Detroit Redwings Downfall

[dekelikekocur]

I mean you have an example like Copp where it was pretty much publicly said that he was texting different Wings players before the TDL even opened about joining the team.

Then you have a move like trading for the ghost of Jeff Petry right after you just signed a mediocre RHD in Holl the month prior.

Then you trade Olli Maatta to make roster space for AlJo when you could've just not signed a wet fart like Erik Gustafsson.

The Petry trade I still say was an ownership decision handed to Yzerman.

Maatta? The dude who reupped for 3 more years? Gus is gone after next year, Maatta will be with Utah for 2 more years after that. Both suck, so 2 less years of Gus and the spot goes to a kid or is reassessed.

It's like you haven't ever looked at projections, development or anything else when these kids are expected to come up. The copp signing is bad in hindsight but at the time, wasn't bad. He's still buriable. In fact, I'm pretty sure every single UFA contract Yzerman has signed is buriable w/o impacting the cap situation as kids push these people out.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

The Petry trade I still say was an ownership decision handed to Yzerman.

Maatta? The dude who reupped for 3 more years? Gus is gone after next year, Maatta will be with Utah for 2 more years after that. Both suck, so 2 less years of Gus and the spot goes to a kid or is reassessed.

It's like you haven't ever looked at projections, development or anything else when these kids are expected to come up. The copp signing is bad in hindsight but at the time, wasn't bad. He's still buriable. In fact, I'm pretty sure every single UFA contract Yzerman has signed is buriable w/o impacting the cap situation as kids push these people out.

Of all the moves ownership could instruct Yzerman to make... Jeff Petry??

I guess I don't get what Maatta re-signing with Utah has to do with us trading him? Why is that relevant at all? And no, Maatta sucks significantly less than Gustafsson. Like, not even close.

"The Copp signing is bad in hindsight but at the time, wasn't bad." You should probably go read the confirmed signing thread at the time it occurred. A lot of people shit on it.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

who knows what happened? maybe he called larkin the N word.

The Kevin Garnett special

 

[bert]

I wouldn't rate it as an incredible job. He's done around 5 trades and some signings.
He hasn't even been GM for two seasons and you gonna rate him as the super GM.
Yes his start has been encouraging I think, but earlier this year they were also down in the standings and lately been on a hot streak.


Nothing about blind loyalty. More about don't judging the work based off small sample sizes.
It still waits to be seen where things end up. Let's see in two years time where Ottawa is.

You dont want to look deeper into it I guess. He has done alot more than '5 trades and some signings'. He has built a culture and identity for this organization and Team from the training staff, to pro scouting, to coaching and management. Staios has turned a terrible defensive team into a strong one. He insulated the young core with strong veterans that have brought the best out of them. Look at how Jensen has impacted Chabots game or the impact Perron has had on Batherson and Cozens. Staios had almost no cap space and very little prospects and is losing a first round pick this year or next looming over the organization. He managed to address every major need and somehow got out from under that albatross of a contract that Norris and his unfortunately injured shoulders. He got a starting goalie and hired a coaching staff that has brought consistency and a way more detailed oriented game.

He clearly had a vision and executed it under less than ideal circumstances. Personally as a hardcore fan I knew this was what needed to be done but didn't see a way of getting to this point.

Ottawa's young core is still improving, it will be slow and methodical but I dont think its going to get any worse when we check back in 2 years. Stutzle, Pinto, Sanderson, Cozens, Greig are still not fully developed and haven't entered their prime years yet in terms of development.

 

[bert]

It was. I also think Detroit's drafting (under Yzerman) has either been incredible or has the potential to be.
The difference is you KNOW how the Tampa picks developed, but we don't yet know the full outcome of Detroit's picks.


He has played 37 games?

Yes the difference is that we do know... that it was good. I dont really understand this argument. You could say the second thing about any team and how they have drafted until the players turn out. I think the Raymond and Seider picks were incredible just not enough of those.

I want Yzerman to succeed, I am a gigantic fan. I am a little surprised it hasnt gone better for Detroit but he has made some strange decisions. They have got unlucky in the draft lottery much like Ottawa. Now the rules have changed in terms of how much a team can drop. Sucks for those two organizations.

Ullmark has played a 49 game season. You said he has never done that. He definitely is a legit number 1 but his work load does need to be managed.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yes the difference is that we do know... that it was good. I dont really understand this argument. You could say the second thing about any team and how they have drafted until the players turn out. I think the Raymond and Seider picks were incredible just not enough of those.

"Just not enough of those."

I mean all of Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson are top 3 picks in their respective redrafts, Kasper looks Top 10 worthy, and ASP looks like he should've gone much higher... I dunno how you can expect much better out of a team with their top picks.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Of all the moves ownership could instruct Yzerman to make... Jeff Petry??

I guess I don't get what Maatta re-signing with Utah has to do with us trading him? Why is that relevant at all? And no, Maatta sucks significantly less than Gustafsson. Like, not even close.

"The Copp signing is bad in hindsight but at the time, wasn't bad." You should probably go read the confirmed signing thread at the time it occurred. A lot of people shit on it.

The Petry thing, his dad works for the Tigers (who are owned by the Illitchs) His dad played for the Tigers way back in the day, there's a long family association with the Wings ownership and the Detroit area.

If Maatta wasn't willing to sign a 1 yr deal (which would put him on the same time frame as what Gus is for exiting the org). Probably looked at who was gonna be ufa and who they had a shot at signing? No idea, but Yzerman has been really specific on signings that align with his timeline and when kids are expected to come up.

It's a good thing I don't consider most peoples opinions to be worth much. Copp is what he is, he was signed to be a center, to hopefully fill that 2nd line center role, and he wasn't great at it, none of us know if there were better/worse/any other options. We needed that slot filled and he's the one who signed a contract.

So many people rip on the wings without considering UFA signings are a two way street. Just because you want a specific player, it doesn't mean said player wants you. Comes across very juvenile in a "I can date who I want" when the reality is, your choice is limited by which of them wanting to date you.

Pro scouting is entirely dependant on the player wanting to play for you.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

The Petry thing, his dad works for the Tigers (who are owned by the Illitchs) His dad played for the Tigers way back in the day, there's a long family association with the Wings ownership and the Detroit area.

If Maatta wasn't willing to sign a 1 yr deal (which would put him on the same time frame as what Gus is for exiting the org). Probably looked at who was gonna be ufa and who they had a shot at signing? No idea, but Yzerman has been really specific on signings that align with his timeline and when kids are expected to come up.

It's a good thing I don't consider most peoples opinions to be worth much. Copp is what he is, he was signed to be a center, to hopefully fill that 2nd line center role, and he wasn't great at it, none of us know if there were better/worse/any other options. We needed that slot filled and he's the one who signed a contract.

So many people rip on the wings without considering UFA signings are a two way street. Just because you want a specific player, it doesn't mean said player wants you. Comes across very juvenile in a "I can date who I want" when the reality is, your choice is limited by which of them wanting to date you.

Pro scouting is entirely dependant on the player wanting to play for you.

Yes... Ownership demanded that Yzerman get Petry because his Daddy was a mediocre pitcher for the Tigers 40 years ago.

If Maatta wasn't willing to sign you run his deal out and go grab another bargain bin 3rd pairing D to a one year in the offseason.

"It's a good thing I don't consider most people's opinions to be worth much." Bruh, you literally said the Copp signing is bad in hindsight but wasn't at the time, and when I contested that by pointing out many people said it was bad at the time, this is your defense? Maybe you should consider those people's opinions to be worth a little more considering, by your own admission, they were right in hindsight...

"Thankfully I don't give a f*** what those people who ended up being right think!" Dude what?!

 

[WarriorofTime]

The Petry thing, his dad works for the Tigers (who are owned by the Illitchs) His dad played for the Tigers way back in the day, there's a long family association with the Wings ownership and the Detroit area.

If Maatta wasn't willing to sign a 1 yr deal (which would put him on the same time frame as what Gus is for exiting the org). Probably looked at who was gonna be ufa and who they had a shot at signing? No idea, but Yzerman has been really specific on signings that align with his timeline and when kids are expected to come up.

It's a good thing I don't consider most peoples opinions to be worth much. Copp is what he is, he was signed to be a center, to hopefully fill that 2nd line center role, and he wasn't great at it, none of us know if there were better/worse/any other options. We needed that slot filled and he's the one who signed a contract.

So many people rip on the wings without considering UFA signings are a two way street. Just because you want a specific player, it doesn't mean said player wants you. Comes across very juvenile in a "I can date who I want" when the reality is, your choice is limited by which of them wanting to date you.

Pro scouting is entirely dependant on the player wanting to play for you.

Wings pro scouting has been atrocious. I guess not too unexpected when the GM's brother is hired due to nepotism and the rest of the front office is a "getting the boys back to together" reunion of former 90s/00s players. Their front office looks a lot like the Kevin Lowe Oilers group. It's not clear if they have much of a plan at this point other than just waiting around for some 7th round superstars to come in and bail them out like back in the day.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Yes... Ownership demanded that Yzerman get Petry because his Daddy was a mediocre pitcher for the Tigers 40 years ago.

If Maatta wasn't willing to sign you run his deal out and go grab another bargain bin 3rd pairing D to a one year in the offseason.

"It's a good thing I don't consider most people's opinions to be worth much." Bruh, you literally said the Copp signing is bad in hindsight but wasn't at the time, and when I contested that by pointing out many people said it was bad at the time, this is your defense? Maybe you should consider those people's opinions to be worth a little more considering, by your own admission, they were right in hindsight...

"Thankfully I don't give a f*** what those people who ended up being right think!" Dude what?!

His dad currently works for the Tigers as an analyst on Tigers Radio and also in Studio for Bally. We had 6 or 7 D already when we traded for him. If he didn't have the ties, it wouldn't have happened. Not really all that different than Drapers kid (Think it was Keenan?) who got drafted with a 6th or 7th round pick by the wings. Or the any other numerous things that have occurred over the years where people closely associated with the family has occurred.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

His dad currently works for the Tigers as an analyst on Tigers Radio and also in Studio for Bally. We had 6 or 7 D already when we traded for him. If he didn't have the ties, it wouldn't have happened. Not really all that different than Drapers kid (Think it was Keenan?) who got drafted with a 6th or 7th round pick by the wings. Or the any other numerous things that have occurred over the years where people closely associated with the family has occurred.

Thank got John Keating doesn't have any mediocre NHL players in his family, amirite?!

Also appreciate the abandoning ship on your Copp argument.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Wings pro scouting has been atrocious. I guess not too unexpected when the GM's brother is hired due to nepotism and the rest of the front office is a "getting the boys back to together" reunion of former 90s/00s players. Their front office looks a lot like the Kevin Lowe Oilers group. It's not clear if they have much of a plan at this point other than just waiting around for some 7th round superstars to come in and bail them out like back in the day.

Just because you scout someone does not mean they'll sign with you. I mean seriously, if they have a spot to fill and they go after x y or z and all three are like nah, not signing. They still have a spot to fill and need a body to fill it. None of this info is shared with us, how would we know who they're looking at? All we know is who would sign.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Just because you scout someone does not mean they'll sign with you. I mean seriously, if they have a spot to fill and they go after x y or z and all three are like nah, not signing.

This is silly. Good value contracts get picked up every year. Teams with good scouting are able to identify these types of players that fit the team well and get them. That's the name of the game. If the Wings didn't offer any $/term to the good value guys, didn't do a good job of identifying the bargain bin, then what are we even talking about here?

Seriously, do you consider teams to have good amateur scouting if they make bad draft selections but are like "well we had Connor McDavid first on our board, he just wasn't available at our pick"? Because that is more or less the argument you're making.

They still have a spot to fill and need a body to fill it. None of this info is shared with us, how would we know who they're looking at? All we know is who would sign.

Who they sign and who they trade for is the end result of their pro scouting efforts. The results have been less than adequate to date. You can get away with it for a bit when "just keeping seats warm for al the prospects" but the team's been rebuilding for 9 years now. Same as a draft, there's a lot of luck to it all of course, so maybe it'll turn around, but to say "we don't know if they did a good or bad job" six years into the "Yzerplan" when the results have not been good is not a standard any other GM is ever held to.

 

[dekelikekocur]

Thank got John Keating doesn't have any mediocre NHL players in his family, amirite?!

Also appreciate the abandoning ship on your Copp argument.

I answered regarding Copp. Exactly what else do you want to hear? Mid level replacement player, Kasper has taken the spot as expected, I'd of preferred Kasper spent more time on top line as a winger similar to Larkin's first year on Z's wing, but an opportunity presented itself and Kasper is stepping in quite nicely. Ya all keep acting like these were long term/core type signings when they're literally replacement level stop gap/warm bodies. This narrative that so many want to push has been proven wrong time and time again and yet they keep circling back to it shifting goal posts.

Guess what? I don't care who they gave 5m to, it's not my money, as long as the player gets pushed down/out when the kids start pushing into the lineup and pushing into their positions. Copp can play 4th line center for all I care. None of these contracts have stopped the kids from getting theirs when it's time for them to sign.

 

[dekelikekocur]

This is silly. Good value contracts get picked up every year. Teams with good scouting are able to identify these types of players that fit the team well and get them. That's the name of the game. If the Wings didn't offer any $/term to the good value guys, didn't do a good job of identifying the bargain bin, then what are we even talking about here?

Seriously, do you consider teams to have good amateur scouting if they make bad draft selections but are like "well we had Connor McDavid first on our board, he just wasn't available at our pick"? Because that is more or less the argument you're making.

Who they sign and who they trade for is the end result of their pro scouting efforts. The results have been less than adequate to date. You can get away with it for a bit when "just keeping seats warm for al the prospects" but the team's been rebuilding for 9 years now. Same as a draft, there's a lot of luck to it all of course, so maybe it'll turn around, but to say "we don't know if they did a good or bad job" six years into the "Yzerplan" when the results have not been good is not a standard any other GM is ever held to.

Dude, you can NOT force someone to sign with you. As has been said repeatedly, we have no idea who they've targeted, all we know is who has signed. The entire crux of your argument is your lack of understanding of consent.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Dude, you can NOT force someone to sign with you. As has been said repeatedly, we have no idea who they've targeted, all we know is who has signed. The entire crux of your argument is your lack of understanding of consent.

"Dude", you CAN target specific players and bring in players that fit your organization well even if correct, you can't just say "hey Jack Eichel, you're good, now you are ours"

Like I'm not sure what you don't understand here. You're asking someone to prove a negative.

 

[dekelikekocur]

"Dude", you CAN target specific players and bring in players that fit your organization well even if correct, you can't just say "hey Jack Eichel, you're good, now you are ours"

Like I'm not sure what you don't understand here. You're asking someone to prove a negative.

You really aren't capable of understanding consent are you?

Who you target does not matter if they aren't willing to sign. Do you understand that absolute basic premise? If you need to fill a spot and have an extremely limited choice to who to fill it with, (yet again we don't know who else they were scouting/in discussions with), all we know is who signed.

This isn't NHL24 where you can sign damn near anyone.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I answered regarding Copp. Exactly what else do you want to hear? Mid level replacement player, Kasper has taken the spot as expected, I'd of preferred Kasper spent more time on top line as a winger similar to Larkin's first year on Z's wing, but an opportunity presented itself and Kasper is stepping in quite nicely. Ya all keep acting like these were long term/core type signings when they're literally replacement level stop gap/warm bodies. This narrative that so many want to push has been proven wrong time and time again and yet they keep circling back to it shifting goal posts.

Guess what? I don't care who they gave 5m to, it's not my money, as long as the player gets pushed down/out when the kids start pushing into the lineup and pushing into their positions. Copp can play 4th line center for all I care. None of these contracts have stopped the kids from getting theirs when it's time for them to sign.

Your answer for Copp dead-ended when you said you were thankful that you didn't care about the opinions of people who said it was a bad signing initially... After conceding that it was a bad signing in hindsight.

That was the point you stopped discussing him.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You really aren't capable of understanding consent are you?

I understand it well.... but thanks for the condescension.

Who you target does not matter if they aren't willing to sign. Do you understand that absolute basic premise? If you need to fill a spot and have an extremely limited choice to who to fill it with, (yet again we don't know who else they were scouting/in discussions with), all we know is who signed.

Do you understand that a good organization has a Plan A, a Plan B and a Plan C? If Plan A doesn't work out, do you just shrug your shoulders and say "well shucks, we didn't get our top target" and just go sign whichever crap player is available to fill your cap space?

This isn't NHL24 where you can sign damn near anyone.

But what you can do is plan accordingly and target overall players that fit into the organization.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Wings pro scouting has been atrocious. I guess not too unexpected when the GM's brother is hired due to nepotism and the rest of the front office is a "getting the boys back to together" reunion of former 90s/00s players. Their front office looks a lot like the Kevin Lowe Oilers group. It's not clear if they have much of a plan at this point other than just waiting around for some 7th round superstars to come in and bail them out like back in the day.

Except when you bring them up, the usual refrain from the (thankfully shrinking) segment of Yzerbots is "Woah, you think you know more than they do? They knew their free agent signings were not going to be great! They're just warm bodies to occupy a roster spot until the kids that will make immediate elite impacts are ready!"

 

[Mr Nogatco]

The Petry thing, his dad works for the Tigers (who are owned by the Illitchs) His dad played for the Tigers way back in the day, there's a long family association with the Wings ownership and the Detroit area.

If Maatta wasn't willing to sign a 1 yr deal (which would put him on the same time frame as what Gus is for exiting the org). Probably looked at who was gonna be ufa and who they had a shot at signing? No idea, but Yzerman has been really specific on signings that align with his timeline and when kids are expected to come up.

It's a good thing I don't consider most peoples opinions to be worth much. Copp is what he is, he was signed to be a center, to hopefully fill that 2nd line center role, and he wasn't great at it, none of us know if there were better/worse/any other options. We needed that slot filled and he's the one who signed a contract.

So many people rip on the wings without considering UFA signings are a two way street. Just because you want a specific player, it doesn't mean said player wants you. Comes across very juvenile in a "I can date who I want" when the reality is, your choice is limited by which of them wanting to date you.

Pro scouting is entirely dependant on the player wanting to play for you.

Plenty of teams dealing with those same limitations. If you can’t fill a position in free agency you do your best to make trades to fill out the roster that way. Put those 2nd and 3rd rounders to use.

Bottom line is their pro scouting has been incredibly uninspired.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Dude, you can NOT force someone to sign with you.

Yeah, nobody can blame FAs for wanting to avoid their careers getting lost in the Yzermess.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

Talbot and Mrazek are expiring UFAs next year 2026 but Cossa joining and rolling with 3 goalies would not surprise me.

Ah yes, I meant 2026. I'm apparently already living in the future.

 

[Czechboy]

Ah yes, I meant 2026. I'm apparently already living in the future.

Well? Are they a playoff team next year? Since you live in the future!

 

[bert]

"Just not enough of those."

I mean all of Seider/Raymond/Edvinsson are top 3 picks in their respective redrafts, Kasper looks Top 10 worthy, and ASP looks like he should've gone much higher... I dunno how you can expect much better out of a team with their top picks.

Well the difference in this case is Tampa hit on a bunch of picks out of their top 10's. I even said those were good picks... But the team is still stuck in mediocrity. there needs to be something that could improve where they are... Or this thread doesnt exist.