Prospect Info: David Reinbacher

[Jaynki]

Belief isn't evidence. I believe they would have been even better, even sooner. That's my evidence.

Hugues and Stutzle ended superstar taking the road you deem will ruin Slaf.

Those are facts. Not belief.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Where did i argued that you can't have development in the NHL?

Its actually my argument : If you have NHL skills and have the physical maturity, there is no better place to develop than the NHL.

Most good players only reach their ceiling in their D+5/6/7 so development within the NHL exists and it is obvious. The only judgment call is how good do you have to be when entering the NHL to benefit more from being in the NHL?

Most NHL teams choose to graduate players into the NHL when they show they can be in the top 11 or 12 forwards and top 6 or maybe 5 defencemen. I agree with this. Several vocal posters here insist the bar should be higher but their jobs don't depend on drawing the line right.

 

[Jaynki]

This is so wrong headed, I don't know where to begin. How do you think people develop confidence to begin with?

You can be the most confident guy in the world and not make the NHL.

Guys who make the NHL are ones who can demonstrate results. Those results in turn usually produce confidence in the player. Confidence doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Lafleur talked about it a lot. If you don't have confidence in yourself, you will never produce. You need opportunity. Opportunity leads to success. This leads to confidence and - hopefully - better results.

What are you learning by being called up to the NHL and sitting on the bench? What are you learning when you're played with scrubs for five minutes a night? You're learning that maybe you weren't as good as you thought you were. Doubt creeps in. Results fall off. We saw this over and over here.

I'm very confident that Joshua Roy would've been called up by now under MB. He'd probably have been used on the 4th line with scrubs. That's the way we did things here. Do you think his time in the Q was wasted? Do you think he didn't progress during this time? Do you think he's better for his time there? I do.

Joshua Roy does not have NHL skills as it is right now. Therefore, since he cant cut it right now, he will have to distinguish himself in the AHL, if his career dont go to die there, to have an NHL career. Such is the hard way for most of the young players.

When Joshua Roy will display NHL skills, he won't marinate in the minor. He has not.

The difference is that Slaf has.

As for your 4th paragraph, NHL fringe players will remain NHL fringe players even if they mature in the AHL. I dont know what else to say really. NHL is extremely contingented.

On Lafleur, he said it well, if you don't have confidence in yourself, you will never produce. Exactly what i say, confidence is not the by-product of performance, its the other way around.

I do agree and understand that player can go on hot streak or cold streak. That the mindset can shift and be at times broken. Thats not the inner confidence i am talking.

Caufield under DD vs Caufield under MSL is an example of that.

Would you say that a Porsche lost its power if it simply had a flat tire?

Caufield did not lost his inner confidence. He's like the Porsche who had a small broken piece. He needed a maintenance. A mindset shift.

To be a top tier athlete like that, your mental skill need to be on point to sustain this pressure and this status. Obviously the mindset is variable and they are humans and can go through tough times. Thats not losing your confidence. But yes, players may sometimes benefit from a spark to shift the mindset.

Performance will indeed lead to a better mindset. No doubt. But the inner confidence i am talking is not built by performing in the AHL (one of the argument we hear to have Slaf in the AHL). Its a mental skills that is worked and honed in the mind first and foremost.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Joshua Roy does not have NHL skills as it is right now. I am less high on him than most here and i think he is still far from the NHL. Therefore, since he cant cut it right now, he will have to distinguish himself in the AHL, if his career dont go to die there, to have an NHL career.

No, this is wrong. You don't learn how to play in the NHL by playing outside of the NHL.

 

[Jaynki]

No, this is wrong. You don't learn how to play in the NHL by playing outside of the NHL.

Agree with your sarcasm

But to play in the NHL first and foremost you need to have the skillset and to be able to sustain the physicality.

 

[ReHabs]

To that i counter argue : when you have an NHL skillset and the physical maturity to handle the pace of the game, which i belief Slaf has, there is no environment better than the NHL to learn the game and develop.

Slaf did not have an NHL skillset, he did not have a Liiga skillset either. You got caught by me earlier when you tried to pass off a statement that went “Slaf dominated every level he played all his career”. No, he didn’t dominate Liiga and he didn’t dominate the NHL.

Slaf didn’t have the physical ability to play in the NHL either. He got rocked by Marco Rossi who is half his size.

Slaf was behind the play often enough that he couldn’t utilize his talents. That’s the biggest indicator that he was in over his head.

Hugues and Stutzle ended superstar taking the road you deem will ruin Slaf.

Those are facts. Not belief.

Both were much better, more mature, more skilled, and more proven prospects than Slafkovsky.

Agree with your sarcasm

But to play in the NHL first and foremost you need to have the skillset and to be able to sustain the physicality.

Slafkovsky had neither.

 

[ReHabs]

I understand the argument. I'm wondering if you can give some examples of a player you believe any team other than Montreal ruined by having made the NHL young.

I don’t follow other teams to know which prospects they own much less which ones they’ve ruined. But take a step back and look at the macro-picture: it’s a violent sport, the speed is different in the NHL than elsewhere, there aren’t many teenagers in the league at any given moment, ever.

All three things are true and all three things indicate teenagers and the immature (physical, mental, emotional, or professionally immature all count) are not going to feature in the NHL.

NHL teams would love it if teenagers could play at NHL levels. They’re cheap and replaceable and don’t carry any injury or professional baggage. NHL teams tend to have 0 teenagers on their roster for a reason: teenagers aren’t strong, quick, stable, or professionally fit enough to compete with other professional players.

This discussion is hard to square with reality, sorry folks.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I don’t follow other teams to know which prospects they own much less which ones they’ve ruined. But take a step back and look at the macro-picture: it’s a violent sport, the speed is different in the NHL than elsewhere, there aren’t many teenagers in the league at any given moment, ever.

All three things are true and all three things indicate teenagers and the immature (physical, mental, emotional, or professionally immature all count) are not going to feature in the NHL.

NHL teams would love it if teenagers could play at NHL levels. They’re cheap and replaceable and don’t carry any injury or professional baggage. NHL teams tend to have 0 teenagers on their roster for a reason: teenagers aren’t strong, quick, stable, or professionally fit enough to compete with other professional players.

This discussion is hard to square with reality, sorry folks.

All those things are true,which is why players playing in the NHL before 20 are rare.

But your statements did not offer any examples of those exceptional players who got the chance before 20 getting ruined due to that decision. Don't sAy Yakupov or Galchenyuk, they were different cases entirely. We know about Mete. We know KK was mistreated but not ruined.
So, anyone else?

 

[ReHabs]

All those things are true,which is why players playing in the NHL before 20 are rare.

But your statements did not offer any examples of those exceptional players who got the chance before 20 getting ruined due to that decision. Don't sAy Yakupov or Galchenyuk, they were different cases entirely. We know about Mete. We know KK was mistreated but not ruined.
So, anyone else?

You’re asking me to provide evidence of a negative.

The statements I made are true and you agree. If you and I agree then surely professionals across the rest of the NHL aware of this and likewise agree. Call it first principles. It is an unavoidable fact that the NHL is the highest and most competitive league of this sport, it follows that the physical and physiological demands it places on athletes would be higher than any other league in which they could play.

Therefore there won’t be many examples of teenagers getting rushed and busting because most of the NHL generally understands the above first principles and respects the fact that teenagers will struggle with the demands of the NHL.

We saw Slafkovsky struggle in the NHL just last year.

 

[montreal]

Every time I see someone use the word ruin when talking prospects it reminds me of the tank thread where fans think that tanking means you tell the players to go out and lose. It just shows how out of their depth a lot of posters are, and they should be, it's not like that many people have the free time and energy plus expenses to watch, follow, read, talk hockey.

 

[jiboy]

I have missed the game versus Buffalo , how did Reinbacher look ? Cant find anything in the last 10 pages about his performance

 

[HabzSauce]

I have missed the game versus Buffalo , how did Reinbacher look ? Cant find anything in the last 10 pages about his performance

Sorry wrong thread. This is the development thread

 

[ZUKI]

I have missed the game versus Buffalo , how did Reinbacher look ? Cant find anything in the last 10 pages about his performance

i think that 20 pages back, there was a comment about is first shift, telling us he wasn't dominant and therefore a bust material

 

[OnTheRun]

I have missed the game versus Buffalo , how did Reinbacher look ? Cant find anything in the last 10 pages about his performance

He played a pretty conservative game, kind of what should be expected from someone playing in his first game of NA hockey.

 

[HomaridII]

He was invisible in the second game, the kid is a bust.

P.S: I know he didn't play lol

 

[ReimanSum1908]

You’re asking me to provide evidence of a negative.

I find the request to "show me a prospect who was ruined by being brought up too early" so unfathomably odd because answering it in the way that those demanding it seem to intend would require us to delve into an alternate universe to know that this prospect would have made it otherwise.

However, it should be obvious that the zone of proximal development for skills exists in all field wherein players are placed in prime locations and levels to ensure that they are challenged but not overwhelmed, while being given extensive in-game experience, rather than toiling away for a few minutes a night, all while being behind the play and failing to leverage what talents they have.

As for players who almost assuredly had their careers hampered by being forced into positions for which they were not prepared - as, either way, we can only speculate because *knowledge* would require us to peer into alternate worlds - there are a dozen examples from our own team, some of whom have been identified and dismissed.

Claiming otherwise - that limited minutes wherein a player is being dominated can somehow be more beneficial than playing within that zone of proximal development - seems simply irrational in light of what we know of skills acquisition, physical development, and human psychology.

Galchenyuk and Kostitsyn were susceptible to egotism that the unearned reward of being elevated to the NHL level prematurely doubtlessly exacerbated.

Latendresse, having entered into the league with a large frame but still a teenager's underlying body despite his weight and height, suffered myriad injuries in part due to that lack of preparedness - like Slaf, possibly, who may be on the same path - which eventually culminated in the early end to his career, one bolstered by a half season of synergy with Martin Havlat's playmaking ability.

 

[DAChampion]

Galchenyuk and Kostitsyn were susceptible to egotism that the unearned reward of being elevated to the NHL level prematurely doubtlessly exacerbated.

Latendresse, having entered into the league with a large frame but still a teenager's underlying body despite his weight and height, suffered myriad injuries in part due to that lack of preparedness - like Slaf, possibly, who may be on the same path - which eventually culminated in the early end to his career, one bolstered by a half season of synergy with Martin Havlat's playmaking ability.

Thought provoking examples.

It is true, for example, that Galchenyuk's immaturity contributed to the failure of his career -- it might have helped if he had not made the big show for another two years. He was actually seen as a character guy, and maybe he was relative to most 18 year olds, but he was not ready to be a celebrity.

 

[KevSkillz4]

I just want to made a mea culpa for the fact I wanted a forward with that high pick. I'm 100% hype right now with David Reinbacher. I don't know that he is fast like this and have much good offensive instinct in him!

Guhle and Reinbacher are both stud's in my eye's. They will lead a very good defensive group for many years to come!

 

[Jaynki]

Slaf did not have an NHL skillset, he did not have a Liiga skillset either. You got caught by me earlier when you tried to pass off a statement that went “Slaf dominated every level he played all his career”. No, he didn’t dominate Liiga and he didn’t dominate the NHL.

Slaf didn’t have the physical ability to play in the NHL either. He got rocked by Marco Rossi who is half his size.

Slaf was behind the play often enough that he couldn’t utilize his talents. That’s the biggest indicator that he was in over his head.


Both were much better, more mature, more skilled, and more proven prospects than Slafkovsky.


Slafkovsky had neither.

ReHabs! Its been a while. I hope you had a nice summer.

We disagree on Slafkovsky NHL readyness. I think we skinned the cat here.

Lets use 18YO Stutzle then for my next question

Do we agree that 18YO Stutzle development can happen in the NHL and that it is the best environment for a young talented player like him to develop? After all, he had high end NHL skills and he was physically mature enough to sustain the pace of the game.

Do you think 18YO Stutzle would have been better served in the sad AHL where career goes to die, having more offensive opportunities?

I just want to made a mea culpa for the fact I wanted a forward with that high pick. I'm 100% hype right now with David Reinbacher. I don't know that he is fast like this and have much good offensive instinct in him!

Guhle and Reinbacher are both stud's in my eye's. They will lead a very good defensive group for many years to come!

You are forgiven.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Joshua Roy does not have NHL skills as it is right now. Therefore, since he cant cut it right now, he will have to distinguish himself in the AHL, if his career dont go to die there, to have an NHL career. Such is the hard way for most of the young players.

When Joshua Roy will display NHL skills, he won't marinate in the minor. He has not.

The difference is that Slaf has.

As for your 4th paragraph, NHL fringe players will remain NHL fringe players even if they mature in the AHL. I dont know what else to say really. NHL is extremely contingented.

On Lafleur, he said it well, if you don't have confidence in yourself, you will never produce. Exactly what i say, confidence is not the by-product of performance, its the other way around.

I do agree and understand that player can go on hot streak or cold streak. That the mindset can shift and be at times broken. Thats not the inner confidence i am talking.

Caufield under DD vs Caufield under MSL is an example of that.

Would you say that a Porsche lost its power if it simply had a flat tire?

Caufield did not lost his inner confidence. He's like the Porsche who had a small broken piece. He needed a maintenance. A mindset shift.

To be a top tier athlete like that, your mental skill need to be on point to sustain this pressure and this status. Obviously the mindset is variable and they are humans and can go through tough times. Thats not losing your confidence. But yes, players may sometimes benefit from a spark to shift the mindset.

Performance will indeed lead to a better mindset. No doubt. But the inner confidence i am talking is not built by performing in the AHL (one of the argument we hear to have Slaf in the AHL). Its a mental skills that is worked and honed in the mind first and foremost.

That’s not what Lafleur said. He said that players need opportunity. When that happens, it leads to success and confidence grows.

If a player is 18 and ready to play in the top six - Bedard for example - fine. But that’s not what will happen with RB. It didn’t happen with Slaf last year either.

I see no reason to rush players to the NHL where they won’t get the kinds of opportunities they would in the minors.

One other thing. It’s a much better situation to have a player in the minors force you to bring him up. The flipsode is you bring him too early and then send him down… that’s not good for anyone.

Let them prove themselves first.

 

[BaseballCoach]

No, this is wrong. You don't learn how to play in the NHL by playing outside of the NHL.

Mostly true actually. You learn how to MAKE the NHL by playing outside the NHL. You learn how to excel in the NHL insiude the NHL, barring a handful of players every 20 years (Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid).

 

[NotProkofievian]

Mostly true actually. You learn how to MAKE the NHL by playing outside the NHL. You learn how to excel in the NHL insiude the NHL, barring a handful of players every 20 years (Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid).

No it's 100% true. Even those exceptions like Ovechkin, McDavid, Crosby learned how to play in the NHL within the first few minutes of stepping onto the NHL ice, their pre NHL careers did nothing to contribute to their success. That's why they're so good.

 

[BaseballCoach]

No it's 100% true. Even those exceptions like Ovechkin, McDavid, Crosby learned how to play in the NHL within the first few minutes of stepping onto the NHL ice, their pre NHL careers did nothing to contribute to their success. That's why they're so good.

This is getting silly.

Do you actually disagree with what I wrote?

 

[NotProkofievian]

This is getting silly.

Do you actually disagree with what I wrote?

Oh is it?

Do you disagree with what I wrote, is what I want to know.

 

[ReHabs]

ReHabs! Its been a while. I hope you had a nice summer.

We disagree on Slafkovsky NHL readyness. I think we skinned the cat here.

Lets use 18YO Stutzle then for my next question

Do we agree that 18YO Stutzle development can happen in the NHL and that it is the best environment for a young talented player like him to develop? After all, he had high end NHL skills and he was physically mature enough to sustain the pace of the game.

Do you think 18YO Stutzle would have been better served in the sad AHL where career goes to die, having more offensive opportunities?

Stutzle is an exceptional prospect and an exceptional player - especially in hindsight than at the time of the draft. He didn't struggle to stay in his D-year league, Slafkovsky was sent down multiple times and struggled mightily in his draft year. They're not the same tier of player today and not the same tier of prospect at any time in their respective careers. Slafkovsky might've styled on Team Kazakhstan toward the end of his D-year season but the sample size at these tournaments betrays the point -- he was never capable of making the jump to the NHL when just 6 months earlier he was struggling in Liiga.

Stutzle had double the ppg Slaf had in their respective rookie seasons. Different tier of player, different tier of prospect, different tier of career ahead of them.

The Habs, and some of you guys, disagree with the rest of us about Slafkovsky's readiness. So be it. If you're proven right we will all be joyous and celebrating this new paradigm in prospect development where they're thrown to the NHL asap. It'll save us cap space, give us a ton of flexibility in roster management, and allow us to pump out skilled players with ease.