Defensemen who have led their team in scoring?

[VMBM]

Put it this way...Langway was voted to '84 Canada Cup All star list despite playing on a losing USA team.
He really was THAT good defensively.

???

In almost every Canada Cup there were players on the All-Star team from countries that did not make it to the final: Maltsev and Salming in 1976, Kadlec in 1981, Myshkin, Makarov (and Langway) in 1984 etc. And Team USA finished 2nd in the round-robin standings in the 1984 CC. They did lose their SF game quite badly, but anyhoo...

 

[Rhiessan71]

???

In almost every Canada Cup there were players on the All-Star team from countries that did not make it to the final: Maltsev and Salming in 1976, Kadlec in 1981, Myshkin, Makarov (and Langway) in 1984 etc. And Team USA finished 2nd in the round-robin standings in the 1984 CC. They did lose their SF game quite badly, but anyhoo...

And how many of them were elected purely on defense?
The guy had all of 2 points, 2!

Like seriously, how much does one have to stand out defensively to receive that kind of honour and be placed where he was amongst that group and competition level?

It's actually pretty crazy when you really think about it.

 

[kmad]

Found a source that lists top scorers for every franchise going back to 1967. Done all but the original six (minus the Rangers which was done by someone in here).

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

Sprague Cleghorn with the Montreal Canadiens in 1921-22. He's the only defenseman to have led the Canadiens in points though that could change this year with P.K Subban.

 

[kmad]

I know Dit Clapper played as a forward and a defenseman. He led the Bruins in scoring in 1931/32, I can assume he was a forward then?

 

[kmad]

All done

 

[VMBM]

And how many of them were elected purely on defense?
The guy had all of 2 points, 2!

Well, Arnold Kadlec in 1981 at least (3 pts in 6 games, and was not exactly known as an offensive dman). It could be also mentioned that Viacheslav Fetisov did not play in the 1984 CC.
Not trying to belittle Langway's accomplishment, but IMO it is not overly remarkable.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Well, Arnold Kadlec in 1981 at least (3 pts in 6 games, and was not exactly known as an offensive dman). It could be also mentioned that Viacheslav Fetisov did not play in the 1984 CC.
Not trying to belittle Langway's accomplishment, but IMO it is not overly remarkable.

Have to disagree, it was quite remarkable.
This was during the high flying 80's when everything was offense, offense, offense. Not like in Lidstrom's glory days where he had help with every player on his team playing defensively responsible hockey and he had goalies that rarely got beat from long shots and bad angles.

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

Ruotsalainen was moved up to forward that year

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

From the OP:

Montreal Maroons:
1932/33 - Baldy Northcott

Do you you have a reason to believe he played defense that season? I know he's sometimes listed as a LW/D, but I have never seen any indication of if and when he actually played D.

I know Dit Clapper played as a forward and a defenseman. He led the Bruins in scoring in 1931/32, I can assume he was a forward then?

Yes, he was a forward then.

 

[Crease]

Ruotsalainen was moved up to forward that year

Interesting. I didn't know this until you said something, so I did some research. According to Reijo's bio he played 32 games that season at left wing with Mark Pavelich and Anders Hedberg.

 

[IComeInPeace]

I don't know much about Rod Langway, but how the hell did he win the Norris in 82-83 and 83-84 with Coffey 70 and 100pts ahead? Was Langway just a defensive beast or did they figure it wasn't fair how Coffey was almost a 4th forward? I think Coffey got screwed.

He was in fact a defensive beast.

I'd also throw in a couple of other factors:

#1
There was always kind of a reoccurring theme that the Norris had gotten very far removed from what it's initial intent was; it was simply being awarded to the best offensive d-man year after year (kind of what's happened with the Selke over the years...it used to be the best defensive forward; now, the best defensive forward has to put up good numbers too)...

#2
The Cap's were a horrendous organization from day 1.
Langway helped to turn the franchise around. From league doormats, to 94 points in his first season, to 101 in his second.

#3
The competition.
Dennis Potvin, the best d-man at the time, had seen his numbers drop. It was harder to justify voting for someone in that position (and maybe it shouldn't have been).

After Potvin, the best 2 way d-man that season may have been Dave Babych, in the 'Peg. Was that a Norris caliber season (esp when you consider he played in Winnipeg when media coverage was a lot more limited than today).

The best offensive d-man was Coffey. He was seen as a one trick pony, and largely responsible for the 'backlash' against simply voting for the highest scoring d-man.

Would we see a guy who was strictly a defensive 'beast' win the Norris today with a 20 point season?
I can't see that ever happening in today's game.
I think even a guy like that would have to have a better offensive season than Langway did that yr.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

^ i thought young babych was atrocious on the defensive side of the game?

 

[seventieslord]

^ i thought young babych was atrocious on the defensive side of the game?

all indications are that he was.

 

[kmad]

Do you you have a reason to believe he played defense that season? I know he's sometimes listed as a LW/D, but I have never seen any indication of if and when he actually played D.

Got that info from NHL.com. Gonna change him and Ruotsalainen.

 

[VMBM]

Have to disagree, it was quite remarkable.
This was during the high flying 80's when everything was offense, offense, offense.

Then Kadlec in 1981 must have been pretty remarkable too.

In 1983 and 1984 Langway won the Norris award, so him being named to the Canada Cup All-Star team in 1984 is hardly surprising - not that he didn't deserve it, of course. The respect for defensive dmen was clearly there around this time.

 

[67 others]

Have to disagree, it was quite remarkable.
This was during the high flying 80's when everything was offense, offense, offense. Not like in Lidstrom's glory days where he had help with every player on his team playing defensively responsible hockey and he had goalies that rarely got beat from long shots and bad angles.

yes, the position was completely different to play then. different strategies applied and you could not play the way they do today. i loved watching the evolution of our team

 

[MS]

I don't know much about Rod Langway, but how the hell did he win the Norris in 82-83 and 83-84 with Coffey 70 and 100pts ahead? Was Langway just a defensive beast or did they figure it wasn't fair how Coffey was almost a 4th forward? I think Coffey got screwed.

He was a defensive beast and is frequently considered one of the better defensive defensemen of all time, and I would imagine a large part of that is based on his Norris years, and received a large amount of credit for the defensive turnaround in Washington but there was certainly some element of backlash against the Norris going to the best scoring defenseman because of the Doug Wilson and Randy Carlyle Norris wins which preceded Langway's. Langway also finished 4th, 2nd in MVP voting in his Norris years, and then 4th when he was 3rd place for the Norris the next year.

Bourque also had a pretty amazing season in 83-84 to not win.

Langway was just a terrible choice for the 1983 and 1984 Norris.

As noted, there was a major backlash after Carlyle and Wilson won in '81 and '82, basically for being the highest-scoring defender in the league. And the voters didn't want to keep that trend alive by giving the award to Coffey.

But instead of being reasonable and voting for the best player, the voters completely over-compensated the other direction in giving the award to Langway.

The best defenders in the league from 1982-84 were Denis Potvin and Mark Howe. Elite offensive players while being top-5 in the league defensively - complete players who dominated at both ends of the rink.

There's no way that Langway was so far defensively ahead of Potvin (probably the 2nd best defensive defender in the league at the time) that it negated the extra 50 points/year that Potvin was scoring.

 

[seventieslord]

Langway was just a terrible choice for the 1983 and 1984 Norris.

As noted, there was a major backlash after Carlyle and Wilson won in '81 and '82, basically for being the highest-scoring defender in the league. And the voters didn't want to keep that trend alive by giving the award to Coffey.

But instead of being reasonable and voting for the best player, the voters completely over-compensated the other direction in giving the award to Langway.

The best defenders in the league from 1982-84 were Denis Potvin and Mark Howe. Elite offensive players while being top-5 in the league defensively - complete players who dominated at both ends of the rink.

There's no way that Langway was so far defensively ahead of Potvin (probably the 2nd best defensive defender in the league at the time) that it negated the extra 50 points/year that Potvin was scoring.

I had completely lost interest in this topic, I only came back in because I saw you had replied.

...and yeah, you're right. Everything seems to indicate those were the two best all-around defensemen at that time. Bourque had to have been more of an all-around force than Langway too though, no?

 

[Boom Boom Bear]

^ i thought young babych was atrocious on the defensive side of the game?

mos def.

in his rookie year, he led the league with an astonishing -61.
from 80-86, he was consistently top 10 in total goals on ice against, & is 10th all time, having been on ice for a whopping 1754 goals scored against his team while he stood around watching.

The Baggage was a very frustrating player to watch if you followed the Jets or Whalers back in the day

 

[Dark Shadows]

I had completely lost interest in this topic, I only came back in because I saw you had replied.

...and yeah, you're right. Everything seems to indicate those were the two best all-around defensemen at that time. Bourque had to have been more of an all-around force than Langway too though, no?

83-84 by today's standards, Bourque wins that Norris. Already rock solid defensively and putting up 96 points. Lead his team with +51, over the next best +27. Second best PK in the league, Mike O'Connell, Milbury and Bourque splitting duties on it, and one of the top Power plays in the league, quarterbacked by Bourque and very good 5 on 5.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Langway was just a terrible choice for the 1983 and 1984 Norris.

As noted, there was a major backlash after Carlyle and Wilson won in '81 and '82, basically for being the highest-scoring defender in the league. And the voters didn't want to keep that trend alive by giving the award to Coffey.

But instead of being reasonable and voting for the best player, the voters completely over-compensated the other direction in giving the award to Langway.

The best defenders in the league from 1982-84 were Denis Potvin and Mark Howe. Elite offensive players while being top-5 in the league defensively - complete players who dominated at both ends of the rink.

There's no way that Langway was so far defensively ahead of Potvin (probably the 2nd best defensive defender in the league at the time) that it negated the extra 50 points/year that Potvin was scoring.

I think we all agree he was amazing defensively, but yeah.

The Hart consideration was more important than the norris there.

 

[Vaclav Varada]

Karlsson didn't lead the Sens in points in 11/12. Spezza did.

 

[kmad]

Karlsson didn't lead the Sens in points in 11/12. Spezza did.

Fixed!

 

[Hardyvan123]

He was in fact a defensive beast.

I'd also throw in a couple of other factors:

#1
There was always kind of a reoccurring theme that the Norris had gotten very far removed from what it's initial intent was; it was simply being awarded to the best offensive d-man year after year (kind of what's happened with the Selke over the years...it used to be the best defensive forward; now, the best defensive forward has to put up good numbers too)...

#2
The Cap's were a horrendous organization from day 1.
Langway helped to turn the franchise around. From league doormats, to 94 points in his first season, to 101 in his second.

#3
The competition.
Dennis Potvin, the best d-man at the time, had seen his numbers drop. It was harder to justify voting for someone in that position (and maybe it shouldn't have been).

After Potvin, the best 2 way d-man that season may have been Dave Babych, in the 'Peg. Was that a Norris caliber season (esp when you consider he played in Winnipeg when media coverage was a lot more limited than today).

The best offensive d-man was Coffey. He was seen as a one trick pony, and largely responsible for the 'backlash' against simply voting for the highest scoring d-man.

Would we see a guy who was strictly a defensive 'beast' win the Norris today with a 20 point season?
I can't see that ever happening in today's game.
I think even a guy like that would have to have a better offensive season than Langway did that yr.

Pretty good post, although while Langway was a beast on D that season in Washington there were alot of positive changes (including fellow trade mates Jarvis, Laughlin and Brian Engblom who finished 6th in Norris voting the previous season in Montreal) other than Langway including a young (and very good for an 18 year old rookie) Scott Stevens, along with a very good Gaetan Duchesne.

Rod was a great defensive Dman but his myth and legend were even more than he was IMO.