Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Byron Bitz]

I don't understand how these takes are so prevalent when the vast majority of drafted players have yet to hit the NHL. The current roster is uninspiring yes, but the rebuild is not over. Acting like the current roster is the one meant to compete for a Stanley Cup is disingenuous at best.

So what you think guys like Nate Danielson are gonna make them a contender? They lack high end talent at both the NHL and prospect level.

 

[cvaicunas]

So what you think guys like Nate Danielson are gonna make them a contender? They lack high end talent at both the NHL and prospect level.

Again, how are you so certain of his ceiling as an NHL player. No high end talent? Check Cossa's numbers, small sample size yes, this season in the AHL. Check out ASP and what he's doing in the SHL. Look at Buchelnikov in the KHL this season, and where his scoring ranks this season; and historically. Danielson is heating up in the AHL after a rough, statistically, first 10 games in the AHL. No one knows how they're going to end up, but it's trollish for anyone to suggest these players are incapable of being high end talent. Raymond is currently on a PPG pace on a team playing like a dumpster fire. Seider has been logging the hardest minutes in the NHL over the last two seasons, and not looking out of place. I'm sorry, are you going to point to Copp now and reaffirm everyone's understanding that he is not a cornerstone of the franchise.

 

[odin1981]

Proof is in the pudding. Wings are falling back again in their hope for the playoffs. At some point a rebuild needs to take a leap forward and that leap is dictated by the team’s top players. Yzerman had those guys in Tampa. He’s doesn’t even have one guy of that elite level in Detroit. Not too sure where he finds them. And as more of these younger guys come into their big dollar contracts, if the club continues to struggle they might need to give up on this rebuild and try again. All my opinion of course and could be totally wrong.

He also inherited a #1C, and #1D in Tampa. Don't forget that. He only inherited a #1C in Detroit. Those two positions don't often materialize outta of non top 5 picks. Of which he has only had 1 that turned into Raymond. If this is a take a step back year they could grab a center that will replace Larkin as he ages out of the #1C spot with some lotto luck (1-3 overall range). If Kasper or Danielsson don't become that.

 

[Czechboy]

So what you think guys like Nate Danielson are gonna make them a contender? They lack high end talent at both the NHL and prospect level.

You're about to be told that every single guy Detroit has drafted in rounds 1 to 3 is all but guaranteed to be a full time NHLer.

The answer is always the same... 2 guys are killing it in Raymond and Seider. The rest are rookies or completely unproven at NHL level while being good at their current level (or excelling at it). When they all arrive, Detroit will be a contender for many years. Guys like Petry. Holl and Chariot will be long gone (Larkin will still be 27 and elite though).

Because they will all be good, then UFA's will want to come and Yzerman will sign/trade several top end guys to complete it. Then, bam, Stanley Cup is back in motown in 2027. Cossa is the starter. Seider, Erv and Asp are the base of an insane D core. Raymond/Kaspar/31 year old Larkin will be leading the offence. The rest of the guys will fill in those bottom pairings and lines. UFAs will do the rest.

 

[odin1981]

You're about to be told that every single guy Detroit has drafted in rounds 1 to 3 is all but guaranteed to be a full time NHLer.

The answer is always the same... 2 guys are killing it in Raymond and Seider. The rest are rookies or completely unproven at NHL level while being good at their current level (or excelling at it). When they all arrive, Detroit will be a contender for many years. Guys like Petry. Holl and Chariot will be long gone (Larkin will still be 27 and elite though).

Because they will all be good, then UFA's will want to come and Yzerman will sign/trade several top end guys to complete it. Then, bam, Stanley Cup is back in motown in 2027. Cossa is the starter. Seider, Erv and Asp are the base of an insane D core. Raymond/Kaspar/31 year old Larkin will be leading the offence. The rest of the guys will fill in those bottom pairings and lines. UFAs will do the rest.

It's unlikely they become contenders by the '27 season. They might start to make noise by qualifying for the playoffs around then but it will again be a learning process on how to get to a ECF or better at that point. 1st step is consistently making the playoffs so say 3-4 times in a 5 year period. Then pushing past the second round to opening up a window of contention.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

So the only way to properly rebuild a franchise is to draft, in the case of two of these players, is to draft generational talent?

Yes.

Oilers were worse for a longer than the Wings. We know the difference between a solid 1st line player, and guys that win hardware.

It doesn't matter how you get those pieces, but the most 'predictable method' is top of the draft. You'll get an elite franchise player at the top of the draft once every 2-3 drafts. Which is why 'most' cup winners in the salary cap-era spent considerable amount of time in the basement accrueing those elite players.

Then its random cosmic fluke.

Just look at all the previous 40 cup champs. They're almost always filled with guys that are finalists for Selke's Harts Rosses Rockets Norris and Vezina's.

Most of them were drafted at the top of draft, but if youre a sunbelt team (or the Rags) you can sign them in free agency.


If you disagree with this sentiment, then present to me all the cup winners since WHA expansion that managed to win without elite players capable of winning individual hardware.


Larkin and Seider are not finalists for hardware. They're good but not elite.

 

[NailsHoglander]

I have nothing against Wings fans but I really want to see Walman hit em with the Griddy tomorrow night

 

[Fatass]

He also inherited a #1C, and #1D in Tampa. Don't forget that. He only inherited a #1C in Detroit. Those two positions don't often materialize outta of non top 5 picks. Of which he has only had 1 that turned into Raymond. If this is a take a step back year they could grab a center that will replace Larkin as he ages out of the #1C spot with some lotto luck (1-3 overall range). If Kasper or Danielsson don't become that.

Who is the 1C Yzerman inherited in Detroit? If that’s Larkin (good player for sure) he’s not even close to a Stamkos. And that’s the rub. The Wings have a bunch of good players, but not star players. And it’s those star players that make the difference. Imo he should be using some of his young good players (and picks/prospects) to try and pry away an elite player.

 

[Czechboy]

Yes.

Oilers were worse for a longer than the Wings. We know the difference between a solid 1st line player, and guys that win hardware.

It doesn't matter how you get those pieces, but the most 'predictable method' is top of the draft. You'll get an elite franchise player at the top of the draft once every 2-3 drafts. Which is why 'most' cup winners spent considerable amount of time in the basement accrueing those elite players.

Then its random cosmic fluke.

Just look at all the previous 40 cup champs. They're almost always filled with guys that are finalists for Selke's Harts Rosses Rockets Norris and Vezina's.

Most of them were drafted at the top of draft, but if youre a sunbelt team (or the Rags) you can sign them in free agency.


If you disagree with this sentiment, then present to me all the cup winners since WHA expansion that managed to win without elite players capable of winning individual hardware.


Larkin and Seider are not finalists for hardware. They're good but not elite.

I agree with all this. But I'm very high on Seider and do think when he gets properly supported on that blue line that he'll be a Norris finalist at least once in his career. I'd take him in an OIl jersey in a heartbeat and if he wants to play for the Czechs, I'd take him there in a heartbeat.lol

 

[SirKillalot]

Larkin and Seider are not finalists for hardware. They're good but not elite.

Say what you want about Larkin, he is roughly in the same spectre as Eichel, a little worse. Overall both have around 4 seasons of point per game. I'm critical of Larkin's progress, but he's good. However Seider is elite and has all the numbers to show for it, except more point production.
Maybe lower end elite now, but he is still improving. He will be among the top d-men in this league. Number wise he already getting the heavy loads league wide.

 

[odin1981]

Who is the 1C Yzerman inherited in Detroit? If that’s Larkin (good player for sure) he’s not even close to a Stamkos. And that’s the rub. The Wings have a bunch of good players, but not star players. And it’s those star players that make the difference. Imo he should be using some of his young good players (and picks/prospects) to try and pry away an elite player.

I didn't say Larkin is a superstar. But he is a good 2 way #1C. But that is all he inherited when he took over for the DRW. The prospect pool was gutted mainly because of two reasons. Long term success in the playoffs (picking 20+ hurts or trading off first rounders for quick fix players when your gunning for a cup), and inheriting Tyler Wright's lackluster drafting for around 4-5 years.

Hell ask Edmonton fans if they are very happy with his finds.

 

[Fatass]

I didn't say Larkin is a superstar. But he is a good 2 way #1C. But that is all he inherited when he took over for the DRW. The prospect pool was gutted mainly because of two reasons. Long term success in the playoffs (picking 20+ hurts or trading off first rounders for quick fix players when your gunning for a cup), and inheriting Tyler Wright's lackluster drafting for around 4-5 years.

Hell ask Edmonton fans if they are very happy with his finds.

Imo Larkin would be a good 2C. He is the default 1C on the Wings because Yzerman hasn’t been able to find anyone better. Like I wrote previously the time is very close where Yzerman pushes all his chips in and tries to get an elite centre (and I think an elite D too) or the club will be stuck in that mush middle. And then he will get replaced and the next guy will sell off pieces and try the rebuild again. It’s a bad cycle for fans, that’s for sure.

 

[Finnen]

We need a new #1 center Rasmussen or a trade Larkin for Barzal at any rate.

Barzal's stats:

2024-25 Season

GP	G	A	P
10	2	3	5

Career

GP	G	A	P
510	130	317	447

Approximately like Larkin. High assist score too. Like Crosby, too. Young yet.

 

[odin1981]

Imo Larkin would be a good 2C. He is the default 1C on the Wings because Yzerman hasn’t been able to find anyone better. Like I wrote previously the time is very close where Yzerman pushes all his chips in and tries to get an elite centre (and I think an elite D too) or the club will be stuck in that mush middle. And then he will get replaced and the next guy will sell off pieces and try the rebuild again. It’s a bad cycle for fans, that’s for sure.

If you look at Pittsburgh, Chicago (Toews era not current Kane and Keith aren't generational but where definitely elite tier), Colorado rebuilds they took around 10-12 years. Yes they where boosted with generational talent as well. But it's only year 5-6 of the wings rebuild (under Yzerman). They still have about another half of a rebuild to go as far as timelines go.

Also one point, outside of his rookie year Larkin has never had a fully functional first line because the depth on the Wings his entire career has been horrid. It's usually him plus one firstline capable player and then some extra piece role player.

His potential has never been maximized because his line is the only credible forward line with any scoring ability. So it's very easy to line match his line because there is no other top 6 capable line on the team to cause potential matchup issues.

 

[Fatass]

If you look at Pittsburgh, Chicago (Toews era not current Kane and Keith aren't generational but where definitely elite tier), Colorado rebuilds they took around 10-12 years. Yes they where boosted with generational talent as well. But it's only year 5-6 of the wings rebuild (under Yzerman). They still have about another half of a rebuild to go as far as timelines go.

Also one point, outside of his rookie year Larkin has never had a fully functional first line because the depth on the Wings his entire career has been horrid. It's usually him plus one firstline capable player and then some extra piece role player.

His potential has never been maximized because his line is the only credible forward line with any scoring ability. So it's very easy to line match his line because there is no other top 6 capable line on the team to cause potential matchup issues.

True, providing Yzerman can find the elite guys he’s currently missing. And where do those guys most often come from? High picks in the draft, right? The Wings are not good enough to make the playoffs (likely) and too good to get a high pick. I don’t know how Yzerman gets his elite guys considering where the team is now. He’d need to sell his best younger players and dive to the bottom of the league again to get those high picks.

 

[odin1981]

True, providing Yzerman can find the elite guys he’s currently missing. And where do those guys most often come from? High picks in the draft, right? The Wings are not good enough to make the playoffs (likely) and too good to get a high pick. I don’t know how Yzerman gets his elite guys considering where the team is now. He’d need to sell his best younger players and dive to the bottom of the league again to get those high picks.

If they don't get some lotto luck over the next 2-4 years. He will probably have to look at trades or UFA players if they make it to UFA.

 

[norrisnick]

Disagree.. the decade of darkness sucked. Being out by Xmas. Losing every trade. Shitty GM's. Signing mediocre players for big contracts becuase of 'character'. 1st round picks not panning out. For the Oilers we called it HOPE (Hall, Omark, Pajjarvi and Eberle) and HOPE didn't pan out at all. That was awful. I'll take playoff teams and winning rounds all day long over that.

You old enough to see the Oilers actually win? After watching 4 wins, '09 was way worse than this recent run.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Say what you want about Larkin, he is roughly in the same spectre as Eichel, a little worse. Overall both have around 4 seasons of point per game. I'm critical of Larkin's progress, but he's good. However Seider is elite and has all the numbers to show for it, except more point production.
Maybe lower end elite now, but he is still improving. He will be among the top d-men in this league. Number wise he already getting the heavy loads league wide.

It's cool.

Larkin is a 1st line Center but there's 20 centers who get roughly PPG. He's just an adequate 1st line center.

If he's your #1C you need other guys on the team to be competing for Selke's, Norris', and Vezinas.

 

[Nogatco Rd]

I think it’s pretty obvious what the issue is. Al Sobotka has put a hex on the Red Wings and they will not return to the playoffs until he is reinstated to his rightful place as Zamboni driver

 

[SirKillalot]

It's cool.

Larkin is a 1st line Center but there's 20 centers who get roughly PPG. He's just an adequate 1st line center.

If he's your #1C you need other guys on the team to be competing for Selke's, Norris', and Vezinas.

And scorers for that matter.

But yes, that is how Yzerman and his management is trying to structure the team. They are not going to outscore the McDavids, MacKinnons, Kucherovs, Matthews etc. Something he learned from his own career and something he set up in Tampa as well. No one expected Kucherov for example to become that good.

 

[thekernel]

Who is the 1C Yzerman inherited in Detroit? If that’s Larkin (good player for sure) he’s not even close to a Stamkos. And that’s the rub. The Wings have a bunch of good players, but not star players. And it’s those star players that make the difference. Imo he should be using some of his young good players (and picks/prospects) to try and pry away an elite player.

Best I can do is 10 million for Compher and Copp

 

[Czechboy]

You old enough to see the Oilers actually win? After watching 4 wins, '09 was way worse than this recent run.

I am... But I still remember 2006 and the final run against Carolina. It was great. Or 2016.. I loved that squad and enjoyed it despite no success and us going back to shit the following year. The highs are infrequent for Czech and Oiler fans so I celebrate them hard.lol

 

[Finnen]

Best I can do is 10 million for Compher and Copp

I remember Copp maybe Copp or the trade of Larkin to NYI and Barzal in the contrary direction Copp or Barzal as the leadership role as the leading #1 center in the Red Wings what to say?

 

[Fatass]

Best I can do is 10 million for Compher and Copp

Imo Yzerman should be after Zegras. He immediately becomes their forward with the highest ceiling.

 

[norrisnick]

Imo Yzerman should be after Zegras. He immediately becomes their forward with the highest ceiling.

It's this shit I can't take seriously. The same people saying the Wings need difference makers fawning over Zegras...