Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Czechboy]

But a 50 pt very strong defensive C is a 2C

Absolutely that is!

Let me know when Kasper hits 50 points in one season.

 

[Czechboy]

So if we take Kaspers best stretch (which, it looks like he was actually pulled off center duties in January through February to get his offense going, he wasn’t taking draws and was playing with Larkin) he can maybe be interchanged with most teams second line center, but we can’t say he would play over any of the playoff teams second line centers.

Idk this feels like let’s try to shove Kasper into a role he really never hit to say he was a great pick. Reminds me of what we used to do with Mitts back in the day

I feel like if it is typed enough that he's a 2C with 50 points that everyone will eventually just believe it.lol

He’s a 21 years old rookie. to say he “really never hit” a role when he’s jsut breaking into the league as a rookie is asinine. If he’s like this two years from now sure.

It’s like saying Hutson wouldn’t dethrone many of the other teams 1D because he’s a rookie and hasn’t necessarily shown that level for a few years, and so therefore he’s not actually a 1D going forward. It’s an absurd argument.

The difference here is glaring though...

Hutson is tied top 5 in NHL d scoring. He not on 'pace' to be a top 5 D scorer. He actually has those points and is in the top 10 in scoring and will surely be a Norris nominee. He's top 60 in scoring overall. He's actually ahead of Hedman right now.

Kasper is 192nd amongst forwards and 230th overall.

The argument isn't that he's a rookie. The argument is that he doesn't have the actual points to be in the conversation.

Pace is not necessary when you play a full season.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Absolutely that is!

Let me know when Kasper hits 50 points in one season.

Yes. You’re right. Next season we’ll see if he repeats it. All we’re saying is he’s looking every bit the part. It’s not abnormal for a rookie to develop significantly over the course of a season lol.

 

[RedHawkDown]

View attachment 1012242

Feels like you're making a big deal out of 1 game? No?

View attachment 1012243

Top 3 ahead of who? This is second half of season? Don't forget about Wolf too.

I wouldn't say he's top 3 but the fact that he's In top 5 of scoring with guys like Michkov, Smith, and Gauthier who people are touting as future first liners or superstars should tell you something about the point we are trying to make here...

Also an exceptional defensive player as shown in the last game. He just gets better and better. Not saying he's some sort of superstar but I can absolutely see 60-70 pt shutdown 2way C in Kasper's future and that's a really great piece.

 

[Czechboy]

I wouldn't say he's top 3 but the fact that he's In top 5 of scoring with guys like Michkov, Smith, and Gauthier who people are touting as future first liners or superstars should tell you something about the point we are trying to make here...

Also an exceptional defensive player as shown in the last game. He just gets better and better. Not saying he's some sort of superstar but I can absolutely see 60-70 pt shutdown 2way C in Kasper's future and that's a really great piece.

He's top 5 for half a season. But not for a full one.

I agree he's looking very promising. However, sophomore slumps are a thing. So are small sample sizes.

Eg. Kulich (same draft 20 spots later) is also having a very promising season with some real nice small sample sizes of points. It's very encouraging but I'm not ready to call him an NHL 2C and he usually plays on line 1 for Buffalo.

Hell, last few games, Adam Klapka looks very good and has been on first line for the Flames playoff push and I'm not even sure I think he'll ever be a Top 6 NHL regular.lol

Jakub Dobes came in and looked like he'd win the Vezina.

Martin Necas led lead scoring after 2 months and looked like he may get 300 points. He's at 81.

My point? Staying healthy and producing for 82 games is very hard and a skill in itself. Doing it year over year is even harder.

But, I do think Kasper is looking good! I'm just not ready to call him a 50 point 2C.lol

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Kasper hasn’t been a top 3 rookie the second half of the season, but he is playing very very good and will only get better. Him being a bonafide stud defensive center with close to 20 goals as a rookie is very impressive. He will be a great player for the red wings rebuild, I don’t see why we have to argue over him this year tho. 35 points is a great rookie season.

 

[Breakers]

Damn

So Yzerman really does suck at his job

 

[CowbellConray]

Hughes is gone so Kasper would be a massive upgrade.

I’m viewing from the organization standpoint, healthy right now isn’t a consideration for me. This to me was a discussion on team building, if Kasper would be considered a second line center on a team that would be playing for a playoff spot across a season. He isn't there right now.

He’s a 21 years old rookie. to say he “really never hit” a role when he’s jsut breaking into the league as a rookie is asinine. If he’s like this two years from now sure.

It’s like saying Hutson wouldn’t dethrone many of the other teams 1D because he’s a rookie and hasn’t necessarily shown that level for a few years, and so therefore he’s not actually a 1D going forward. It’s an absurd argument.

I'm saying that if we are saying "right now Kasper is a second line center" when a) He has played 17 games at center since his adjustment up the lineup in January and b) right now if we compare center depth on the 16 playoff teams (not taking Hughes injury in account) he would be considered a #2 center on maybe 3 of the 16 means RIGHT NOW he is not a playoff quality second line center.

He absolutely can be a second line center maybe as early as next year. But saying "he is a second line center in the league" isn't accurate - at least not a on a successful team

 

[CowbellConray]

At this exact moment no. But he played at like a 50pt pace once taken off the 4th line when Lalonde was fired as a 20yo

Could easily see him getting in the 55-65pt range next season, which is pretty good 2C numbers

Agreed - he could be one. And I'm thinking he is a 55 point guy next year. But the person I responded to said that Kasper was a second line center right now because he has had a good 20 games there and to me, that doesn't make him a second line center. He is potentially emerging as one, but not there yet.

BTW - I'm not wishing him not to succeed - I like Kasper. I just am trying to speak to the realities that we can't prop a player up into a sure fire role when they haven't quite hit that bar consistently yet.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Agreed - he could be one. And I'm thinking he is a 55 point guy next year. But the person I responded to said that Kasper was a second line center right now because he has had a good 20 games there and to me, that doesn't make him a second line center. He is potentially emerging as one, but not there yet.

BTW - I'm not wishing him not to succeed - I like Kasper. I just am trying to speak to the realities that we can't prop a player up into a sure fire role when they haven't quite hit that bar consistently yet.

I agree with you. It’s not fair to say he’s that consistently yet but I think he easily hits it moving forward. We will see.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Trust the Yzerplan!

 

[NVious]

So what's the most liberal-conservative estimates on how long Yzerman has left?

Is there any chance he already gets canned? How many more years does he get?

 

[Fatass]

So what's the most liberal-conservative estimates on how long Yzerman has left?

Is there any chance he already gets canned? How many more years does he get?

I’m be more season.

 

[Dr Quincy]

not saying he’s better than the 2nd line Cs most teams have, so im not saying he’s replacing the guys other teams have like Byfield Schenn etc. But a 50 pt very strong defensive C is a 2C interchangeable with most other teams 2Cs. And he’s got potential to be better.

He's not a 50 pt center(yet). He's a 34 pt center. You can't just gift him hypothetical pts.

 

[RedHawkDown]

He's not a 50 pt center. He's a 34 pt center. You can't just gift him hypothetical pts.

Ok
My point and the discussion has been well covered above
He played on the 4th line for half the season
Whatever you say

 

[Super Fadio Bro]

So what's the most liberal-conservative estimates on how long Yzerman has left?

Is there any chance he already gets canned? How many more years does he get?

I’d give him one last chance.

 

[Johnny Tomala]

OFFICIAL. 9th straight season without making playoffs.

 

[Run the Jewels]

So what's the most liberal-conservative estimates on how long Yzerman has left?

Is there any chance he already gets canned? How many more years does he get?

Sorry to break the news to everyone, but he's not getting canned. Team showed improvement under McLellan and he'll get a full season next year. Marco Kasper showed he's an NHL scoring line forward and will likely fill the 2C role next season as a 21 year old which will give them a top 3 at center of Larkin, Kasper and Copp. They'll have a top 3 on defense of Seider, Edvinsson and Sandin-Pelikka. There's a good chance Brandsegg-Nygård and Danielson make the team next season to build out depth at forward.

Everyone can say 9 years until they're blue in the face, they're the exact reason Yzerman never said the team would make the playoffs within X years. He said his goal was to build a core that will hopefully have a long window to compete. And he's just about filled all of the core spots through the draft.

Forwards: Raymond, Kasper, Brandsegg-Nygård, Danielson, Berggren, Söderblom, Mazur
Defense: Seider, Edvinsson, Sandin-Pelikka, Albert Johansson
Guys who will get a look in training camp: Lombardi, Wallinder, Buium

That's 14 guys who are 24 and under and are all legit NHL players. Some will make it, some will be moved in trades, the bottom line is the hard work has nearly paid off as Detroit is close to having a core that will be competitive.

So keep saying 9 years, it literally makes no difference.

 

[Bank Shot]

Forwards: Raymond, Kasper, Brandsegg-Nygård, Danielson, Berggren, Söderblom, Mazur
Defense: Seider, Edvinsson, Sandin-Pelikka, Albert Johansson
Guys who will get a look in training camp: Lombardi, Wallinder, Buium

That's 14 guys who are 24 and under and are all legit NHL players. Some will make it, some will be moved in trades, the bottom line is the hard work has nearly paid off as Detroit is close to having a core that will be competitive.

So keep saying 9 years, it literally makes no difference.

I agree they have a core that is close to being competitive.

I don't think they have a core that is close to being a contender.

Is a 10 year rebuild worth it if your team tops out as a 4-6th seed in the conference?

 

[Run the Jewels]

I agree they have a core that is close to being competitive.

I don't think they have a core that is close to being a contender.

Is a 10 year rebuild worth it if your team tops out as a 4-6th seed in the conference?

No offense, but you have no idea what the ceiling is for this group. No one does. But Yzerman has done the hard work and has proven in the past he's willing to make deals.

 

[Golden_Jet]

No offense, but you have no idea what the ceiling is for this group. No one does. But Yzerman has done the hard work and has proven in the past he's willing to make deals.

I think that’s part of his problem, he is reportedly hard to deal with,

 

[Run the Jewels]

I think that’s part of his problem, he is reportedly hard to deal with,

Any links to those reports?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Any links to those reports?

Google, listen to some GM’s speak, listen to podcasts and hockey news in general.
It’s not something new, it was the same in TB.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Google, listen to some GM’s speak, listen to podcasts and hockey news in general.
It’s not something new, it was the same in TB.

Ah so absolutely nothing substantial. Thanks for that.

 

[seafoam]

Did we ever get a explaining as to why he traded Walman with a top 64 pick for nothing?