Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Fatass]

It's a poor opinion considering he's readily handling 1st pairing assignments now.

And how is the club doing? It’s relative. On good teams there are clear number one D. Teams that don’t have a number one guy will struggle because they play guys in roles they’re not able to be successful in. All teams have guys playing minutes they really aren’t able to, but when it’s a top pairing D, those clubs will struggle.,
Imo Yzerman needs to find a 1D and a 1C. Then the other guys fall into better roles. And the team does better.,

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

And how is the club doing? It’s relative. On good teams there are clear number one D. Teams that don’t have a number one guy will struggle because they play guys in roles they’re not able to be successful in. All teams have guys playing minutes they really aren’t able to, but when it’s a top pairing D, those clubs will struggle.,
Imo Yzerman needs to find a 1D and a 1C. Then the other guys fall into better roles. And the team does better.,

At some point you can accept that there can be great players on a bad team and the team will still be bad.

Citing Detroit's place in the standings as evidence that one player is in over his head just confirmed my belief that you don't actually watch. Thank you.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And how is the club doing? It’s relative.

Awful argument considering the top pair actually does their job great. Detroit just might have the league’s worst second pair.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Awful argument considering the top pair actually does their job great. Detroit just might have the league’s worst second pair.

He exposed himself as a stat watcher. Pretty dumb to do considering all you had to do was look at team stats and see Edvinsson leads the team in +/- despite being on the top pairing with the toughest assignments.

But hey, one day he may grow up and eventually be a decent 2nd pairing guy.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yup, Larkin is a tenacious two way centerman and leader at the peak of his prime. Stutzle will get there someday.

lol, you haven’t seen Stutzle this year then, backchecking presence and more physical.

Larkin isn’t definitely behind Tim this year,

 

[TKB]

It’s an opinion. Imo Edvinson will develop into a solid second pairing guy on a winning team. Guys play higher in the lineup than they should on clubs that aren’t good. That doesn’t make them that level of player. With both Seider and Edvinson (imo) they are playing roles above what they are capable of. They both still have runways of development left. And I believe they will be good. Just in the appropriate roles. Seider will be a good #2. Edvinson will grow into a good 3/4. Neither, right now should be carrying a top pairing. It’s an opinion.

I think you are severely underestimating both Seider and Edvinsson's performance.

I would bet that a significant majority of those who have watched them play or played against them with any regularity will say the same.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Detroit just might have the league’s worst second pair.

Sixth season on the job, traded away Hronek and Walman, this might be the most damning indication of Yzerman of them all, especially since it's not like they're tanking.

 

[nbwingsfan]

When Yzerman took over the team had just finished with 74 points. 5.5 years later they are on pace for 78 points, unless he has an absolute gem come in next year and they make the playoffs, that should be it for him. 7 years with little to no progress in terms of contention is not a good result, not that I care either way, but I would want him gone at that point.

Purposely left out last season where they had 91pte and missed the post season by 1pt

I wonder why?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Maybe the Yzerman draft years were just oddly weak where he was drafting? Still no star player to lead the club. No true difference maker. No number one centre to push Larkin to the 2C role, where he is best suited. No number one D. No great goalie. Lots of good younger player. But missing those special guys who make the difference. So, as you point out, not bad drafting; just weak draft classes.

Please point to me all of the teams who have a better or equal 2c than Larkin?

 

[LarKing]

It’s an opinion. Imo Edvinson will develop into a solid second pairing guy on a winning team. Guys play higher in the lineup than they should on clubs that aren’t good. That doesn’t make them that level of player. With both Seider and Edvinson (imo) they are playing roles above what they are capable of. They both still have runways of development left. And I believe they will be good. Just in the appropriate roles. Seider will be a good #2. Edvinson will grow into a good 3/4. Neither, right now should be carrying a top pairing. It’s an opinion.

It's a pretty wild take considering how well our top pairing is doing and I would expect Edvinsson to continue to improve. There's a lot of things on the Wings roster to hate, but their top pairing really isn't one of them.

 

[Fatass]

Please point to me all of the teams who have a better or equal 2c than Larkin?

How about list the 1C’s Larkin is better than? IMO Larkin would be a great 2C.

 

[TKB]

Sixth season on the job, traded away Hronek and Walman, this might be the most damning indication of Yzerman of them all, especially since it's not like they're tanking.

Trading a 25* (edit: not 27 as i said) year old Hronek who was not going to get the type of contract he was looking for in Detroit, yielded ASP. So damning.


The Walman deal is a puzzle, but here is what we know for sure:

• Jake Walman was a healthy scratch for the Wings the last ten or so games of the season in the midst of a playoff race when his team needed him the most.
• Jake Walman is not playing for a team that is a threat to the Red Wings for the foreseeable future.
• The deal deal includes future considerations which could be - SJ takes another contract if needed (another trade is completed), SJ agrees not to trade to certain team(s), maybe it is for a roll of tape....who knows.
• Jake Walman has already been a healthy scratch for SJ this season.
• SY was criticized heavily after dumping Jakub Vrana to St. Louis. Vrana promptly went on a heater, but in the long run SY was vindicated.

If these trades are the "most damning indication of Yzerman of them all"....The Red Wings will be in pretty good shape.

 

[RedHawkDown]

How about list the 1C’s Larkin is better than? IMO Larkin would be a great 2C.

Better:
Zacha
Thompson (other than his 1 outlier year)
Chytil/Zib
Couturier
Horvat
ROR
Hayton/Cooley
McTavish/Carlsson
Zary/Backlund

On par:
Suzuki
Hintz
Eriksson-Ek
Thomas
Scheifele

He's a middle of the road 1C. Most of the league has middle of the road 1Cs. There are only a few teams with the superstar 1Cs you mention.

NYR, Dallas, Minnesota, WPG are all very good teams with 1Cs that arent much better (if at all) than Larkin. There is more than one way to build a contender. Larkin won't be the issue in Detroit if that fails to happen - it will be failing to surround him with equivalent talent.

Whether Yzerman can do that remains to be seen. We'll have to see how the kids develop. So far s ogood.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Trading a 27 year old Hronek who was not going to get the type of contract he was looking for in Detroit, yielded ASP. So damning.


The Walman deal is a puzzle, but here is what we know for sure:

• Jake Walman was a healthy scratch for the Wings the last ten or so games of the season in the midst of a playoff race when his team needed him the most.
• Jake Walman is not playing for a team that is a threat to the Red Wings for the foreseeable future.
• The deal deal includes future considerations which could be - SJ takes another contract if needed (another trade is completed), SJ agrees not to trade to certain team(s), maybe it is for a roll of tape....who knows.
• Jake Walman has already been a healthy scratch for SJ this season.
• SY was criticized heavily after dumping Jakub Vrana to St. Louis. Vrana promptly went on a heater, but in the long run SY was vindicated.

If these trades are the "most damning indication of Yzerman of them all"....The Red Wings will be in pretty good shape.

The most damning was the worst second pair in the league line, not to a particular move in a vacuum although it’s puzzling a couple of good D were traded for a mid first and a second out the door with them at a time they were exiting the tank.

 

[Fatass]

Trading a 27 year old Hronek who was not going to get the type of contract he was looking for in Detroit, yielded ASP. So damning.


The Walman deal is a puzzle, but here is what we know for sure:

• Jake Walman was a healthy scratch for the Wings the last ten or so games of the season in the midst of a playoff race when his team needed him the most.
• Jake Walman is not playing for a team that is a threat to the Red Wings for the foreseeable future.
• The deal deal includes future considerations which could be - SJ takes another contract if needed (another trade is completed), SJ agrees not to trade to certain team(s), maybe it is for a roll of tape....who knows.
• Jake Walman has already been a healthy scratch for SJ this season.
• SY was criticized heavily after dumping Jakub Vrana to St. Louis. Vrana promptly went on a heater, but in the long run SY was vindicated.

If these trades are the "most damning indication of Yzerman of them all"....The Red Wings will be in pretty good shape.

Hronek was 25 when traded.

 

[TKB]

Hronek was 25 when traded.

Correct, my bad. The main point is they likely has ASP targeted. They weren't going to give Hronek the type of contract he was said to be looking for( and got from Vancouver). ASP, age fits much better with the long term plan, the only key "old timers" are Larkin and ADB.

Hronek to Vancouver turned out to be a great trade for both sides.

 

[Fatass]

Better:
Zacha
Thompson (other than his 1 outlier year)
Chytil/Zib
Couturier
Horvat
ROR
Hayton/Cooley
McTavish/Carlsson
Zary/Backlund

On par:
Suzuki
Hintz
Eriksson-Ek
Thomas
Scheifele

He's a middle of the road 1C. Most of the league has middle of the road 1Cs. There are only a few teams with the superstar 1Cs you mention.

NYR, Dallas, Minnesota, WPG are all very good teams with 1Cs that arent much better (if at all) than Larkin. There is more than one way to build a contender. Larkin won't be the issue in Detroit if that fails to happen - it will be failing to surround him with equivalent talent.

Whether Yzerman can do that remains to be seen. We'll have to see how the kids develop. So far s ogood.

Not that I agree with all the guys on your lists, but that is exactly why Larkin would be ideal as a 2C. On a winning team he’s their 2C.

 

[nbwingsfan]

How about list the 1C’s Larkin is better than? IMO Larkin would be a great 2C.

Larkin as a 2C wouldn’t just be great, it would be a luxury almost no teams in the NHL currently have.

 

[Fatass]

Correct, my bad. The main point is they likely has ASP targeted. They weren't going to give Hronek the type of contract he was said to be looking for( and got from Vancouver). ASP, age fits much better with the long term plan, the only key "old timers" are Larkin and ADB.

Hronek to Vancouver turned out to be a great trade for both sides.

Imo Yzerman, and rightly so, believed the islander’s girst (Allvin was dangling) was looking like it was going to roll over to the following year and be “unprotected”. That’s the value he was hoping for when he moved Hronek. Yzermsn took a gamble. It might still work out (with ASP) but imo he was looking to the next year’s draft for that pick to be top 10.

 

[Oddbob]

Laugh all you want but Nick Leddy has been very good on a top pairing with Parayko that has seen extremely difficult deployment. You won’t find many Blues fans who aren’t perfectly happy with that trade right now, even if there were a lot who disliked it at the time.


FWIW I thought it was a good trade for Detroit at the time. Happy with how things have worked out for the Blues tho.

I agree it was, but everything we got is gone minus a low end prospect.

 

[TKB]

The most damning was the worst second pair in the league line, not to a particular move in a vacuum although it’s puzzling a couple of good D were traded for a mid first and a second out the door with them at a time they were exiting the tank.

And now you are back to cherrypicking when you don't also acknowledge the success of Seider/Edvinsson.

SY cutting bait on Walman is evidence that you and some others refuse to see that he is more worried about the big picture than year six.

Before you come back with something about not trying to tank/middling, please remember that our 3 most important prospects right now were drafted 9th, 15th, and 17th.

 

[Dotter]

lol, you haven’t seen Stutzle this year then, backchecking presence and more physical.

Larkin isn’t definitely behind Tim this year,

Your opinion seems biased. I didn't write the NHL.com rankings, nor do I think the NHL.com staff that ranked each player are DRWs fans.

I promise you I watch Stutzle more than any poster spewing nonsense in this thread watch Yzerman and the Wings, or follow DRWs prospect pool.

That being said, what would it take to pry Nick Jensen away so he can come back to Detroit? We can offer you a better goalie than Ullmark.

 

[WarriorofTime]

And now you are back to cherrypicking when you don't also acknowledge the success of Seider/Edvinsson.

cherrypicking what? Pavels Dog said worst 2nd pair in league

SY cutting bait on Walman is evidence that you and some others refuse to see that he is more worried about the big picture than year six.

sure, 4D chess move, uh huh.

Before you come back with something about not trying to tank/middling, please remember that our 3 most important prospects right now were drafted 9th, 15th, and 17th.

No idea what you expect anyone to do with that information

 

[Dotter]

How about list the 1C’s Larkin is better than? IMO Larkin would be a great 2C.

If Larkin is a 2C, then that means Wings have a generational #1 center and they'd be coming for the cup. That would be one hell of a 1-2 punch down the middle!

 

[Pavels Dog]

The most damning was the worst second pair in the league line, not to a particular move in a vacuum although it’s puzzling a couple of good D were traded for a mid first and a second out the door with them at a time they were exiting the tank.

I think most levelheaded Wings fans would agree that the state of the 2nd pairing is one of if not the biggest failure this season. However you kind of muddle the waters with your argument by insisting on harping on Hronek/Walman. The Hronek move especially was a calculated gamble of a type that nearly every Yzerman-critic seem to be insisting he do; moving out "mid" talent in order to acquire potential high-end/elite talent. It was a move done with clear eyes.