Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Golden_Jet]

When Gabe Landeskog was 2 years older than Lucas Raymond currently is the Avs finished dead last in the league, 21 points behind the 2nd worst team and they already had a guy named Nathan Mackinnon.

Thanks I guess, not sure why you quoted me, as has no relevance to resetting the rebuild time frame with a new GM. ( other teams don’t do that.)

 

[SirloinUB]

Thanks I guess, not sure why you quoted me, as has no relevance to resetting the rebuild time frame with a new GM. ( other teams don’t do that.)

Just reiterating that the expected timelines attached to Yzerman are absurd.

Either way its moreso about recognizing that Holland's attempt at rebuilding was an utter failure. The best piece acquired at the start of the rebuild was Michael Rasmussen and his career high 33 points. Seems crazy to hold that against Yzerman.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Just reiterating that the expected timelines attached to Yzerman are absurd.

Ya because you reset the timelines like I already pointed out.
Which other teams in the league say there rebuild timelines start over, when hiring a new GM. I can’t think of any teams.

 

[SirloinUB]

Ya because you reset the timelines like I already pointed out.
Which other teams in the league say there rebuild timelines start over, when hiring a new GM. I can’t think of any teams.

So you want to fault yzerman for Ken Holland's mistakes of drafting Rasmussen over Necas, Zadina over Hughes/Bouchard/Dobson, Cholowski over Tage etc?

 

[Golden_Jet]

So you want to fault yzerman for drafting Rasmussen over Necas, or giving out absurd contracts to Nielsen and Abdelkader?

Struggling with concept lol,
And btw you didn’t answer the question, which teams reset their timelines with a new GM, none of you don’t feel like answering.

 

[SirloinUB]

Struggling with concept lol,
And btw you didn’t answer the question, which teams reset their timelines with a new GM, none of you don’t feel like answering.

Nobody is resetting anything, you're just blabbing on about random and arbitrary timelines.

Yes, the Red Wings started rebuilding before yzerman got to detroit. The Red Wings also accomplished next to nothing in the rebuild before Yzerman arrived. It sucks for Red Wings fans but it's irrelevant to evaluating Yzerman's work.

 

[norrisnick]

Ya I don’t see other teams resetting their rebuild cycle to the hiring of a new GM.
Buffalo never did that, and they’ve had a few GM’s , Ottawa is not saying their rebuild started last year.

Didn't they say it was finished last year?

 

[HabzSauce]

View attachment 947467

Did anything come out of those dead years tho before 2012?

Feels like the real rebuild started after 2013 collapse. They just drafted Reilly, then got marner, Nylander & Matthews. Then poof rebuild was done lol

 

[norrisnick]

Did anything come out of those dead years tho before 2012?

Feels like the real rebuild started after 2013 collapse. They just drafted Reilly, then got marner, Nylander & Matthews. Then poof rebuild was done lol

Is it?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Didn't they say it was finished last year?

No that was the previous idiot GM, It was a dumb thing to say, and everyone called him out for it.
So he backtracked that later, saying what I meant was…..,
Why aren’t you calling out your fans, for resetting the rebuild timeline.

 

[Just Linda]

If the Wings players had turned into what I hoped they'd be, the rebuild still wouldn't have been enough at this point. But at the end of the day... they really didn't turn out as I expected them to.

I watch them play this year and I'm realizing that they aren't the players I hoped they will be, a lot of goodness but no greatness. I really thought Larkin would be in the 7-10 range of centres in the league, he just never developed into a top 10 centre and really seems to lack to the high end skill to get there. Seider has time still but I honestly thought he'd be a top 5 dman in the league, he'll be a number 1 dman for his career but not to the same level as what most contenders had. Raymond is really good though, I think he's got another gear in him and can be among the wingers a contender needs.

Detroit needs someone better than Larkin leading them, you can't win with Larkin as your top centre. Seider might be the man but he needs a lot better support than he's got.

Im willing to say that I think their rebuild failed just because they couldn't get good enough players.

 

[HabzSauce]

Is it?

Of course the rebuild is done. They've been 100+ point team basically since 2017-2018

 

[Ulysses31]

aint no yzerman not gonna improve no red wings

 

[SirloinUB]

You know you're biased when you try to hold years yzerman wasn't with the red wings against him

 

[norrisnick]

No that was the previous idiot GM, It was a dumb thing to say, and everyone called him out for it.
So he backtracked that later, saying what I meant was…..,
Why aren’t you calling out your fans, for resetting the rebuild timeline.

Because it doesn't matter?

Of course the rebuild is done. They've been 100+ point team basically since 2017-2018

If the expected goal for the Leafs is to be a chaperone to the 2nd round... Mission Accomplished, I guess...

 

[WarriorofTime]

Nobody is resetting anything, you're just blabbing on about random and arbitrary timelines.

Yes, the Red Wings started rebuilding before yzerman got to detroit. The Red Wings also accomplished next to nothing in the rebuild before Yzerman arrived. It sucks for Red Wings fans but it's irrelevant to evaluating Yzerman's work.

The relevance is Detroit has been rebuilding for about 9 years, 2/3 of which Yzerman has been the GM.

 

[SirloinUB]

The relevance is Detroit has been rebuilding for about 9 years, 2/3 of which Yzerman has been the GM.

If we are calling the 3 seasons before Yzermand became the gm "relevent" I would point out how much they set the franchise back. For example, they are dealing with the fallout of the below moves (among others):

• drafting Rasmussen over Necas,
• Zadina over Hughes/Bouchard/Dobson,
• Cholowski over Tage
• Instead of drafting Chychrun, they traded back a few spots.
• Signed Abdelkader to a 7 year contract
• Signed Nielsen to a 6 year contract.

So cool, I guess the rebuild started 9 years ago. The first 3 years under Holland went horribly, which in reality, creates a bigger mess for yzerman to work through.

Imagine how great yzerman would look if Holland would have drafted Necas, Hughes and Tage. Similarly, I wish I was buying real estate and Apple stock when I was 9.

 

[Bank Shot]

Why are you suggesting Yzerman should be held accountable for what happened before he was the GM?

Bill Zito had a franchise caliber player in Barkov and to a lesser extent Ekblad already in place. Yzerman wasn't so fortunate.


Moreover my point, is that in most cases its going to take at least 6 to 7 years (and often longer) after landing foundational pieces to win.

Yzerman has pieces believed to be foundational in Seider Ed and Ray who are 2-4 seasons removed from their draft. Expecting these dudes to be competing for cups 2-4 years after their draft when it took Mackinnon, Kuch, and Barkov 8, 7 and 11 years respectively is an absurd standard to hold Yzerman and his top young pieces to.

Despite this abursd standard, up to this point, Yzerman's team has been better every single season.

Yes this year appears to be a setback but rebuilding is NEVER linear.

I repeat, patience is still the best path for the Red Wings rebuild.

Last year was the big "improvement" by Yzerman's team. This year shows what the math was saying was correct. They were a team that was benefiting from lucky shooting percentage, and were in fact not that good at all.

Yzerman was billed as "the best GM" in hockey. He's had 6 years and his team is still bottom ten bad.

If he is going to need 8-10 years to make the playoffs, then I guess he's not really close to being the best after all.

How many more years are you willing to give the Yzerplan without results? 5? 6? Another decade?

 

[SirloinUB]

Last year was the big "improvement" by Yzerman's team. This year shows what the math was saying was correct. They were a team that was benefiting from lucky shooting percentage, and were in fact not that good at all.

Yzerman was billed as "the best GM" in hockey. He's had 6 years and his team is still bottom ten bad.

If he is going to need 8-10 years to make the playoffs, then I guess he's not really close to being the best after all.

How many more years are you willing to give the Yzerplan without results? 5? 6? Another decade?

Detroit was pretty good and tied for the the last playoff spot. That was improvement from the previous season. Up to this point Yzerman's team has gotten better each and every season. This year is the first sign of a set back under his leadership.

Still, his body of work in Detroit has been good. Does that make him the best GM? That's not something I have said, nor would I argue for.

On the other hand, what I have said is that within 5 years he:

• Drafted and locked up a 1st pair Dman in Seider
• Drafted and locked up a star/1st line forward in Raymond
• Drafted what is looking like another 1st pair dman in Edvinsson,
• Drafted what is looking like a good middle 6, possibly 2nd line center in Kasper
• Acquired a 30 goal scorer in Debrincat
• Locked up the captain long term
• built a deep and quality prospect pool that should be bringing more help to the team over the next couple of years.

On the flip:

• Walman trade was bad
• Signed a few mediocre FAs in Copp, Holl, Chairot (Granted the team was below the cap floor and had to spend 12M on somebody)
• Took a swing on Vrana that didnt work out
• He's shown extreme patience with his coaching (I'm not sure canning Blashill sooner mattered in anyway) and prospect development

UFA acquisition and pro scouting have been a point of weakness but he has made some good UFA acquisitions as well in Ghostisbhere, Sprong Lyon and Talbot. He's drafted well and stock piled a lot of young pieces.

Overall his good moves outweigh his bad ones both in quantity and overall impact ie. Drafting and locking up Raymond is of much greater impact than signing Copp; drafting and signing Seider is of much greater impact than signing Chairot for 4 years while the team is still in a rebuild phase.

Yzerman has made mistakes and he will make more. With that said, his impact on this organization has still been net positive so he still has at least another year or two of runway in my books. If a couple guys like Danielson and ASP workout, that means he has earned even more runway.

 

[norrisnick]

Last year was the big "improvement" by Yzerman's team. This year shows what the math was saying was correct. They were a team that was benefiting from lucky shooting percentage, and were in fact not that good at all.

Yzerman was billed as "the best GM" in hockey. He's had 6 years and his team is still bottom ten bad.

If he is going to need 8-10 years to make the playoffs, then I guess he's not really close to being the best after all.

How many more years are you willing to give the Yzerplan without results? 5? 6? Another decade?

Maybe, when people start talking about something or someone being "the best" especially in a field where it is impossible to quantify who or what is the best, just ignore them because more often than not they are wrong. Like... most of this thread is riddled with posters responding to ignored users. Just ignore them and move on.

Detroit was pretty good and tied for the the last playoff spot. That was improvement from the previous season. Up to this point Yzerman's team has gotten better each and every season. This year is the first sign of a set back under his leadership.

Still, his body of work in Detroit has been good. Does that make him the best GM? That's not something I have said, nor would I argue for.

On the other hand, what I have said is that within 5 years he:

• Drafted and locked up a 1st pair Dman in Seider
• Drafted and locked up a star/1st line forward in Raymond
• Drafted what is looking like another 1st pair dman in Edvinsson,
• Drafted what is looking like a good middle 6, possibly 2nd line center in Kasper
• Acquired a 30 goal scorer in Debrincat
• Locked up the captain long term
• built a deep and quality prospect pool that should be bringing more help to the team over the next couple of years.

On the flip:

• Walman trade was bad
• Signed a few mediocre FAs in Copp, Holl, Chairot (Granted the team was below the cap floor and had to spend 12M on somebody)
• Took a swing on Vrana that didnt work out
• He's shown extreme patience with his coaching (I'm not sure canning Blashill sooner matter in anyway) and prospect development

UFA acquisition and pro scouting have been a point of weakness but he has made some good UFA acquisitions as well in Ghostisbhere, Sprong Lyon and Talbot.

Overall his good moves outweigh his bad ones both in quantity and overall impact ie. Drafting and locking up Raymond is of much greater impact than signing Copp; drafting and signing Seider is of much greater impact than signing Chairot for 4 years while the team is still in a rebuild phase.

Yzerman has made mistakes and he will make more. With that said, his impact on this organization has still been net positive so he still has at least another year or two of runway in my books. If a couple guys like Danielson and ASP workout, that means he has earned even more runway.

And all of that aside, changing GMs now will not speed up the process, so it doesn't make any sense to do so. A rebuild is not something you can speed up at will. It takes as long as it takes prospects to develop. Teams aren't just going to give you franchise altering players, unless they're dumb or forced to because said player wants out AND wants to join your team.

 

[Bank Shot]

Detroit was pretty good and tied for the the last playoff spot. That was improvement from the previous season. Up to this point Yzerman's team has gotten better each and every season. This year is the first sign of a set back under his leadership.

Still, his body of work in Detroit has been good. Does that make him the best GM? That's not something I have said, nor would I argue for.

On the other hand, what I have said is that within 5 years he:

• Drafted and locked up a 1st pair Dman in Seider
• Drafted and locked up a star/1st line forward in Raymond
• Drafted what is looking like another 1st pair dman in Edvinsson,
• Drafted what is looking like a good middle 6, possibly 2nd line center in Kasper
• Acquired a 30 goal scorer in Debrincat
• Locked up the captain long term
• built a deep and quality prospect pool that should be bringing more help to the team over the next couple of years.

On the flip:

• Walman trade was bad
• Signed a few mediocre FAs in Copp, Holl, Chairot (Granted the team was below the cap floor and had to spend 12M on somebody)
• Took a swing on Vrana that didnt work out
• He's shown extreme patience with his coaching (I'm not sure canning Blashill sooner mattered in anyway) and prospect development

Yzerman's body of work besides sit on his thumbs and draft is pretty sparse for 6 seasons no?

-Acquired a 30 goal scorer in Debrincat

That's it.

The team they are playing today in St.Louis did more in just this offseason acquiring Holloway and Broberg for a 2nd and a 3rd.

Fans are talking about the bad depth. A top tier GM maybe would have successfully identified and acquired a young core piece from another team in 6 years on the job. A good GM could probably find a few nice depth pieces in 6 years.

 

[Dotter]

Ottawa had 6 players on the ice last night from 2020 draft.

Bottom feeding team icing uninspiring prospects... and lose. SHOCKING!

More at 11

 

[TheOrganist]

As a fan of a Western team that rarely watches Detroit and whose middling team embarrassed the Wings tonight…it’s worse than I thought.

 

[Dotter]

When Gabe Landeskog was 2 years older than Lucas Raymond currently is, the Avs finished dead last in the league, 21 points behind the 2nd worst team and they already had a guy named Nathan Mackinnon on the team.

Careful. Logic doesn't go over too well in here.

See, people don't want to hear real cold facts. All they want to hear is their opinion coming out of your mouth (or keyboard). That is why they're in this thread posting about a team they know nothing about.

The usual suspects have already been exposed.

 

[LevelingSolo]

I don't think they've looked this bad since the 19-20 obvious tank season