Detroit Redwings Downfall

[Czechboy]

It's not difficult. There's a finite amount of elite players and Detroit does not have them.

They play in Toronto, Florida and Tampa.

Ahem...

https://x.com/i/web/status/1857448823687151726

Connor would like a word with you...

 

[Czechboy]

telling HHOF 3 time Stanley Cup champion who Captained his team to over 25 playoff appearances, and is part of the Gold club what it takes to win a cup. Lol

This was from when the Oiler's were in a similar position to your Wing's now. One of my all time favorite press clips... up there with Voracek calling that reporter a piece of shit or Torts yelling at Brooksy.lol

Give it a watch as it relates heavily to your post.

 

[Puckstuff]

Ahem...

https://x.com/i/web/status/1857448823687151726

Connor would like a word with you...

Did Connor join the Red Wings?

 

[Bouboumaster]

Don't worry Red Wings fans, you ain't gonna hit rock bottom because my Habs are already there

 

[Czechboy]

Did Connor join the Red Wings?

You said the elite guys play in Toronto, Florida and Tampa. You missed a few outside the Atlantic.

 

[Barsky]

The wings are doing the opposite of what Edmonton did because Edmonton showed how horribly it worked. They drafted at the top for years, had absolutely 0 dmen or veterans to help teach the young guys good habits. They got out of it by drafting a future top 5 player of all time.

The wings right now have 2 dmen that are better/going to be better than anything Edmonton has had in 15 years. Their rebuilds aren't comparable. On this website the oilers got circle jerked for years about how good they were gonna be because they went all in with the young guys and look how that worked out.



I don't think Detroits rebuild started when Yzerman took over, but I think its fair to judge Yzerman for only his tenure and not lumping picks like Zadina or Rasmussen onto his resume.

I also think its funny to act like Ottawa is either miles ahead in their rebuilds or that circumstances weren't completely different. Ottawa had to sell a team in their prime, that was 1 goal away from the cup final because of inept management and leadership around the team. Detroit started with nothing in the cupboards after years as one of the top/most respected teams in the league.

Ottawa should be so much further ahead than they are right now.

We'll see how Detroits rebuild does when all their dmen and goalies arrive, they don't a lot of flashy forwards that will get loved on a website like this though

You're completely ignoring the fact they had the worst owner in pro sports for 2 decades. Detroit should be farther ahead than Ottawa, stop projecting, the Yzerplan has gone off the rails

 

[Peasy]

You said the elite guys play in Toronto, Florida and Tampa. You missed a few outside the Atlantic.

Probably only talking about the Atlantic because you know, Detroit plays in the Atlantic and are directly competing for a playoff spot against those teams...Not against the Edmonton Oilers...

 

[Dotter]

But this is nonsense, speak less about Yzerman the Cult of Personality Leader and the Red Wings as a whole. Things are always much more fluid. They weren't an expansion team in April of 2019. They had draft picks, prospects, roster players including ones that were or could have been traded. They had been doing "rebuild stuff" for a while, which is why Yzerman walked in with so many draft picks in 2019 to begin with. You don't get to view every other team as a free-flowing continuous organization across multiple executive teams, but place everything from a Red Wings standpoint as Day 1 being April 19, 2019. That is just not an objective analysis and a double standard. If you compare Yzerman the GM to [x] the GM then you're can only look from the time each GM took over, if you are taking a big picture look at organizations then you look at all of them the same and not one standard for one and a different for another.

I think perspective is important and no other rebuilding team has surpassed. That was the point, but people act like yzerman is responsible for this team since 2017 and beyond.

Hell, many of Yzerman's touted players aren't even in the NHL yet. They are young and tearing up their respective leagues.

I concur Holland's rebuild was a failure. Yzerman is being judged for not making the playoffs, yet your team hasn't made the playoffs in 8 years. Maybe that's not fair. But it's funny you want to judge yzerman and write him off as a failure. You don't get to have it both ways.

Fact is yzerman took the best possible players available to him in the 1st round in 2019, 2020, and 2021. 22+ TBD.

He also drafted some later round depth players. Not to mention ASP, Cossa who both look like future core pieces.

 

[Czechboy]

Probably only talking about the Atlantic because you know, Detroit plays in the Atlantic and are directly competing for a playoff spot against those teams...Not against the Edmonton Oilers...

You only play 26 games (out of 82) against your division so that'd be pretty shortsighted. That'd make a lot more sense in the Covid divisions a few years ago.

I'd also argue that Pasta was missed if that were the case. Stutzl would be another.

 

[Dotter]

This was from when the Oiler's were in a similar position to your Wing's now. One of my all time favorite press clips... up there with Voracek calling that reporter a piece of shit or Torts yelling at Brooksy.lol

Give it a watch as it relates heavily to your post.

I fail to see the connection. I never said Detroit's 90s success is costing yzermans rebuild in 2024, and Yzerman certainly never said that.

I said Holland's rebuild was a failure and yzerman had to clean it up.

Yzer has been successful with his first round picks and each season the team is significantly improving. Yes an 11 point jump is significant.

The only people demanding a playoff appearance are the people who want to fabricate fake criticism based on their personal unrealistic timeline.

 

[Puckstuff]

You said the elite guys play in Toronto, Florida and Tampa. You missed a few outside the Atlantic.

Detroit plays in the Atlantic division

 

[DRW895]

Make Detroit great again!

 

[Czechboy]

fail to see the connection.

Then you didn't watch the whole clip and Lowe talking about how he knows a thing or 2 about winning. It's now Oilers folklore.

 

[Dread Clawz]

Nill was almost getting fired ahead of the 2020 season and now best 3 in the league, maybe it helps giving someone time to do what their plan is.

You can't just go by results alone, you got to go by starting point. If not, Sharks could just fired Grier after last year, which obviously by results would be deserved, but by plan he is doing a solid job.



Montreal doesn't look better, I think they are slightly ahead in their curve than Detroit, but could pan out all ways at this point. Similar to Ottawa.

Rangers were never really as bad. First of all they had more pieces of value and they had more good pieces they could keep. More so than being a bad team, they had some bad years.
Can't really say they rebuilded, more re-tooled.

In 2017 they were 48-28-6 and in the playoffs - had 7th overall pick
In 2018 they were 34-39-9 and 8th worst. Had 9th overall pick
In 2019 they were 32-36-14 and 6th worst. Had 2nd overall pick.
In 2020 they were 37-28-5 and tied 7th worst. Had 1st overall pick.
In 2021 they were 27-23-6 tied 15th worst. Had 16th overall pick
In 2022 they were 52-24-6 tied 8th best in the league. traded 1st round
In 2023 they were 47-22-13 9th best in the league 23rd overall pick
In 2024 they were 55-23-4 best in the league. 30th overall pick

Detroit had:
In 2017 they were 33-36-13 tied 6th worst - had 9th overall pick
In 2018 they were 30-39-13 tied 5th worst - had 6th overall pick
In 2019 they were 32-40-10 4th worst - had 6th overall pick
In 2020 they were 17-49-5 worst team by 24 points - had 4th overall pick
In 2021 they were 19-27-10 tied 4th worst - had 6th overall pick
In 2022 they were 32-40-10 8th worst - had 8th overall pick
In 2023 they were 35-27-10 tied 8th worst - had 9th overall pick
In 2024 they were 41-32-9 tied 15th worst - had 15th overall pick

Not one time has Detroit drafted above position. Rangers did so 3 times. And a lot above as well.

The whole point is people ARE going by starting point and plan, not results. It's 6 years in and the plan seems to have faults. The majority of people here are in agreement that the Wings lack enough high end talent in their pipeline to rebuild into a contender. Larkin-Seider- Raymond- DeBrincat is not a good enough core that is going to carry you to a Cup alone. If the owner is judging his plan, I think he'd have right to find faults and have a lot of questions about the direction.

Montreal is better. I'd rather have Skafkovsjy/Suzuki/Caufield/Demidov/Guhle/Huston/Dach/Mobtembeault/Xhekaj/Xhekaj/Hage/Mailloux/Reinbacher/Fowler/Newhook/Barron/Mesar/Kapanen/Struble/Koivu/Harris/Beck/Roy/Farrelll/Tuch etc than Larkin/Seider/DeBrincat/Raymond/Edvinsson)ASP/Buchelnikov/Johansson/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper/Danielsson/Brandsegg-Nygard/Lombardi/Rasmussen/Veleno/Mazur/Wallinder/Buium/Cleveland/Plante/James etc. First of all, they have more pure scoring talent. They also have a ton of great D prospects which is Detroit's strength. Montreal's D is just as good as Detroit s. They also have Mobtemveault, Detroit has no future goalie currently in the NHL, unless you count Lyon.

 

[Finnen]

Did Connor join the Red Wings?

Not possible. The Red Wings has its boy Larkin 1C.

Give credit to Rasmussen like 1C I wish.

DeBrincat-Rasmussen-Kane the radar pairs.

DeBrincat-Larkin-Kane momentarily.

Later next trade stands on Gustafsson > Penguins + M.Pettersson > Red Wings like one on HF has reckon on?

But Gustafsson meant right for our team.

 

[Dread Clawz]

People tend to overrate offense in the prospect pipeline and underrate defense. That's because it's a lot easier to "see" offense on hockey db or eliteprospects. The end result of Detroit drafting a lot of good two-way players remains to be seen, but we're starting to see a little bit of it with Kasper being a good defensive center already, Raymond developing a strong defensive game, and Edvinsson-Seider being one of the league's best defensive pairings.

when I say top end talent, I do include defense. Obviously Seider and Edvinsson are top end talents

 

[SirKillalot]

The whole point is people ARE going by starting point and plan, not results. It's 6 years in and the plan seems to have faults. The majority of people here are in agreement that the Wings lack enough high end talent in their pipeline to rebuild into a contender. Larkin-Seider- Raymond- DeBrincat is not a good enough core that is going to carry you to a Cup alone.

Montreal is better. I'd rather have Skafkovsjy/Suzuki/Caufield/Demidov/Guhle/Huston/Dach/Mobtembeault/Xhekaj/Xhekaj/Hage/Mailloux/Reinbacher/Fowler/Newhook/Barron/Mesar/Kapanen/Struble/Koivu etc than Larkin/Seider/DeBrincat/Raymond/Cossa/Augustine/Kasper/Rasmussen/Brandsegg-Nygard/Lombardi/Rasmussen/Veleno/Mazur/Wallinder/Buium/Cleveland/Plante/James etc. First of all, they have more pure scoring talent. They also have a ton of great D prospects which is Detroit's strength. Montreal's D is just as good as Detroit s. They also have Mobtemveault, Detroit has no future goalie currently in the NHL, unless you count Lyon.

At the moment its four things.
1. Both teams have faults in their rebuild, its not like everything goes smooth for either sides.
2. Montreal's prospects are overrated to a degree and Detroit's prospects is underrated to a degree.
3. For now, who is the high end talent that's gonna carry Montreal to anything? I'm not saying their talents are bad, I think they are quite good, but its a process from prospect to legit upside good enough core and from where I'm standing its a big question mark how high Montreal will get with theirs too. You say they have more pure scoring talent, but besides Caufield they are not scoring goals (outside the NHL, you got some players scoring points, but not more goals necessarily). Now I think they have a bit more upside on the center position which is valuable and as you mentioned seem to have great d-prospects. But a bit similar to goalies, and like with Detroit too, the d-prospects is always difficult to quite accurately project, been many good ones in junior and AHL/overseas who couldn't find their way in the NHL. Also both teams can only ice 6-7 so don't really see either say having a major upside vs. the other there overall at the moment.
Goalie wise, idk their goalie don't seem to have higher upside, but he's there so that is of course a plus compared to the others who first need to get there.

4. Montreal is a bit ahead of Detroit in their rebuild I'd say timewise, not necessarily overall, but according to when they started, but that can also even out again as development isn't necessarily linear. It will be a fun matchup going down the road.

 

[Devilsfan2326]

Make Detroit great again!

Make the wheel in the logo great again too!

 

[SirKillalot]

Make the wheel in the logo great again too!

Put the C on the left side and make the jersey great again too!

 

[TKB]

Keep 'em coming HF Boards, keep "em coming.

These threads provide so much entertainment.

 

[Dread Clawz]

I fail to see the connection. I never said Detroit's 90s success is costing yzermans rebuild in 2024, and Yzerman certainly never said that.

I said Holland's rebuild was a failure and yzerman had to clean it up.

Yzer has been successful with his first round picks and each season the team is significantly improving. Yes an 11 point jump is significant.

The only people demanding a playoff appearance are the people who want to fabricate fake criticism based on their personal unrealistic timeline.

At the moment its four things.
1. Both teams have faults in their rebuild, its not like everything goes smooth for either sides.
2. Montreal's prospects are overrated to a degree and Detroit's prospects in underrated to a degree.
3. For now, who is the high end talent that's gonna carry Montreal to anything? I'm not saying their talents are bad, I think they are quite good, but its a process from prospect to legit upside good enough core and from where I'm standing its a big question mark how high Montreal will get with theirs too. You say they have more pure scoring talent, but besides Caufield they are not scoring goals (outside the NHL, you got some players scoring points, but not more goals necessarily). Now I think they have a bit more upside on the center position which is valuable and as you mentioned seem to have great d-prospects. But a bit similar to goalies, and like with Detroit too, the d-prospects is always difficult to quite accurately project, been many good ones in junior and AHL/overseas who couldn't find their way in the NHL. Also both teams can only ice 6-7 so don't really see either say having a major upside vs. the other there overall at the moment.
Goalie wise, idk their goalie don't seem to have higher upside, but he's there so that is of course a plus compared to the others who first need to get there.

4. Montreal is a bit ahead of Detroit in their rebuild I'd say timewise, not necessarily overall, but according to when they started, but that can also even out again as development isn't necessarily linear. It will be a fun matchup going down the road.

I'm not saying Montreal's pipeline is perfect, I just think it's more well-rounded than Detroit's. I don't think Montreal's prospects are overrated. Which ones specifically?

By scoring talent I mean overall scoring. I'm sure with Slaf, Caufield, Demidov, Suzuki, Dach , Hage, and some of their other B prospects, they'll figure out a way to score some goals.

Yeah you can only uce so many d-men on a roster, but what I mean is depth is important because it ensures you WILL have a good defense. They can also be trade chips if you have an abundance. Like I said,I think both teams ' future outlook on D is about equal.

 

[Finnen]

At the moment its things.
1. Both teams have faults in their rebuild, its not like everything goes smooth for either sides.
2. Montreal's prospects are overrated to a degree and Detroit's prospects in underrated to a degree.

1. Both teams are on progress.
2. Detroit had Raymond, Larkin, DeBrincat, Seider, Kane and Lyon as its best for 7th good Tarasenko produce under world class may.
Montreal had Caufield, Suzuki, Slafkovsky, Montembeault and Laine as its best world class and Demidov back next year.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

It’s interesting to see the outside take on this. Facts of Yzerman’s tenure. His team has made a points improvement every year in his tenure to date. I grant this year may challenge that. So his team is improving and playing more important games for the young core. He rolled the entire roster outside of Rasmussen, Veleno, and Larkin being the only Holland picks left. Built a top 5 farm system. He locked in his three best players long term for 25 million before the cap shoots through the roof. He has two legitimate goalie prospects, Cossa arrives in the NHL likely next year at this point.

He said his first day on the job he wouldn’t put a timeline on it they would keep getting better. You needed to develop talent and he has maintained that line. I think it starts to get uncomfortable some time next year if they are regressing a bunch. But I honestly find the logic in most of what Yzerman has done. Certain things haven’t worked but his contracts are set in a way where if they keep accelerating a little forward he has a lot more flexibility than I guess other fanbase think. I think he is looking 2-3 years from now when his entire core is there. Most of those guys are progressing quite nicely. So it the gamble being sold in Detroit has been sold pretty openly to us.

I know how bad we were at the end of trying to maintain the streak. It was important to our late Owner. It was going to be a long claw out. I think they are kind of where I expect if not a little better pipeline than I really could have anticipated with zero lottery luck. I guess we will see in a couple years if we are a basement lottery team most of their young players will have really disappointed. That’s with good early returns on Seider, Raymond, and Edvinsson. Happy to wait a few more and see out the decently big, fast two way player tilted towards goalie and a top 4, he needs to find one #3 defensive dman, not the most expensive.

Too many iffs, but we seem pretty pot committed to this through at least another season in terms of true market feelings about the heat he has.

These Yzerman threads, most of the market hasn’t turned on him. Prople can choose not to believe but that’s the evidence. We should uh let it go for a few months, it’s not a serious story.

 

[newfy]

You're completely ignoring the fact they had the worst owner in pro sports for 2 decades. Detroit should be farther ahead than Ottawa, stop projecting, the Yzerplan has gone off the rails

You're completely ignoring the fact that Holland sold the future to keep the playoff streak alive while Mr Illitch was still alive.

Ottawa started rebuilding 1 year later than the wings and got to sell a 2nd in division, one goal away from the finals team in their prime. Now they're in the same place as Detroit in the standings with no prospects coming to help, while Detroit still has one of the best prospect pools in the league on its way

 

[Ulysses31]

You think Seider and Edvidsson could be the two best dmen in the league? In a league with Makar and Hughes? Holy wings fans really are in a delusional state about this rebuild.

FYI sometimes players continue to improve while others get older, have injury problems, have down years, or/and regress