picks. DET has drafted pretty well.
-All of Detroit's Yzerman era top 20 picks have been pretty good.
- The only critique I can really find for DET drafting is perhaps more talent could have been pulled from outside of the 1st round.
-ANA isn't a good comp for measuring rebuild success
-from my perspective DETs rebuild is failing to gain ground from FA and coaching (and coaching issue may be resolved)

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I'm chill with you elaborating on that, I'd actually like to hear what you think I may not be understanding or what I'm missing.

Also after I posted it I realized it doesn't illustrate my point very well. The comps I think could favor DET better if you swap the match ups for example. My main point is I really like the talent DET has drafted. Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson are all great picks. Kasper I think is a great pick up too and not many players taken shortly after him are as or more valuable. MBN is awesome too

Gauthier < Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Carlsson > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Lacombe < Seider
Mintyukov < Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Dostal > Cossa

This comparison also fails to acknowledge the talents the DET has like Debrincat Kane and Larkin. The only other older noteworthy player on ANA is Terry. That's why DET is the superior team.

So my takes were
-ANA may have a bit more recently drafted talent, but they also have had more recent prime draft picks. DET has drafted pretty well.
-All of Detroit's Yzerman era top 20 picks have been pretty good.
- The only critique I can really find for DET drafting is perhaps more talent could have been pulled from outside of the 1st round.
-ANA isn't a good comp for measuring rebuild success
-from my perspective DETs rebuild is failing to gain ground from FA and coaching (and coaching issue may be resolved)

Now that you rearranged the comparison of players it isn’t so bad. I didn’t like how you said Carlson> Raymond when Raymond just scored 80 points this year. To me that doesn’t make much sense. Also dostal over cossa is kind of unfair at this point as cossa is still developing and had a good season in the AHL. Personally considering Detroit has only had 1 top 5 pick I think they’ve drafted incredibly well. I think Anaheim and Detroit are pretty neck and neck in their rebuild, but Detroits been rebuilding longer, but doesn’t have nearly the same amount of high picks. I do agree with you that coaching and FA is what’s been holding them back. I also don’t get why ASP isn’t as lauded around here the way guys like lane Hutson was last year. He’s a guy who could similarly come into the NHL and score 50 points next year.

As for our drafting outside of the 2nd round, I think buchelnikov is going to really surprise some people in a few years with how good he is.

 

[EpochLink]

Hold the f*** up, last time I was here it was on page 73 or something like that.
How the hell did it reach page 173!??!?!

 

[Go Wings]

Hold the f*** up, last time I was here it was on page 73 or something like that.
How the hell did it reach page 173!??!?!

Some fools insist on commenting after every Detroit game.

 

[EpochLink]

Some fools insist on commenting after every Detroit game.

Detroit had a good run after replacing the coach, I get it.
But holy crap, I thought this thread would simmer off after that.

 

[GunnarStahl]

Now that you rearranged the comparison of players it isn’t so bad. Personally considering Detroit has only had 1 top 5 pick I think they’ve drafted incredibly well. I think Anaheim and Detroit are pretty neck and neck in their rebuild, but Detroits been rebuilding longer, but doesn’t have nearly the same amount of high picks. I do agree with you that coaching and FA is what’s been holding them back. I also don’t get why ASP isn’t as lauded around here the way guys like lane Hutson was last year. He’s a guy who could similarly come into the NHL and score 50 points next year.

Lol yeah I thought about rearranging the match ups the first time because they felt a bit incongruent.

 

[GunnarStahl]

Now that you rearranged the comparison of players it isn’t so bad. I didn’t like how you said Carlson> Raymond when Raymond just scored 80 points this year. To me that doesn’t make much sense. Also dostal over cossa is kind of unfair at this point as cossa is still developing and had a good season in the AHL. Personally considering Detroit has only had 1 top 5 pick I think they’ve drafted incredibly well. I think Anaheim and Detroit are pretty neck and neck in their rebuild, but Detroits been rebuilding longer, but doesn’t have nearly the same amount of high picks. I do agree with you that coaching and FA is what’s been holding them back. I also don’t get why ASP isn’t as lauded around here the way guys like lane Hutson was last year. He’s a guy who could similarly come into the NHL and score 50 points next year.

As for our drafting outside of the 2nd round, I think buchelnikov is going to really surprise some people in a few years with how good he is.

Carlsson Raymond and Dostal Cossa are awkward comps.
Potential franchise 1C that is 6'4 but not fully developed or proven vs established ppg winger
Developed proven starter vs high ceiling prospect.

Leaves a fair bit open to discussion.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I'm chill with you elaborating on that, I'd actually like to hear what you think I may not be understanding or what I'm missing.

Also after I posted it I realized it doesn't illustrate my point very well. The comps I think could favor DET better if you swap the match ups for example. My main point is I really like the talent DET has drafted. Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson are all great picks. Kasper I think is a great pick up too and not many players taken shortly after him are as or more valuable. MBN is awesome too

Gauthier < Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Carlsson > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Lacombe < Seider
Mintyukov < Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Dostal > Cossa

This comparison also fails to acknowledge the talents the DET has like Debrincat Kane and Larkin. The only other older noteworthy player on ANA is Terry. That's why DET is the superior team.

So my takes were
-ANA may have a bit more recently drafted talent, but they also have had more recent prime draft picks. DET has drafted pretty well.
-All of Detroit's Yzerman era top 20 picks have been pretty good.
- The only critique I can really find for DET drafting is perhaps more talent could have been pulled from outside of the 1st round.
-ANA isn't a good comp for measuring rebuild success
-from my perspective DETs rebuild is failing to gain ground from FA and coaching (and coaching issue may be resolved)

Good post and I agree with everything you said. ASP will show us what he can do in North America soon enough.

 

[Lampedampe]

Carlsson > Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Gauthier > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Mintyukov << Seider
LaCombe = Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Luneau > Johansson
Dostal > Cossa/Augustine

Ducks fan, so bias and viewing discrepancies may be present. Feel free to provide counter argument if you so desire. Also I have limited viewing of ASP so I don't really know who to value over one another. Lacombe and Ed is a tough comparison. I really like Edvinsson, he was my favorite prospect in the 2021 class for the Ducks. I put them equal because Lacombe was a legit top pair guy for much of this year and I think Edvinsson should become that, but also want to acknowledge that Lacombe needs to maintain that play as well. Also I really like MBN, it's just the other guy is a 3rd overall pick, controversial or not it's an disjointed pedigree between the two.
It should also be noted that most of those comparisons the Ducks get the privilege of the higher pedigree guy.

2nd vs 4th
3rd vs 8th
5th vs 9th
3rd vs 15th
10th vs 6th
39th vs 4th
34th vs 17th
53rd vs 60th
85th vs 15th

I don't think taking issue with the drafting is what the discussion should focus on, every notable Detroit draft pick is a guy that has succeeded or I found to be a strong pick, the only exception is maybe Danielson, but even then none of the guys taken shortly after him are absolute game changers imo. If you go pre Yzerman Rasmussen and Zadina obviously haven't been the greatest picks, but that feels a bit beside the point.

The strongest drafting criticism I can muster is perhaps they should have had a couple more notable steals outside of the 1st round by now. That does seem to be a bit lacking. For example the Ducks have sourced their blue line future from the 2nd round sans Minty and Solberg now as well.(Also should be noted ANA should not be looked at as a model rebuild as they have yet to take that step into the playoffs)

To me it seems evident that this rebuild is struggling more from FA acquisitions and coaching not delivering results. Hopefully the coaching change solves one of those problems.

Hard to disagree, i suppose i'd have Carlsson < Raymond for now though. But, with the way Carlsson ended this season i'm half-expecting him to surpass Raymond.

The choice is tough between McTavish and Kasper, i probably prefer Kasper over McTavish. His oiSH% is still low at 8.5, so you can definitely argue that his lower production is partly due to bad luck.

Really hope that ASP can tilt the scale in Wings favour.

Overall, quite spot on.

 

[SirKillalot]

It's arguably the biggest GM user error of the offseason. They punted away a top 4 defenseman and attached a pick just to be done with him, then the team doesn't have a second pair and takes a noticeable dive in the standings while the team that got paid a 2nd to take him gets a 1st, and Walman is likely playing top 4 minutes in the postseason.

It depends how you look at it. They "punted away" a borderline top four defenseman. Go look at this track record. And remember he is 29 years old now.
Now, would I personally have like to kept him, yes. Is it the end of the world, no.

As a standalone trade, it was a little bit puzzling trade as one later found out Yzerman didn't seek out other trade partners. Maybe he would have gotten a 3rd back instead of sending a 2nd away.
Yzerman sacrified Walman for capspace and time. He was in on bidding on players, in the end didn't get them, but in his mind it was a means to an end. And from what has come out there was some locker room issue, which also some players have aluded to was addressed in the offseason.

Also as mentioned it was part of two trades. Trade Gibson for Kiiskinen and a 2nd, add the 2nd and ship it with Walman.

Overall, that can end up being a win/win if Kiiskinen turns out being a top six winger long term.
And its a win for the Sharks for getting a 2nd to take on cap/player.

What the Sharks got after isn't really a part of the trade, kudos to them for hauling out a 1st from a desperate Oilers team. Don't think anyone believes Walman is worth a 1st, but hey if they win the cup its worth it right. Same as Tampa trading a haul for Jeannot.

Same goes for Hronek, he had a flash in Detroit and then just kinda became a derp. I'm happy he's doing well in Van but the reality is, he wasn't cutting it in Detroit and with what they guessed his ask was gonna be on a new contract, he wasn't playing to that level here.

Red Wings fans are mixed on Hronek. He had his warts, but to say he was playing bad isn't correct. It was mixed results and some of us liked him, some didn't, there was arguments for both sides of it. End of the day is Yzerman saw him as questionable in terms of age and size, thus also saw there is a new for younger assets where there is potential to end up with something better and did the trade.

Because it was one of the worst trades in the NHL in recent memory, considering that he traded him for literally nothing, only to see the Sharks pick up a 1st rounder for him months later. Not to mention he led the Sharks in defensive scoring while Red Wings fans were forced to look at Justin Holl, Jeff Petry, and Erik Gustavsson, 3 of the worst defensemen in the NHL.

Sending a what has been 4th defenseman with a pick isn't the worst trade of recent memory. A bit hasty yes.
Sharks did well with him, they got a haul for a sample size playing minutes he wouldn't get in Detroit. They could afford to just toss him up there and hope for the best. Not a single person thought he would return a 1st.

So, yeah in the end, long term it can work out for Detroit if Kiiskinen is a hit.
Long term it can work out for the Sharks if they hit something on the 2nd and the 1st they got out of hit.
Short term it can work out for Walman if he wins a cup with Edmonton, which I think he is a better fit with even though I don't think he's worth the price. But EDM paid to get depth in hopes of wanting to win now. Though now Ekholm is injured, so they gotta get out of the 1st round first.

You have to remember that for some Red Wings fans, Steve Yzerman is never wrong.

And you have to remember that for some other fans, if Yzerman just chew his gum wrong, they write three and a half pages to "criticize" each move fill up this thread.
Surprised they haven't criticized waiver moves and players getting called up and down and something wrong.

 

[Sports2]

I made a list of players either taken directly after Detroit's pick- or a pick owned by Detroit at one time, from the last 10 drafts.

Wyatt Johnston
Brock Faber
Filip Zadina Quinn Hughes
Gustav Lidstrom Jason Robertson
Evgeny Svechnikov Joel Eriksson Ek
Roope Hintz

Dallas and Minnesota eating Detroit's lunch.

 

[Ezekial]

Hold the f*** up, last time I was here it was on page 73 or something like that.
How the hell did it reach page 173!??!?!

Same people commenting a lions share of the posts. Insecurities on all sides

 

[SirKillalot]

Brock Faber

LA picked Faber and traded him for Fiala.
When it comes to the list, can do that for many teams most likely.
Minnesota also took Wallstedt so if he ends up better than Cossa that is a potential pitfall for Detroit who traded up for Cossa instead of picking Wallstedt.

 

[EmeticDonut]

I see the amount of discussion related to
(1), the time when the Wings were a juggeranut and Holland was considered a genius GM at the time, but his less successful stint in Edmonton pretty much solidified that it was mostly due to the luck in later draft picks (Zetterberg and Datsyuk) and bunch of HOF players on those teams.

(2) Yzerman's success in Tampa, also looks like mostly deft drafting and ability to sign good FA's (how much of this is just Yzerman's ability is up for debate).

People like to drag a once model franchise through the muck now when they are among mortal teams. The typical backlash and schadenfreude.

Who knew building a successful team is difficult and also luck is involved?

 

[SirKillalot]

Holland was considered a genius GM at the time, but his less successful stint in Edmonton pretty much solidified that it was mostly due to the luck in later draft picks (Zetterberg and Datsyuk) and bunch of HOF players on those teams.

To be fair Holland is the best GM Edmonton has had since a long time. Not saying he did everything right, but got them set up to at least get to the Stanley Cup Final, just the players didn't do the final job. Even though it wasn't and still isn't a perfectly well balanced team.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Carlsson > Raymond
McTavish > Kasper
Gauthier > Danielson
Sennecke > MBN
Mintyukov << Seider
LaCombe = Edvinsson
Zellweger = ASP
Luneau > Johansson
Dostal > Cossa/Augustine

Ducks fan, so bias and viewing discrepancies may be present. Feel free to provide counter argument if you so desire.

I could disagree on a few things (you seem to swap between current performance/potential based on what favors the Anaheim player). Bigger point however is that they're not too far off from eachother. The comp was for WarriorOfTime who seemed to think Anaheim's got a lot more to be excited about or something like that.

I made a list of players either taken directly after Detroit's pick- or a pick owned by Detroit at one time, from the last 10 drafts.

Wyatt Johnston
Brock Faber
Filip Zadina Quinn Hughes
Gustav Lidstrom Jason Robertson
Evgeny Svechnikov Joel Eriksson Ek
Roope Hintz

Dallas and Minnesota eating Detroit's lunch.

Here's a couple of guys drafted directly or shortly after a Dallas pick:

Tom Wilson (they drafted Radek Faksa)
Josh Morrissey (they drafted Nicushkin)
Dylan Larkin (they drafted Julius Honka)
Mathew Barzal/Kyle Connor/Thomas Chabot/Joel Eriksson Ek (they drafted Gurianov)
Tage Thompson (they drafted Riley Tufte)

 

[FiveTacos]

Carlsson Raymond and Dostal Cossa are awkward comps.
Potential franchise 1C that is 6'4 but not fully developed or proven vs established ppg winger
Developed proven starter vs high ceiling prospect.

The problem is they're really not at the same stage with most guys. For example, the best comp for Raymond is probably Gauthier as far as draft pedigree, position, etc, but they're years apart age and development wise. So this series of 1 for 1 comparisons just doesn't work cleanly.

The choice is tough between McTavish and Kasper, i probably prefer Kasper over McTavish.

McTavish's finish to his season was pretty impressive, what with like 32 points in the final 36 games. He might actually have low end 1C potential.

I also think people are totally sleeping on just how good Lacombe has been this year. He's been a legit 1D since December. I'm not assuming he's a 1D for sure next year, but if he replicates this next year he absolutely should be on the Olympic team in a significant role.

 

[Sports2]

Here's a couple of guys drafted directly or shortly after a Dallas pick:

Tom Wilson (they drafted Radek Faksa)
Josh Morrissey (they drafted Nicushkin)
Dylan Larkin (they drafted Julius Honka)
Mathew Barzal/Kyle Connor/Thomas Chabot/Joel Eriksson Ek (they drafted Gurianov)
Tage Thompson (they drafted Riley Tufte)

The implication with the (somewhat arbitrary) 10 year mark was that these players would now generally be between 21-28 and contributing to their teams success. Faksa played 9 seasons for the Stars, and is now on another team. Nichushkin played in Dallas 3 years, went to the KHL for 2 years, came back to Dallas for a year, and is on his 6th season with Colorado.
You also dug back to 2012, before the third longest tenured GM in the league in Nill started.

Unfortunately, this thread is also about Detroit’s downfall, not Dallas’- but you’re welcome to start a thread and I’ll be sure to check in.

 

[Michoulicious]

Of course they win 3 in a row to ensure they draft outside the top 10 again.

 

[newfy]

Please quote where I said 'it is completely obvious Stutzl is better'.

Your entire argument is based on me saying that. Good luck finding me saying that. I used their careers and you used their last 2 seasons. That is the difference statistically.

I do agree though, if you remove his 90 point, 39 goal season then it is much closer statistically.

You're right you never said those exact words. You just heavily implied it by saying they're easy to compare and posting stats that heavily favour Stutzle. Career points for a guy who has played an extra season and had his best season 3 years ago now vs a guy who has out produced him 2 years in a row now, and outscored him goal wise by a considerable margin in that time.

There isn't a point in using the whole careers of guys who are 22 years old when theres recent data to suggest they're much closer than career numbers show. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but its either disingenuous or an incompetent comparison the way you put it.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

This thread needs to be closed if people are going to keep coming in here criticizing detroits drafting, drafting has been the one thing they’ve been very good at under yzerman. I need people to get it through their heads that yzermans biggest issues have been roster construction, trades and FA.

 

[BigDaddyLurch]

This thread needs to be closed if people are going to keep coming in here criticizing detroits drafting, drafting has been the one thing they’ve been very good at under yzerman. I need people to get it through their heads that yzermans biggest issues have been roster construction, trades and FA.

...yup; as a Habs fan, I think Yzerman/Detroit has been pretty spot on when it comes to Drafting & Developement...it's his moves with the roster that are more than a bit suspect...

 

[Czechboy]

You're right you never said those exact words. You just heavily implied it by saying they're easy to compare and posting stats that heavily favour Stutzle. Career points for a guy who has played an extra season and had his best season 3 years ago now vs a guy who has out produced him 2 years in a row now, and outscored him goal wise by a considerable margin in that time.

There isn't a point in using the whole careers of guys who are 22 years old when theres recent data to suggest they're much closer than career numbers show. Maybe it wasn't intentional, but its either disingenuous or an incompetent comparison the way you put it.

You feel comparing career stats for 2 guys from same draft, same age is disengebuous?