Detroit Redwings Downfall

[GMR]

Clearly the Detroit downfall (thread purpose) has a lot to do with Yzerman’s failure to build a roster that puts players into the best position for them to succeed. Seider is an ideal #2 D man. The club obviously struggles with him playing the 1 role. Imagine Quinn Hughes on the Wings (whom they could have drafted) playing the #1 with Seider as the #2.

You can thank Ken Holland for that pick. Would have made Yzerman's job easier to have Hughes over Zadina.

Hopefully Edvinsson continues to improve and turn into a solid #1, which Chiarot is not.

 

[saska sault]

I don’t think Yzerman has done a great job but a lot of it is bad luck.

Also am I wrong or did Seider and Larkin not really improve much? They were pretty much good players right from the beginning leading people to think they might develop into elite players but they just stayed at the ‘good’ level. Lots of time left for Seider but I think Larkin is pretty much topped out.

Seider has improved, not if you only watch the stat sheet. Especially under McLellan he has really went back to his physical ways. He is breaking the puck out of the zone by himself more often, and like others mentioned... he has another level of offense he shows from time to time.

Larkin may be what he is, to better or lesser degrees some years but he should be a 70-90 point guy for the next 3-5 years. People can argue thats a solid #2 or a middle #1 as his peak or potential, I think he is perfectly fine as is... the main hope is that Kasper or Danielson become a similar level player. Personally I think Kasper has the potential to be better, he may produce the same points but he brings a different element of grit and net front type play.

 

[deca guard]

concerning hronek :
obviously yzerman didnt see him as a long term fit as obviously he prefers big bodied long reached dmen that control territory . and the other factor is by trading hronek for futures yzerman prevented detroit from being just good enough to make playoffs but not win cup , making playoffs at the serious cost of lessening his draft position which is of SUPREME IMPORTANCE in building a dynasty ! if kept hronek big deal detroit might have got in the past few years just to get crushed . by moving him record was lessened enabling detroit to draft danielsson whom might become a very important top 6 long term player . then last year by missing playoffs they just missed buium by 3 spots , buium whom might become an nhl allstar . same goes for this draft , if detroit misses playoffs it increases chances of drafting a very important long term player . where as if detroit would have signed better ufa players there was no chance of drafting a possible star in buium . mean while yzerman drafted ''pelli'' with the draft pick for hronek ! so yzermans hronek strategy might have ended up getting him danielsson/buium/pelli/unknown 2025 1st . and if he'd signed better ufa he might have ended up with a way lesser batch of prospects . people see yzerman pix of seider/raymond/edvinsson/kasper/cossa/augustine/plante/finnie/bushelnikov/pelli/lombardi/mazur and are still dense enough to criticize yzerman ??????????????? LMAO

 

[Czechboy]

Seider has improved, not if you only watch the stat sheet. Especially under McLellan he has really went back to his physical ways. He is breaking the puck out of the zone by himself more often, and like others mentioned... he has another level of offense he shows from time to time.

Larkin may be what he is, to better or lesser degrees some years but he should be a 70-90 point guy for the next 3-5 years. People can argue thats a solid #2 or a middle #1 as his peak or potential, I think he is perfectly fine as is... the main hope is that Kasper or Danielson become a similar level player. Personally I think Kasper has the potential to be better, he may produce the same points but he brings a different element of grit and net front type play.

I'm very high on Seider. Would kill for him on my Oilers or Czech National teams. His calling card seems to be his defense and presence though. His offence is not that impressive. It is very clear on this thread that Hronek and Walman are not liked and considered cancers and bad players. They've all played a different amount of games so I sorted it by .ppg to just look at their offence. Seider is 25 minutes a night which is near the top of the league. His deployment is very difficult as well.

Seider is in good offensive company but he's far from elite company offensively at scoring and probably won't be in a Norris conversation till that trends up. Which it might as he's only 23.

 

[saska sault]

I'm very high on Seider. Would kill for him on my Oilers or Czech National teams. His calling card seems to be his defense and presence though. His offence is not that impressive. It is very clear on this thread that Hronek and Walman are not liked and considered cancers and bad players. They've all played a different amount of games so I sorted it by .ppg to just look at their offence. Seider is 25 minutes a night which is near the top of the league. His deployment is very difficult as well.

View attachment 996070

Seider is in good offensive company but he's far from elite company offensively at scoring and probably won't be in a Norris conversation till that trends up. Which it might as he's only 23.

Its hard to soar like an eagle when your surrounded by turkeys.

 

[SirKillalot]

Clearly the Detroit downfall (thread purpose) has a lot to do with Yzerman’s failure to build a roster that puts players into the best position for them to succeed. Seider is an ideal #2 D man. The club obviously struggles with him playing the 1 role. Imagine Quinn Hughes on the Wings (whom they could have drafted) playing the #1 with Seider as the #2.

Seider is clearly a nr. 1 guy, but a young one that will keep improving.
He needs an equal player all round player with him, or a specialist player whether it be offensive defenseman or defensive defenseman.

Closest comparison would maybe be like Shea Weber for who he is, just not the same shot, and he need either a Ryan Suter or someone more special either way.

 

[SirloinUB]

I'm very high on Seider. Would kill for him on my Oilers or Czech National teams. His calling card seems to be his defense and presence though. His offence is not that impressive. It is very clear on this thread that Hronek and Walman are not liked and considered cancers and bad players. They've all played a different amount of games so I sorted it by .ppg to just look at their offence. Seider is 25 minutes a night which is near the top of the league. His deployment is very difficult as well.

View attachment 996070

Seider is in good offensive company but he's far from elite company offensively at scoring and probably won't be in a Norris conversation till that trends up. Which it might as he's only 23.

Moritz is 23rd in points by a dman since entering the league and plays better defence than at least a handful of those guys.

I don’t know if a Norris nomination is in his future but I’ll take a top 20 dman without thinking twice about it

 

[Czechboy]

Its hard to soar like an eagle when your surrounded by turkeys.

Who did Walman have in SJ?lol But I get your point.

 

[Czechboy]

plays better defence than at least a handful of those guys.

Which is exactly what I said. He definitely defends better than my fav D Bouch.lol Who will also never get a Norris nod.haha

 

[WarriorofTime]

Sounds like Yzerman needed to do a better job identifying a timeline. If they were still years away from playoffs, probably should have tanked it out for longer. If they were ready to win with Larkin's prime, probably should have made some more aggressive moves. Instead they kind of did a halfway approach where they've been shy of the playoffs but out of reach for the highest picks for multiple years.

 

[eojsmada]

Sounds like Yzerman needed to do a better job identifying a timeline. If they were still years away from playoffs, probably should have tanked it out for longer. If they were ready to win with Larkin's prime, probably should have made some more aggressive moves. Instead they kind of did a halfway approach where they've been shy of the playoffs but out of reach for the highest picks for multiple years.

To be fair...even when he did "tank" Detroit bad-lucked twice out of a top 3 pick.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

concerning hronek :
obviously yzerman didnt see him as a long term fit as obviously he prefers big bodied long reached dmen that control territory . and the other factor is by trading hronek for futures yzerman prevented detroit from being just good enough to make playoffs but not win cup , making playoffs at the serious cost of lessening his draft position which is of SUPREME IMPORTANCE in building a dynasty ! if kept hronek big deal detroit might have got in the past few years just to get crushed . by moving him record was lessened enabling detroit to draft danielsson whom might become a very important top 6 long term player . then last year by missing playoffs they just missed buium by 3 spots , buium whom might become an nhl allstar . same goes for this draft , if detroit misses playoffs it increases chances of drafting a very important long term player . where as if detroit would have signed better ufa players there was no chance of drafting a possible star in buium . mean while yzerman drafted ''pelli'' with the draft pick for hronek ! so yzermans hronek strategy might have ended up getting him danielsson/buium/pelli/unknown 2025 1st . and if he'd signed better ufa he might have ended up with a way lesser batch of prospects . people see yzerman pix of seider/raymond/edvinsson/kasper/cossa/augustine/plante/finnie/bushelnikov/pelli/lombardi/mazur and are still dense enough to criticize yzerman ??????????????? LMAO

Few things here - did you actually just say that Yzerman is building a "dynasty"? Are you high?

Also, have you not heard of the enter button on your computer/phone so that your ridiculous Yzerman bathwater drinking comments aren't all one giant paragraph?

 

[Dr Quincy]

No, many Wings fans last year thought this year would be a drop. We knew several vets who produced points would be departing, to be replaced with unknowns. Especially on defense with Walman and Gostisbehere being key scorers last year.

Funny, because I checked the pt prediction thread on the DET board. Yes a number of fans were upset with the offseason and didn't think the team would be improved. Very few were predicting them to be worse than last year. The majority thought the team would be better.

 

[Riseonfire]

Downfall......from the mid 00's?

I don't recall them being 'up' since.

 

[The Flying Octopus]

Few things here - did you actually just say that Yzerman is building a "dynasty"? Are you high?

Also, have you not heard of the enter button on your computer/phone so that your ridiculous Yzerman bathwater drinking comments aren't all one giant paragraph?

He actually is if you look at his draft history w the Wings. LOADED. There’s a reason why he didn’t make moves. He’s not getting rid of the next 2/3 years of what will be quality NHL players, mixed in with a ton of cap space. It’s taken 4-5 years to get rid of the poop, clear some contracts out, and have a serviceable vet presence, to help guide their prospects. Easy.

I’m taking receipts on all you people who think a rebuild will be short. He never mentioned that, in fact the opposite. Hes a three time cup champ as a player. I’ll take his word over roster construction than most.

 

[GMR]

Funny, because I checked the pt prediction thread on the DET board. Yes a number of fans were upset with the offseason and didn't think the team would be improved. Very few were predicting them to be worse than last year. The majority thought the team would be better.

Those prediction threads are places for fans to blow smoke before the season begins. I wouldn't put much stock into that. The Wings board has been criticizing Yzerman for some time. It's not everyone who's doing it, but let's just say he no longer has Vladimir Putin like approval numbers.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Funny, because I checked the pt prediction thread on the DET board. Yes a number of fans were upset with the offseason and didn't think the team would be improved. Very few were predicting them to be worse than last year. The majority thought the team would be better.

I just looked over that thread and counted ten thought we would be worse and ten thought we would be better.

I didn't count people who said 90-95 points, pick a lane.

 

[newfy]

Which team will they bump out of the playoffs next year?

People had been waiting for Boston to fall out for a while, but it looks like Ottawa is the team taking their spot.

Who will be the faller next year if you think Detroit is getting in?

I don't know that I would say Ottawa is permanently taking anyone's spot. They've been neck and neck with Detroit for years and Detroit still has way more help on the way while Ottawa doesn't. The Lightning aren't young, Toronto might be losing Marner, etc. The Atlantic might not be wide open but you also have other teams in the east like the caps who might lose Ovechkin, the Rangers are in a weird spot and others. That will make wild card races easier as well.

You don't see a world where Detroit adds say Danielson, Sandin Pelikka and Cossa and they overtake any of these teams?

 

[HabsMD97]

Oh, well, since we are using random facts about last 10 years playoff winners as the predictor of future success, we are doomed anyway. Since Detroit isn't among last 10 years' Cup winners, we really do not have any hope for the future, do we. But you know what? Those impossible odds be damned. We may go down, but I say we go down swingin'. And, have some fun along the way.

it's not random, it's been the case for the past 25 years. Crosby is the only #1C to win it past 28 and he did at at 29.

 

[deca guard]

Few things here - did you actually just say that Yzerman is building a "dynasty"? Are you high?

Also, have you not heard of the enter button on your computer/phone so that your ridiculous Yzerman bathwater drinking comments aren't all one giant paragraph?

right off the bat you know that its not somebody worth confering with when they criticize your way of expressing yourself via the written word on a hockey forum

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

right off the bat you know that its not somebody worth confering with when they criticize your way of expressing yourself via the written word on a hockey forum

Your way of expressing yourself via the written word reads like a 5th grader in a special needs program.

Oh, and still waiting on what on earth makes you think a bunch of mid-prospects somehow equals a future "dynasty" other than "trust me bro".

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

He actually is if you look at his draft history w the Wings. LOADED. There’s a reason why he didn’t make moves. He’s not getting rid of the next 2/3 years of what will be quality NHL players, mixed in with a ton of cap space. It’s taken 4-5 years to get rid of the poop, clear some contracts out, and have a serviceable vet presence, to help guide their prospects. Easy.

His "serviceable vets" have been mostly anything but serviceable, and were signed to ridiculous Ken Holland-style contracts.

I’m taking receipts on all you people who think a rebuild will be short. He never mentioned that, in fact the opposite. Hes a three time cup champ as a player.

Who said the rebuild needed to be short? The first few years were going to be rough, and they were. He was hired in April of 2019...we're now in late March of 2025.

It doesn't take 6 years for a proper rebuild to yield a single playoff appearance if done correctly. Again, a playoff spot by the end of year 6 should be the absolute minimum expectation, regardless of the situation he came into.

Every new GM comes into a bad situation. That's not an excuse to still be a middling team with no direction heading into year 7.

"But they've gotten better each year!" Sure, if you don't count this season. And there also comes a certain point when "incremental improvement" isn't good enough anymore.

Yes, his 1st round draft picks have been good. His free agent signings have almost all been terrible, and he made a horrible decision in hiring his 1st head coach (and waited far too long to make a switch).

I’ll take his word over roster construction than most.

I'll take his actual results on roster construction (particularly on the blue line, which is laughably bad.)

The results have been, at best, severely underwhelming.

 

[Oilhawks]

tHe YzErPlAn

 

[Beninnola]

I think Detroit is building for about 3 years from now.

They reset their team a bit when they selected to move Hronek for only picks. That’s a fairly steep pull back on the team building throttle and freed the development time for Seider.

Now Edvinsson is getting the amount of time he needs. You’d guess time would also be spend with asp.

When young players are in such key roles - tough minutes above 20 a game: the nhl season itself is a grind and they’re facing folks who have been in a pro workout regime nonstop for a decade. It takes a handful of years until the consistency can push through. It’s just really difficult for young players to be both great and consistent because of the physical difference in mature opposition and the physical toll an nhl season takes.

In 3 years you’ll have Seider at 26/27, Edvinsson and Raymond at 25, Kasper and asp at 23. I think this is a good time to see some consistent domination out of the group, increasing in years beyond. If you’re fortunate with the surrounding cast you could certainly do it quicker.

The ages of the guys in the roles that are taking huge chunks of the icetime are a good way to evaluate the ebb and flow of a big team. If your team is giving 20 min + a night and top pairings to 2 dudes 23 or under then you’re building up to something. It isn’t a failure of management - the players are getting the time they need to grow.

 

[jcs0218]

Detroit has never been the same ever since Mike Babcock chose the Toronto Maple Leafs over the Detroit Red Wings.

Kind of like how the Red Sox had "The Curse of the Bambino" when Ruth left to the Yankees, the Red Wings have had "The Curse of the Babcock".

Mike Babcock always bets on Mike Babcock, and he has managed to win this bet!