Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Hockeyfan2390]

What part of Yzerman saying that he wasn't looking to simply make the playoffs wasn't clear to you? (But you have a solid grip on how they operate, right?)



It was painfully obvious to everyone (Except you and your solid grip, apparently) that Bert was looking for a lengthy deal and wasn't getting it from Yzerman. That trade came as a surprise to nobody. The Hronek one did.



So again, your surprise that he hasn't been fired, since you apparently have a "Solid grip on how they operate", is weird.

It really would have been easier for you to just admit that you blindly trust him because you still can’t differentiate between Yzerman the legendary Hall of Fame captain and Yzerman the underperforming, underdelivering GM, and you’d still happily be bleating “trust the Yzerplan!!” if they still weren’t a playoff team by 2026.

Like I said, that’s your right. But for the rest of us who live in the present and have standards, it’s not good enough anymore.

 

[Pavels Dog]

What a huge win for the Wings.

- Simon Edvinsson 1+1, +2, continues to be a monster. On pace for 40 points without PP time.
- Seider 1+1, +3, another masterclass
- Dylan Larkin, on pace for 47 goals
- Lucas Raymond, goals in 3 straight after a slow scoring start
- Albert Johansson, 1st career point
- Lyon, .931

 

[Pavels Dog]

they used Holtz and Mukhamadullin to get Cotter and Meier as well, so they still wound up with a good amount of assets as a result (again, the benefit of being an active GM).

Yzerman traded Sebrango (3rd round 2020) as one of the main pieces to acquire Debrincat.

I give Yzerman full credits for two great picks in Raymond and Seider (particularly for Seider; Raymond was kind of an obvious pick).

No, Raymond wasn't an "obvious" pick. There was lots of debate after the top 3 in the 2020. For example Bob Mackenzie (one of the best out there) had Raymond at 6 in his final rankings. Holtz, Drysdale, Perfetti and Rossi were just a few of the candidates at that spot.

I just don't think you can ignore this if you're honestly evaluating Yzerman's drafting so far; getting something out of rounds 2-7 is a big part of being good at the draft.

Both Johansson and Söderblom are very likely to have NHL careers to some extent. Some outside chance Carter Gylander (7th round 2019) turns into an NHL goalie.
Wallinder from 2020 will play in the NHL, guaranteed. Hanas has a chance.
It's not a haul, but it's definitely something.

Honestly It's not a big deal; plus, Detroit's later drafts look a bit better in that regard (though we won't truly know until they start making the NHL). I just don't understand why that other poster is so unshakably confident that Yzerman's scouting genius will single-handedly carry Detroit through a rebuild. I don't think the available data supports that conclusion.

One reason for confidence is that the 1st round picks are probably ~80-90% of the Draft's importance. Your focus on depth picks is misguided because that's not an area of the draft you should rely on to build your roster.
As of right now, not a single one of Yzerman's 8 first round picks looks bad or disappointing.

 

[Pavels Dog]

If they do end up picking between 8th and 15th, then a very real question should be "well then why the heck were they only picking 8th back in 2022 and not making a higher selection?"

The answer is because they drafted Seider and Raymond and they were both Calder candidates in 2022.

You're also only using the "why didn't they pick higher" argument against teams that didn't win lotteries. Seriously, they were in a great position to draft higher. for at least a 5 year run.

2017 - Tied with Dallas in points. Dallas won the lottery (Heiskanen)
2018 - Top 5 odds, fell to 6th
2019 - top 4 odds, fell to 6th
2020 - #1 odds, fell to 4th
2021 - top 5 odds, fell to 6th

Replace New Jersey's draft luck with Detroit's, and they probably have Cody Glass, Lias Andersson or Casey Mittlestadt instead of Nico Hischier. Why aren't you saying that New Jersey should have tanked harder? Again - you're basing your entire argument on lottery luck being something that can be controlled, which it can't.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It really would have been easier for you to just admit that you blindly trust him because you still can’t differentiate between Yzerman the legendary Hall of Fame captain and Yzerman the underperforming, underdelivering GM, and you’d still happily be bleating “trust the Yzerplan!!” if they still weren’t a playoff team by 2026.

Like I said, that’s your right. But for the rest of us who live in the present and have standards, it’s not good enough anymore.

I like how you deflect to ranting with no point when you can't actually argue the topic.

Didn't address the point that Yzerman has been saying since day 1 build through the draft, and he's not looking to simply be a playoff team.

Didn't address the point that Bertuzzi was an obvious trade as Yzerman wasn't going to give him a long term contract. (He should've though, right? Tyler is playing so great these days)

Didn't address the point that this team even let Jeff Blashill play out his contract after multiple absurd 9-10 goal blowouts, but you're somehow shocked that they haven't fired Lalonde yet.

Nah. You just do this whiney ranting because you can't actually stay on topic.

 

[Dotter]

Aleksei Protas currently has double Lucas Raymond's production at even-strength. Faber is the #1 Dman on the 3rd best team in the league. Laferriere, Peterka and Dorofeyev individually have more production than Copp and Compher combined; they're all pacing to score more than these two players ever have in Detroit. Even Vlasic is outscoring Compher, and he's a defensive Dman on a garbage team. Also they're all young and are paid very little; they're all great NHL assets, the kind that are exactly what Detroit lacks right now. And no you don't get dirt-cheap 23 year-olds on a 60 pt pace in UFA. You get them by actually drafting well.

I stand corrected, it appears you are not trying to have an honest. I guess that is why everyone is piling on you.

Career high NHL forwards points as follow:

Pavel Dorofeyev = 23 points
Alex Laferriere = 23 points
JJ Peterka = 50 points
Aleksei Protas = 29 points

Compher put up those kind of points in his first full NHL season (well 69 games played) and a career best 52 points. He was a UFA signing.

Copp carreer high is 42 points and by his 3rd NHL season (like some of your examples above) put up 28 points. Another UFA signing.

Yzerman drafted mostly defensemen in 2019 and 2020.

Pacing is garbage... talk about "blind faith". I remember one year Larkin was pacing for 100 goals. LOL! You'd rip anyone who pointed that out, and rightfully so. Just like you should be ripped for your dumb comment. "Pacing"

You put me on your ignore list because you knew, YOU KNEW!

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Overall, I'm still pretty high on how "Build through the draft" is going considering we haven't had a single lotto pick.

But a picture says a thousand words, and our pro scouting is hot trash.

 

[Golden_Jet]

What is clear by now is that Yzerman will get crap if he doesn't put youngsters on the roster, and that he absolutely, 100% will get crap if he does put youngsters on the roster.


I'd debate that.

New Jersey: essentially nothing outside the 1st round (and Holtz-Mercer-Mukhamadullin is a weeeeaaaaak result for 3 1st rounders in 2020)

Buffalo: JJ Peterka is a hit. But that's about it outside the 1st. Both Quinn & Cozens are also a bit underwhelming for top 10 picks so far imo.

LA: Really mixed bag. Faber is a great pick but does it count if they didn't even know what they had and traded him? 2019 I'd say their 1st round is a bit of a disaster (Turcotte+Björnfot). Does Kaliyev and Spence make up for that? Byfield still hasn't taken the next step.. but they have Laferriere I guess.

Ottawa: Lassi Thomson is a pretty decent d-man in the SHL these days. Pinto saves that draft for them. I don't think Järventie or Kleven are anything to write home about.

etc.

Personally the only pick I really wish Detroit would have made would be Peterka - that said I still think Wallinder has NHL potential.


An argument that fanbases typically overrate their own prospects is fair. An argument that paints the entirety of every fanbase as completely delusional is a bit of a strawman.

Ottawa has 8 picks from the 2020 draft that have played games .
Detroit has one the fourth overall pick.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Ottawa has 8 picks from the 2020 draft that have played 2 games or more.
Detroit has one the fourth overall pick.

Damn, Detroit should play a bunch of 2020 guys for two games to wear it around like a badge of honor.

Also nice of you to cherry pick 2020 for Ottawa, as it was a very good draft for them. (You'd hope so with two top 5 picks)

We wont talk about any of their other drafts between 2019 and 2023...

 

[Golden_Jet]

Damn, Detroit should play a bunch of 2020 guys for two games to wear it around like a badge of honor.

Also nice of you to cherry pick 2020 for Ottawa, as it was a very good draft for them. (You'd hope so with two top 5 picks)

We wont talk about any of their other drafts between 2019 and 2023...

It’s 657 games played from that draft vs 259.
So 400 games more.
Remove the top 5 picks its 174 games to zero.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It’s 657 games played from that draft vs 259.
So 400 games more.
Remove the top 5 picks its 174 games to zero.

I like how you completely glossed over the point about you completely glossing over those other four drafts.

Also weirdly timed commentary considering Donovan Sebrango just got called up by your Senators.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Also weirdly timed commentary considering Donovan Sebrango just got called up by your Senators.

Yep called up to be a 7th defenseman on the trip to California.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Yep called up to be a 7th defenseman on the trip to California.

Cool. Now let's talk about Shane Pinto being your only notable draftee from the 2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023 drafts.

 

[TKB]

It is pretty funny because as frustrating as the NHL DRW season has been so far, in the big picture this is as good as I have felt about the rebuild yet, as we have seen further tangible evidence of progress for key prospects this year.

DRW are:

Seider, Edvinsson and ASP towards an excellent top 4 d-core.

Cossa and Augustine towards excellent goaltending.

Kasper and Danielson towards not elite, but 3 very good 2Cs as a foundation for a good if not elite forward group.

From there you can use UFA and trades to round out the roster.

There is no guarantee of ultimate success, but SY is doing exactly what he said he was going to do, and so far is on track.

All this playoff non-playoff talk is perplexing. For all the deserved accolades the NJD get for their rebuild, since Yzerman has been in Detroit, the Devils have made the playoffs once. Which in no way shape or form means I don't expect them to be very good for the forseeable future.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Cool. Now let's talk about Shane Pinto being your only notable draftee from the 2019, 2021, 2022, and 2023 drafts.

So in those 4 drafts 373 games played for Senators vs 362 for wings players.

So total from 2019 to present is 1030 games played for Senators draft picks.
Wings 621 games played.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Again - you're basing your entire argument on lottery luck being something that can be controlled, which it can't.

Drafting in general is almost entirely luck (at least beyond the top ten picks), that's why it's fun to laugh at Wings fans that thought simply hiring Yzerman was going to turn them around.

His ability to replicate what happened in Tampa was always going to be miniscule.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

So in those 4 drafts 373 games played for Senators vs 362 for wings players.

So total from 2019 to present is 1030 games played for Senators draft picks.
Wings 621 games played.

So in summary, Shane Pinto, Mark Kastelic, Tyler Boucher, and Lassi Thompson vs. Mo Seider, Simon Edvinsson, Sebastian Cossa, Marco Kasper, Nate Danielson, and ASP.

And I think we've found why you don't want to talk about those drafts.

 

[Chainshot]

What a huge win for the Wings.

- Simon Edvinsson 1+1, +2, continues to be a monster. On pace for 40 points without PP time.
- Seider 1+1, +3, another masterclass
- Dylan Larkin, on pace for 47 goals
- Lucas Raymond, goals in 3 straight after a slow scoring start
- Albert Johansson, 1st career point
- Lyon, .931

I thought this thread (or the Yzerplan thread) only get posts after losses? C'mon, throwing off the rhythm of it all.

 

[sting101]

Evaluating a GM

Drafting and Development - looks to be excellent
* Seider Edvinsson ASP is an enviable top3 defence coming along nicely.... A+
* Cossa and Augustine looks excellent in goal.......A
* Kasper Danielson i thought you could have swung higher for the fences but both look to be safe solid picks and SY is smart to build through the middle. Has plenty of insulation too in Larkin Compher Copp for them to slow cook without too much on their shoulders.......B
* Raymond Nygard.....Raymond is stud PPG scorer and Nygard at 15 i love. That kid is a beast....A
* Nobody has been rushed or jerked around in development from what i can gather.......A

In House contracts - the long term contracts for DeBrincat Larkin Seider Raymond look excellent...A

Pro Scouting w/contracts - without listing them all this is where as things unfold it will have to be significantly better. Some of the signings do offer scaled internal competition and nobody wants to sign on a retool/rebuild so you have to give some slack......C-

Direction and Culture
* Trading Hronek and Bertuzzi doubling down on the retool is what every GM should be trying to do when things look like good players wont be part of the upswing and in the right contracts. ASP DeBrincat are 2 valuable pieces moving forward now.

When the team gets the push from the young guys mentioned maturing most of the contracts will be gone.......I'm not sure what the negativity is unless you just focus on July and free agent signings. In saying that it definitely has to be much better

 

[Nogatco Rd]

Drafting in general is almost entirely luck (at least beyond the top ten picks)

Don’t really buy that. Yeah the odds of drafting a super star are much lower, but that doesn’t equate to “the draft after 10 OA = luck”

There are some teams that consistently nail their late first round picks and manage to find contributors in the later rounds, while others don’t.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Don’t really buy that. Yeah the odds of drafting a super star are much lower, but that doesn’t equate to “the draft after 10 OA = luck”

There are some teams that consistently nail their late first round picks and manage to find contributors in the later rounds, while others don’t.

Nobody buys it lol.

Oddly coincidental that Detroit's drafting started sucking ass when Jim Nill left and now Dallas' drafting is incredible.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Nobody buys it lol.

Oddly coincidental that Detroit's drafting started sucking ass when Jim Nill left and now Dallas' drafting is incredible.

Ya Nill was/is excellent

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Ya Nill was/is excellent

Yeah, he could've probably helped Ottawa a lot from 2019-2023.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yeah, he could've probably helped Ottawa a lot from 2019-2023.

For sure, and Detroit

 

[Shane Diesel]

Don’t really buy that. Yeah the odds of drafting a super star are much lower, but that doesn’t equate to “the draft after 10 OA = luck”

There are some teams that consistently nail their late first round picks and manage to find contributors in the later rounds, while others don’t.

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People have crunched the numbers on this across pro sports. It's unequivocally luck.