Post-Game Talk: Destroyed by Veggies

[TheDirtyH]

yeah I mean either Panarin took way too long a final shift or he didn't and he just displayed maybe the laziest play I've seen a player make in a Rangers Jersey since idk when. Either way him being the closest to the puck when it was turned over at the blueline and the fourth ranger back cost us the game.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

yeah I mean either Panarin took way too long a final shift or he didn't and he just displayed maybe the laziest play I've seen a player make in a Rangers Jersey since idk when. Either way him being the closest to the puck when it was turned over at the blueline and the fourth ranger back cost us the game.

I'm overtired of this player and despite that I'd never categorize him as lazy. This was an instance where he absolutely was.

Also maybe don't take marathon shifts anymore?

 

[Draft Guru]

He had all day to change when he passed the puck to Miller in the neutral zone, his shift was already ~2:15 at that point. There was no reason for him to follow that play into the zone after already being out on the ice that long. He wasn't the only one responsible for that goal but man was it a collection of mental errors for the ages.

 

[SA16]

There was 1 minute and 38 seconds of real time between the whistle on the PP with 57 seconds left and when they next dropped the puck. We have to stop acting like this mythical 2:45 shift was something outrageous. They got plenty of rest.

I think pretty clearly he stumbled when Lehkonen went around him (maybe they tangled legs or something, hard to see exactly what caused it without a reverse view) as his first step was very awkward and then once Lehkonen was past him he assumed (poorly) that he was out of the play and couldn't get back. It was lazy but I don't think it had anything to do with being tired. It wasn't a long shift.

 

[Matt Rentfree]

I need kaliyev to start doing a bit more. He's had time to acclimate. I propose flipping Chytil and Trocheck on their lines

If Kaliyev were capable of doing a bit more, L.A. wouldn't have put him on waivers. Kid is a bad skater.

 

[leetch99]

You tried your best and you failed. The lesson is, never try.

We were pretty good, but their best guys are just better than ours, and all of their guys know how to skate

Lot of truth there.....and it might sting for some , For starters.....Fox cannot even carry Makar's jock . Makar is just so much better at EVERYTHING ! He proved that easily yesterday but Fox is still a cut above many of the rest ....so not all bad .

Find the next Makar in the draft .

 

[leetch99]

It’s kind of incredible the rangers have turned the season around with Zibanejad and Kreider playing at below replacement level. Kreider, Zibanejad, Lindgren out and replaced with good players and this team might be in business.

Don't forget Lafreniere....he is right there with those guys .

 

[TheDirtyH]

Lot of truth there.....and it might sting for some , For starters.....Fox cannot even carry Makar's jock . Makar is just so much better at EVERYTHING ! He proved that easily yesterday but Fox is still a cut above many of the rest ....so not all bad .

Find the next Makar in the draft .

Until Fox is playing with a partner even 25% of the player, Devon Toews is, let alone spending 2/3 of his ice time with a player like Nathan MacKinnon, just don't bother comparing them. I don't mind complementing Makar, but dragging fox to do so is not only uncalled for, it's a poor assessment of the players.

 

[leetch99]

Until Fox is playing with a partner even 25% of the player, Devon Toews is, let alone spending 2/3 of his ice time with a player like Nathan MacKinnon, just don't bother comparing them. I don't mind complementing Makar, but dragging fox to do so is not only uncalled for, it's a poor assessment of the players.

So what does Fox do better ?

If he can't skate like him or shoot like him....it leaves little else of note ???? Fox is like i said a cut above the rest but sorely lags behind Makar .

 

[McRanger92]

As encouraging as it is to see the team play better overall, Panarin/Kreider/Zibanejad are all passengers. Every time they are on the ice together for the PP, it's a guarantee the other team will get a glorious shorthanded chance. We get a PP in the last 3 minutes with the game tied, and lose in regulation. The team has completely flipped in that Im much more confident 5v5 than I am on the power play now. Im so ready to move on from these bums. They do not have what it takes to win a Cup as the leadership group. You are out of your mind if you still think they can.

 

[TheDirtyH]

So what does Fox do better ?

If he can't skate like him or shoot like him....it leaves little else of note ???? Fox is like i said a cut above the rest but sorely lags behind Makar .

Fox can't carry Makars jock???

Fox processes the game and anticipates plays better than Makar. He's a better passer and a more creative problem solver. He's a better defender and penalty killer. The reason fox is so obviously less physically gifted than Makar and yet perennially in close comparison with him has to mean he's better at what he's best at and that much is so obvious.

And didn't I start by comparing who they share the ice with (and how much). That's meaningless? Every time I watch Colorado I come away amazed by MacKinnon which forward on the rangers awes you?

What a terrible take

 

[leetch99]

Fox can't carry Makars jock???

Fox processes the game and anticipates plays better than Makar. He's a better passer and a more creative problem solver. He's a better defender and penalty killer. The reason fox is so obviously less physically gifted than Makar and yet perennially in close comparison with him has to mean he's better at what he's best at and that much is so obvious.

And didn't I start by comparing who they share the ice with (and how much). That's meaningless? Every time I watch Colorado I come away amazed by MacKinnon which forward on the rangers awes you?

What a terrible take

A good take IMO when comparing the two . Anyways....it is what it is and you are entitled to your opinion . I doubt Drury would refuse a swap .

 

[Kovalev27]

Fox is a better defender and a smarter player playmaker than Makar easily. Makar is by far the better skater shooter scorer and pure play driver and threat on the ice. Fast and physical. He will always LOOK like the better player.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

As encouraging as it is to see the team play better overall, Panarin/Kreider/Zibanejad are all passengers. Every time they are on the ice together for the PP, it's a guarantee the other team will get a glorious shorthanded chance. We get a PP in the last 3 minutes with the game tied, and lose in regulation. The team has completely flipped in that Im much more confident 5v5 than I am on the power play now. Im so ready to move on from these bums. They do not have what it takes to win a Cup as the leadership group. You are out of your mind if you still think they can.

Not only that, they don't have what it takes to win a cup as "passengers".

 

[NickyFotiu]

A good take IMO when comparing the two . Anyways....it is what it is and you are entitled to your opinion . I doubt Drury would refuse a swap .

I don't think many people outside of this board would take Fox over Makar. Not bashing Fox but come on Makar is at a level above. I have said that for years. Col has 2 of the fastest guys in the league in Makar and Nate. Must be so fun to have that kind of elite speed.

 

[Machinehead]

So what does Fox do better ?

If he can't skate like him or shoot like him....it leaves little else of note ???? Fox is like i said a cut above the rest but sorely lags behind Makar .

Fox, on his game, is the best defensive player in the NHL. I'm not one of these people who thinks Makar is terrible defensively -- he ranges from mediocre to pretty good year to year. But he's nowhere near Fox in that department.

Fox is having a down year offensively, and really, it's just with goal-scoring. I think that has a lot to do with his partner and the fact that the team is playing 4v5 in the offensive zone.

Defensively, Fox is taking the hardest usage on the team, with a partner who is objectively terrible at suppressing offense, and he suppresses offense at levels that are frankly uncharted. Nobody has done this with a partner this bad. Probably ever.

Only 37 players in the league have a better 5v5 +/- than Fox. You know how many are #1 defenseman? None of them. He's the only player in the league who gets the results he does as exposed as he is.

His defensive WAR is taking a huge ding this year from penalty killing, but penalty killing results change with the wind. The efficacy of penalty killing is honestly limited outside of goaltending and luck.

When Fox is on the ice, the Rangers score 62% of the goals. When Lindgren is on the ice, the Rangers score 48% of the goals. Yes, they play together. It's goals -- it literally happened. To create a 14% gap with your partner is nothing short of black magic. That means the Rangers are pretty much Team Canada when Fox is on the ice and Lindgren isn't. They're pretty close to being Team Canada when Fox is on the ice, period.

Like I said, his defense is taking a "hit" this year if you look at the real fancy stats because of penalty killing. At 5v5 he's never been better.

Makar has had better seasons than Fox, including this one. Fox has certainly had better seasons than Makar. Drawing that comparison is somewhat pointless because you're comparing a generational offensive talent to a generational defensive talent.

People compare Makar to Bobby Orr. The only player in NHL history to have Fox's role and level of defensive effectiveness, and put up points at the level he does, is Nicklas Lidstrom. Again, kind of a "pick your poison" comparison.

 

[noncents]

I don't think many people outside of this board would take Fox over Makar. Not bashing Fox but come on Makar is at a level above. I have said that for years. Col has 2 of the fastest guys in the league in Makar and Nate. Must be so fun to have that kind of elite speed.

now add necas

 

[TheDirtyH]

Fox, on his game, is the best defensive player in the NHL. I'm not one of these people who thinks Makar is terrible defensively -- he ranges from mediocre to pretty good year to year. But he's nowhere near Fox in that department.

Fox is having a down year offensively, and really, it's just with goal-scoring. I think that has a lot to do with his partner and the fact that the team is playing 4v5 in the offensive zone.

Defensively, Fox is taking the hardest usage on the team, with a partner who is objectively terrible at suppressing offense, and he suppresses offense at levels that are frankly uncharted. Nobody has done this with a partner this bad. Probably ever.

Only 37 players in the league have a better 5v5 +/- than Fox. You know how many are #1 defenseman? None of them. He's the only player in the league who gets the results he does as exposed as he is.

His defensive WAR is taking a huge ding this year from penalty killing, but penalty killing results change with the wind. The efficacy of penalty killing is honestly limited outside of goaltending and luck.

When Fox is on the ice, the Rangers score 62% of the goals. When Lindgren is on the ice, the Rangers score 48% of the goals. Yes, they play together. It's goals -- it literally happened. To create a 14% gap with your partner is nothing short of black magic. That means the Rangers are pretty much Team Canada when Fox is on the ice and Lindgren isn't. They're pretty close to being Team Canada when Fox is on the ice, period.

Like I said, his defense is taking a "hit" this year if you look at the real fancy stats because of penalty killing. At 5v5 he's never been better.

Makar has had better seasons than Fox, including this one. Fox has certainly had better seasons than Makar. Drawing that comparison is somewhat pointless because you're comparing a generational offensive talent to a generational defensive talent.

People compare Makar to Bobby Orr. The only player in NHL history to have Fox's role and level of defensive effectiveness, and put up points at the level he does, is Nicklas Lidstrom. Again, kind of a "pick your poison" comparison.

Perfectly put. And for the record @leetch99 I think Makar is the better player overall too. I just take issue with the "can't hold his jock strap" take. Maybe in a race, but as hockey players its Makar, Q. Hughes, Fox and everyone else.

People have hooked onto this narrative bc fox is small and puts up points thats he's comparable to the guys who were like that historically: like rafalski or Campbell, guys you expect to be fleet of foot ala Makar or Hughes. But fox is truly a unicorn. A top of the world shutdown defenseman who can run a PP as good as anyone in the sport. Lidstrom is probably the closest comparable stylistically, but it's still not perfect. Fox is pretty much one of one bc he probably couldn't have existed in another era of the sport, for a number of reasons.

 

[Gordon Bombay]

Fox, on his game, is the best defensive player in the NHL. I'm not one of these people who thinks Makar is terrible defensively -- he ranges from mediocre to pretty good year to year. But he's nowhere near Fox in that department.

Fox is having a down year offensively, and really, it's just with goal-scoring. I think that has a lot to do with his partner and the fact that the team is playing 4v5 in the offensive zone.

Defensively, Fox is taking the hardest usage on the team, with a partner who is objectively terrible at suppressing offense, and he suppresses offense at levels that are frankly uncharted. Nobody has done this with a partner this bad. Probably ever.

Only 37 players in the league have a better 5v5 +/- than Fox. You know how many are #1 defenseman? None of them. He's the only player in the league who gets the results he does as exposed as he is.

His defensive WAR is taking a huge ding this year from penalty killing, but penalty killing results change with the wind. The efficacy of penalty killing is honestly limited outside of goaltending and luck.

When Fox is on the ice, the Rangers score 62% of the goals. When Lindgren is on the ice, the Rangers score 48% of the goals. Yes, they play together. It's goals -- it literally happened. To create a 14% gap with your partner is nothing short of black magic. That means the Rangers are pretty much Team Canada when Fox is on the ice and Lindgren isn't. They're pretty close to being Team Canada when Fox is on the ice, period.

Like I said, his defense is taking a "hit" this year if you look at the real fancy stats because of penalty killing. At 5v5 he's never been better.

Makar has had better seasons than Fox, including this one. Fox has certainly had better seasons than Makar. Drawing that comparison is somewhat pointless because you're comparing a generational offensive talent to a generational defensive talent.

People compare Makar to Bobby Orr. The only player in NHL history to have Fox's role and level of defensive effectiveness, and put up points at the level he does, is Nicklas Lidstrom. Again, kind of a "pick your poison" comparison.

I truly hope we all get to experience just one year of Fox without the worst player of all time on his pair.

I will say as well that I don’t think Fox ever fully recovered from the Jenson knee on knee this offseason. I think next year we see a more “spry” Fox

 

[Machinehead]

I truly hope we all get to experience just one year of Fox without the worst player of all time on his pair.

I will say as well that I don’t think Fox ever fully recovered from the Jenson knee on knee this offseason. I think next year we see a more “spry” Fox

I do think the knee hits have been a factor. I also think he's adapting his game to defend more. He can say he likes Lindgren all he wants; he knows he's playing two positions in the lizard part of his brain.

You could get him somebody really sound on the left and set him free, but I'd be interested in leaning into his defense and getting somebody who can score to play on his left side.

 

[Rongomania]

Fox, on his game, is the best defensive player in the NHL. I'm not one of these people who thinks Makar is terrible defensively -- he ranges from mediocre to pretty good year to year. But he's nowhere near Fox in that department.

Fox is having a down year offensively, and really, it's just with goal-scoring. I think that has a lot to do with his partner and the fact that the team is playing 4v5 in the offensive zone.

Defensively, Fox is taking the hardest usage on the team, with a partner who is objectively terrible at suppressing offense, and he suppresses offense at levels that are frankly uncharted. Nobody has done this with a partner this bad. Probably ever.

Only 37 players in the league have a better 5v5 +/- than Fox. You know how many are #1 defenseman? None of them. He's the only player in the league who gets the results he does as exposed as he is.

His defensive WAR is taking a huge ding this year from penalty killing, but penalty killing results change with the wind. The efficacy of penalty killing is honestly limited outside of goaltending and luck.

When Fox is on the ice, the Rangers score 62% of the goals. When Lindgren is on the ice, the Rangers score 48% of the goals. Yes, they play together. It's goals -- it literally happened. To create a 14% gap with your partner is nothing short of black magic. That means the Rangers are pretty much Team Canada when Fox is on the ice and Lindgren isn't. They're pretty close to being Team Canada when Fox is on the ice, period.

Like I said, his defense is taking a "hit" this year if you look at the real fancy stats because of penalty killing. At 5v5 he's never been better.

Makar has had better seasons than Fox, including this one. Fox has certainly had better seasons than Makar. Drawing that comparison is somewhat pointless because you're comparing a generational offensive talent to a generational defensive talent.

People compare Makar to Bobby Orr. The only player in NHL history to have Fox's role and level of defensive effectiveness, and put up points at the level he does, is Nicklas Lidstrom. Again, kind of a "pick your poison" comparison.

1000% this generations Lidstrom.

And honestly, it gives ‘Hank’ to me. If Hank was on those 90’s devils teams he puts up better numbers than Brodeur. Just as if Fox was glued to Mack and Rants he’d have bigger numbers.

 

[leetch99]

Perfectly put. And for the record @leetch99 I think Makar is the better player overall too. I just take issue with the "can't hold his jock strap" take. Maybe in a race, but as hockey players its Makar, Q. Hughes, Fox and everyone else.

People have hooked onto this narrative bc fox is small and puts up points thats he's comparable to the guys who were like that historically: like rafalski or Campbell, guys you expect to be fleet of foot ala Makar or Hughes. But fox is truly a unicorn. A top of the world shutdown defenseman who can run a PP as good as anyone in the sport. Lidstrom is probably the closest comparable stylistically, but it's still not perfect. Fox is pretty much one of one bc he probably couldn't have existed in another era of the sport, for a number of reasons.

I think he is overrated and I will continue with my belief until proven wrong . I think it is a safe bet he never wins a Norris again . His skating seems slower and he seems really hesitant to shoot....or even think about physical contact it seems this season and I don't think Lindgren is his problem ....I think teams know his moves and style on the PP and as such there is little he can do within his physical dimensions to disable that factor , He is not going to suddenly get faster-smarter or younger-bigger.....and you simply can't blame that on Lindgren . He is small in stature/size and never was a great skater N/S . He does not shock and awe teams anymore . Maybe once he has somebody to help him out -bail him out....he will look better ? That seems to be what you were implying ? Yes...I agree...that should make him look better .

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Canes
Bruins
Golden Knights
Bruins
Penguins
Blue Jackets

6 games before the 4 nations break. Nut up or shut up time. IMO they need 9 points out of these games minimum or it's time to get serious about selling at the deadline.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

What a painful loss this one hurts

 

[TheDirtyH]

I think he is overrated and I will continue with my belief until proven wrong . I think it is a safe bet he never wins a Norris again . His skating seems slower and he seems really hesitant to shoot....or even think about physical contact it seems this season and I don't think Lindgren is his problem ....I think teams know his moves and style on the PP and as such there is little he can do within his physical dimensions to disable that factor , He is not going to suddenly get faster-smarter or younger-bigger.....and you simply can't blame that on Lindgren . He is small in stature/size and never was a great skater N/S . He does not shock and awe teams anymore . Maybe once he has somebody to help him out -bail him out....he will look better ? That seems to be what you were implying ? Yes...I agree...that should make him look better .

I'm arguing that I don't care how he looks and certainly I don't care at all if he wins the Norris again. He gets the same Norris caliber results season over season, Professional Hockey Writers' Association be damned.

So I don't really know what your point is. He's not throwing highlight reel jukes as often and somehow that matters? You don't seem to have an understanding of the player and what has ever made him successful so it's not surprising that you think he won't be effective moving forward.

Even just looking at the boxcar stats he's on pace for an almost identical scoring season to the year he won the Norris, and to you that signals a major decline apparently.