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Detroit Redwings Downfall

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Artaud said:
That is such a fanboy take.

Seider turns 24 in a few days. He's not really young anymore. Yes, some defensemen turn out to be late bloomers, but most have hit their prime by the time they turn 24, or at least they are close to it.

Can Seider take another step forward? Sure, but he's also stagnated ever since his amazing rookie season. Right now, I would not bet on him ever being a Norris winner.

The simple truth is this : the Red Wings aborted their tank before they had the chance to grab a good enough player to become an elite team.
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Not saying Seider is Hedman, but do you remember Victor Hedman's linear development curve in his first 5 season? Seider is only in year four....
 
Dotter said:
Despite this, DRWs outperformed Sens last season, and Sens are a smidge better than DRWs this season, with DET having the worst coach in the NHL (Lalonde) sinking them at the start of the season.
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Yes, the DRW had 11 points more than Ottawa last season, and the "smidge" that the Sens are better this season is 10 points as of today.

You may also be unaware that Ottawa still had DJ Smith coaching last season, whose .464 over 300+ games is considerably worse than Derek Lalonde's .506.

I'm hearing about how Copp being out of the lineup has crippled the Wings, while Ottawa had both #2C Norris and #3C Pinto out for ~half a season last year.

A lot of things can factor into the success of a season which is why you can't just prognosticate inevitable linear improvement because you have a bunch of young guys in your system.
 
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Dotter said:
Majority of Wings core is under 23 (6 NHL roster players under 23). In comparison, most of Senators core is over 24.

While "technically" Wings started their rebuild before Sens. However Ken Holland botched it and Yzerman had to go full-on scorched earth and clean up his mess when he got here. That took 2 years.

So I count this as Wings second rebuild attempt, and it started in 2019.

Despite this, DRWs outperformed Sens last season, and Sens are a smidge better than DRWs this season, with DET having the worst coach in the NHL (Lalonde) sinking them at the start of the season.

To top it off, Wings best prospects have not even yet.
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I mean our best prospect definitely have hit. Outside of ASP potentially being more valuable than Kasper, no one else will likely be as good as Ray/Ed/Seider

But they will be much needed depth who are actually good NHL player. No more Comphera or Holl’s on the team ideally
 
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nbwingsfan said:
So one example from a guy who requested a trade and could still choose where he wanted to go…Any others?
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Sam Reinhardt. Matt Tkatchuk. Goalie Bob. Alex Pietrangelo. Just to list a few more. There are key core players who come available. Yzerman needs to pay the price, whether it’s via trade of free agency. That’s his big miss. He’s been unable to get the key elite guys. He has good players. But is missing the elite ones.
 
WarriorofTime said:
Their franchise players were more like Eichel, Stone, Pietrangelo, Theodore imo. Guys like Marchessault and DeBrincat are of course nice additional pieces when you have more of that foundation there.
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Vegas (if I remember correctly) only had one of their own drafted players on their Cup winner. Yzerman’s plan to build only via the draft is the old way.
 
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newfy said:
You hate the wings so much that you cant even say the wings got good value in the Debrincat trade?
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Huh... What did I hurt your feelings or something, I've said the value was fine.
newfy said:
They traded for a 25 year old with a couple 40 goal seasons, who they got 27 goals 67 points out of last year. Hes now on pace for 37 goals, and 70 points...
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Yes, they have a 27 year old in his prime who is 33rd in goals and 54th in points cumulatively the last couple seasons. That's great and all....
newfy said:
the only thing worth while they gave up is a late first rounder,
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Ok? I agree the value is good. I suppose it's better in a perfect to sign in free agency and give up well nothing, but is it the end of the world? Obviously not.
newfy said:
and you cant just outright say they did well in that trade lol?
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I'm not sure what level of praising is appropriate, but I'm sorry it's not enough for you. The value is fine. I'll say it again. The value is fine.
newfy said:
Hes 2 goals outta the top 10 in scoring for god's sake.
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That's awesome...
newfy said:
The year before he was traded for the 7th and 39th overall plus a future 4th
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Right so that trade obviously didn't work out well for Ottawa so they had to salvage what they could out of it before he walked for nothing, which was his right as a guy that was a year away from being a 1-year unrestricted free agent if he just signed a qualifying offer which was his right to do....
 
NyQuil said:
Yes, the DRW had 11 points more than Ottawa last season, and the "smidge" that the Sens are better this season is 10 points as of today.

You may also be unaware that Ottawa still had DJ Smith coaching last season, whose .464 over 300+ games is considerably worse than Derek Lalonde's .506.

I'm hearing about how Copp being out of the lineup has crippled the Wings, while Ottawa had both #2C Norris and #3C Pinto out for ~half a season last year.

A lot of things can factor into the success of a season which is why you can't just prognosticate inevitable linear improvement because you have a bunch of young guys in your system.
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My main point was Wings young core is six players on the roster 23 and under. I don't know about the Copp argument. I think it was more of a recent goaltending collapse, whereas Ullmark has won games Sens otherwise didn't belong in.
 
nbwingsfan said:
I mean our best prospect definitely have hit. Outside of ASP potentially being more valuable than Kasper, no one else will likely be as good as Ray/Ed/Seider

But they will be much needed depth who are actually good NHL player. No more Comphera or Holl’s on the team ideally
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Cossa is the main building block.

I expect Danielsson to come in and perform at Kasper's level. And I'm really high on MBN. With Kiiskinen being the cherry on top.

ASP is already the hot topic, so no need for me to mention him.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Dmitri Buchelnikov. He's tearing up the KHL and been off my radar.
 
Hockeyfan2390 said:
Wrong.

The Lightning made the Conference Final in his first year. After missing for two straight years, they were right back in the playoffs in 2014. There was no 6 year drought under Yzerman (or 10 straight overall).,

Kucherov was drafted in 2011; he was in the NHL in 2013. Point was drafted in 2014 and was in the NHL in 2015. Vasilevskiy was drafted in 2012 and was in the NHL in 2014. They all stepped in and immediately began making meaningful contributions.

Furthermore, Kucherov, Vasilevskiy and Point are superstars. There is literally zero indication that Nate Danielson and his 9 goals in 61 AHL games will reach that level. How about Michael Brandsegg-Nygard and his 5 goals in 42 games this season?

We saw what Carter Mazur and his non-existent upper body look like at the NHL level - it lasted two shifts.

Going into year 7 on the job with no playoffs is unacceptable. There was no such drought with the Lightning. Spare me the "patient" nonsense. Jeff Vinnik, a real NHL owner, would never have allowed it.

The Red Wings must make the playoffs comfortably next season, or Yzerman needs to be fired. Period, end of story. No more coasting on his last name with terrible free agent signings and the excuse of "just wait for the kids" and demanding that the paying customers continue to shell out ridiculous money for a product that they openly admit isn't trying to win yet.



Again, there's literally zero indication that any of these prospects aside from Sandin-Pellikka (which are nothing but job security for Yzerman to try and excuse his abysmal free-agent signings and the horrible decision to hire and keep Lalonde) will be elite NHL talents.

They're "near" the playoff bubble? That's the standard in Detroit? Let's see if a surgeon can get away with "Well, I almost saved my patients even if they all ended up dying on the operating table! Just give me 3-4 more years!"


A rebuild does not - I repeat - DOES NOT take 6 full years just to barely scrap into the playoffs if done correctly.

They're competitive? They're 2-10 in their last 12 games and just got blasted by a combined score of 10-4 in their last two games. They're melting down in the most crucial part of the schedule for the 3rd straight year.

Cap flexibility? They had $14 million to use at the Trade Deadline and acquired the corpse of Craig Smith and decided for some bizarre reason to bring back Mrazek and his 3.50 GAA (he and Talbot are under contract for another year, which means another year of no Cossa.)

How did they use their cap space in the summer (besides the Raymond and Seider contracts, which should not have taken until training camp had already started to work out)? How are those Tarasenko and Gustafsson deals looking? How about the Copp and Compher Ken Holland-esque deals?

Deep in prospects? Again, literally zero indication that any of these prospects (AKA job security) aside from ASP are going to be elite, game-changing talents. Detroit doesn't need more mid-level depth players - that's what they have now.

Fan patience is dwindling with Yzerman, as it should be. He's no longer able to coast on his last name and expect to be granted an endless runway just to make it back to the playoffs. Anyone else would have been fired by now.

Spare me the "but but he had to start with nothing" excuse. Irrelevant. He was the supposedly best GM in hockey, and he's going into year 7 with no playoff appearances (and yes, playoff experience is critical for players like Seider and Raymond, even if it means they get blasted in the first round).

"But Yzerman didn't win the Cup until he was 33! It takes time!" By the time 1997 rolled around, Yzerman had nearly 100 games of playoff experience.
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Are you a fan of the red wings or Chris Illitch?
 
Dotter said:
Cossa is the main building block.

I expect Danielsson to come in and perform at Kasper's level. And I'm really high on MBN. With Kiiskinen being the cherry on top.

ASP is already the hot topic, so no need for me to mention him.

EDIT: I forgot to mention Dmitri Buchelnikov. He's tearing up the KHL and been off my radar.
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I get you’re excited, but the chances any of those players end up 1st line PPG players or top pairing D are very low.

Cossa is still a few years away from being a starter
 
nbwingsfan said:
I get you’re excited, but the chances any of those players end up 1st line PPG players or top pairing D are very low.

Cossa is still a few years away from being a starter
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"Some of the best" -don't need all those guys to be top line players, just need them to be cost controlled winners.

I don't think you need McDavid if you have high octane wingers. Adding Danielsson will add some amazing center depth... assuming he is as good as Kasper.

I think we are set at center. Our biggest need is reliable goaltending, scoring wingers and a PMD. We have a #1 and #2 dman. Our center depth with Danielsson is solid. Sure, celebrini would be nice, but not needed if you have some top wingers, and dmen who can hold the line and move the puck.
 
I find it strange how passionate so many other team fans are that want the wings to fire Yzerman. I think Yzerman deserves some criticism, but his drafting has been as very strong and I like the general path the wings are on.

A lot of the casual fans that are screeching 6 years it's been 6 years, dont understand how desolate the state of the organization was in when Yzerman took over.

This was always going to be a long and painful process.
 
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Hockeyfan2390 said:
Going into year 7 on the job with no playoffs is unacceptable. There was no such drought with the Lightning. Spare me the "patient" nonsense. Jeff Vinnik, a real NHL owner, would never have allowed it
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it's so funny to me when people say this kind of shit. you're still watching the games and discussing it endlessly on the internet, so apparently it is acceptable to you
 
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AlwaysSunnyInDetroit said:
it's so funny to me when people say this kind of shit. you're still watching the games and discussing it endlessly on the internet, so apparently it is acceptable to you
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And why should it matter how many years they miss the playoffs?

As long as the team is headed in the general right direction. The worse thing that team can do imo is get cold feet and make a move the disrupts the vision that is being used to build the team.

I know most posters are going to scoff at this but the wings are build a tough deep hardnosed team that should make a jump in the not so distant future.

The only problem is the rebuild isnt happening fast enough for Larkin's career to line up with our window.
 
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wingerdinger said:
A lot of the casual fans that are screeching 6 years it's been 6 years, dont understand how desolate the state of the organization was in when Yzerman took over.

This was always going to be a long and painful process.
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And we're right back to the "look at what he inherited" excuse. What on earth makes you think that only casual fans have noticed that the Red Wings are currently stuck in the longest non-playoff drought literally in their team history (as a nearly 100-year-old Original 6 club, that's shocking)?
 
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