Boyle was a #1 offensively...that's it. He was not a #1 defensively. He was second pairing level.
Demers in the dog house?
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Boyle was a #1 offensively...that's it. He was not a #1 defensively. He was second pairing level.
Led Zappa
Tomorrow Today
So how many #1's are there, because by your definition even Vlasic isn't one. He may be defensively, but he definitely isn't offensively.
3 definitions to ponder.
#1 offensively should be around 50 pts. Some offensive #1's are Yandle, Campbell, Karlsson and Boyle and Markov in their heyday. Keith is becoming an offensive #1; he used to be both.
Defensively, gets top comp and overwhelming team relative plus/minus. Suter, Kronwall, McDonagh and Vlasic are examples. Chara is more a defensive #1 now as his offense was never quite there.
A pure #1 gets both and there aren't a lot. Playoff Doughty is a pure #1. Lidstrom, Nieds, Pronger. AP is close.
Eighth Fret
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Not many...
Suter
Weber
Doughty
Keith
Subban
Pietrangelo
Chara
McDonagh (if he replicates and builds on last year)
OEL
Karlsson
I'm probably forgetting some, but there aren't many true #1's out there.
CanadienShark
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I really don't get why people think there are less than 30 #1 d-men. It makes logical sense. It doesn't mean that each team is confined to one single #1 though. Make a top 30 list, and those are #1s. There is a specific group that you outlined (I'd drop Chara) that are elite #1s.
Eighth Fret
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Ondrej Pavelec is a starting goaltender, but would you call him a true starting goaltender in the NHL? It's obvious there is something else implied when people talk about true #1's vs. the best defenseman on a given team.
CanadienShark
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No, because there are 30 goaltenders that are better than him. And those that are in the 25-30 range are obviously poor #1s, but #1s nonetheless.
That's a chicken or the egg type of an argument to me. Is he really a #1 or just a #1 because he's playing that spot on a team? If a team has the depth to have two of the best d-men in the league, only one of them is playing their #1 spot yet I'm sure he's still a top 30 d-man but not playing that as a #1.
I mean, I understand what you're saying and I'm not saying you're wrong. It's just not how I evaluate the position. There aren't 30 #1's to me.
Eighth Fret
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Pavelec is the Jets' #1. He shouldn't be, but he is. He's their starter most nights.
Sure, every team has a #1 d-man by the literal definition, but that's not what people mean when they discuss true #1's.
CanadienShark
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I guess we can agree to disagree. I think that there are 30 #1s at every position. That said, those rankings are fluid and there is a ton of dispersion between #1 and #30.
The goaltender argument is the easiest. Look at what the GMs do. There is a turnover of approximately 5 starting goaltenders per year. Pretty easy to say that if you aren't in the top 25 then you aren't a #1 (getting ahead of the GMs). Thomas, Backstrom, Lack, Nabby and Brodeur lost their positions this past off season. My own take is that Lehtonen and Pavelec have been hanging around the #25 spot for a long time.
We have argued about the #1 definition before and all have come to agree that there are a variety of definitions. It is better to state your own definition before you begin the rest of your argument. Or at least the definition for purposes of the argument.
On your argument, you would be hard pressed to say that the Isles, Devils, Oil, Avs, Stars or the Flyers have a #1. Minimally a #1 should be seeing ~23min TOI. That 23min doesn't happen on teams without at least a pseudo #1.
hohosaregood
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That's not his argument about the #1D. He's saying that within the league, the top 30 defensemen can be considered the #1s in the league as it is. Some teams have #1s, some teams have more than one and some teams don't.
Also, I find it hard to believe that you think Lehtonen is fluttering around 25. Lehtonen's a beast.
Lack of shutouts. He's got holes all over, like a sieve. He's better than Pavelec, but not much.
hohosaregood
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To me, SOs are statistical outliers. You could string a bunch of awful starts and a single SO will boost it to normal. On the other hand, a lack of shutouts would indicate a goalie's ability to play a consistent game and in Lehtonen's case, that'd be a consistently high level of play.
CanadienShark
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Led Zappa
Tomorrow Today
I agree as well, that's why you have to ask sometimes. A few people here write #1 and mean elite IMO. Sometimes #1 reads as top pairing as well.
When you have that many games, they aren't outliers any more. You might want to take a look at Dallas's GAA this year. I have watched him a lot over the years; he is so holy he makes the pope look like an atheist.
CanadienShark,
Would you really consider Boychuk a #1? He was no higher than a #3 if he stayed with Boston. And please tell me who is the #1 for the Oil.
Eighth Fret
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I doubt that is his argument. If it were, then why would he be saying there are 30 (is it just a coincidence that there are 30 teams in the league)? He's implying that every team has a #1, which is just not true (again, using the definition that most of us use when we talk about true #1's).
CanadienShark
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Yeah, I don't like those definitions, as it makes it somewhat arbitrary and even more difficult to define. That's why I stick to there being 30 #1s, but a great level of dispersion from say Weber to Faulk (just examples).
hohosaregood
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Well CanadienShark just confirmed that's what he meant. The justification for 30 #1 guys is because there are 30 teams and if there was a perfect distribution of defensemen to those teams there would be one #1 guy on each team but it just so happens that the distribution of defensemen who could be #1 guys is not perfectly even and so some teams have more than one of the top 30 defenseman in the league, some have only one, and plenty have none.
As far as I can tell, there are generally three definitions for #1 defensemen or centers.
1. Top 30 guys in the league period
2. Top guy on your team like some people would argue for Bozak
3. Elite players
Boychuk was under appreciated in Boston and the isles are significantly better after acquiring him
I agree on both points, but the Isles defense was a trainwreck before the trades. Lubo was too often injured and old and Hamonic was the only legit top 4. Boychuk is a good trigger although he is not a QB.
Eighth Fret
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He said the opposite -- every team has a #1, hence why he feels there are 30 #1's, but that there is huge disparity in the quality of #1's going from a team like the Kings to a team like the Oilers.
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